Edit: Removed my post because it contributed nothing to the discussion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
An autopsy has found taht this kid’s death was not natural.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/14/bootcamp.death/
Sigh…as I expected people are still going to defend what happened and the cops. Im guessing you dfenders dont think the inital autopsy was a cover up or anything right? No, not at all! How fucking sad…
What bothers me is that the original autopsy was done that way so publically and no one is saying anything. It should be bringing into question many of these findings in other cases. What happened to integrity?[/quote]
It goes along the lines of “new” DNA evidence exonerated people that were wrongly accused or incarcerated that you talk about frequently. I hope the POS that performend the original autopsy, if one was actually done, is held responsible for his “mistake.” People need to be held responsible across the board for this. The people who “incorrectly” found a “different” cause of death and the officers who’s hands the kid was in.
It still doesn’t say what caused his death.
I will wait until that is determined before I call for these officers heads.
Too many people jumping to conclusions without enough info.
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Professor X wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
An autopsy has found taht this kid’s death was not natural.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/14/bootcamp.death/
Sigh…as I expected people are still going to defend what happened and the cops. Im guessing you dfenders dont think the inital autopsy was a cover up or anything right? No, not at all! How fucking sad…
What bothers me is that the original autopsy was done that way so publically and no one is saying anything. It should be bringing into question many of these findings in other cases. What happened to integrity?
It goes along the lines of “new” DNA evidence exonerated people that were wrongly accused or incarcerated that you talk about frequently. I hope the POS that performend the original autopsy, if one was actually done, is held responsible for his “mistake.” People need to be held responsible across the board for this. The people who “incorrectly” found a “different” cause of death and the officers who’s hands the kid was in.[/quote]
I wish you investigated ALL deaths, since you have the abiliy to tell exactly what happened from CNN reports. Good sleuthing old chap!
DB
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
I wish you investigated ALL deaths, since you have the abiliy to tell exactly what happened from CNN reports. Good sleuthing old chap!
DB[/quote]
Discovering cause of death is a science. If you allow personal judgement to cloud the findings, you can come up with the wrong conclusion. If you want to believe a victim died from head trauma, you might casually skip over the foam in their lungs showing drowning as the cause of death. From sickle cell to unnatural causes? It should bring forth more questions of how the original cause of death was determined falsely. Why do you think it shouldn’t?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
From sickle cell to unnatural causes? It should bring forth more questions of how the original cause of death was determined falsely. Why do you think it shouldn’t?[/quote]
Wait, thats too simple and obvious. People need, and will, find a way to make it more complicated than that…
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Professor X wrote:
From sickle cell to unnatural causes? It should bring forth more questions of how the original cause of death was determined falsely. Why do you think it shouldn’t?
Wait, thats too simple and obvious. People need, and will, find a way to make it more complicated than that…[/quote]
The family’s own expert said that he believes the original doctor doing the autopsy made a “mistake that can be made without bias”.
[quote]doogie wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Professor X wrote:
From sickle cell to unnatural causes? It should bring forth more questions of how the original cause of death was determined falsely. Why do you think it shouldn’t?
Wait, thats too simple and obvious. People need, and will, find a way to make it more complicated than that…
The family’s own expert said that he believes the original doctor doing the autopsy made a “mistake that can be made without bias”. [/quote]
How do you mistake sickle cell?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Professor X wrote:
From sickle cell to unnatural causes? It should bring forth more questions of how the original cause of death was determined falsely. Why do you think it shouldn’t?
Wait, thats too simple and obvious. People need, and will, find a way to make it more complicated than that…
The family’s own expert said that he believes the original doctor doing the autopsy made a “mistake that can be made without bias”.
How do you mistake sickle cell? [/quote]
Ask the family’s expert. He thinks it’s possible.
Also, I like how you left out the whole quote:
“Baden said that while he believes Siebert made a “mistake that can be made without bias,” outside pressures and racial bias would be looked into as possible factors.”
Clearly, they think that everything was not done by the book and are simply covering the other doc’s ass. At least, that is what I get from that statement.
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Yeah thats right I’m calling these punk ass mother fucking cops, pigs. I hate people like this and I hope they suffer the same fate. Punk asses with badges. And then the medical examiner covers for them? Watch the video, its pretty fucked up.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/17/bootcamp.death/index.html[/quote]
Wasn’t there an issue a few years ago in regard to Police Departments turning down applicants who scored too high on the pre-qual exams? Too intelligent for the job?
[quote]doogie wrote:
The family’s own expert said that he believes the original doctor doing the autopsy made a “mistake that can be made without bias”. [/quote]
The article on CNN actually said :
Doogie I really don’t see what you’re trying to defend since :
Martin Anderson died while in bootcamp.
So it seems natural that somebody there be held responsible : be it neglect or something else.
[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
doogie wrote:
The family’s own expert said that he believes the original doctor doing the autopsy made a “mistake that can be made without bias”.
The article on CNN actually said :
“Baden said that while he believes Siebert made a “mistake that can be made without bias,” outside pressures and racial bias would be looked into as possible factors.”
[/quote]
Baden can’t “look into” outside pressures or racial bias. That is the states job. All he said was that "a “mistake that can be made without bias”.
[quote]
Doogie I really don’t see what you’re trying to defend since :
“The preliminary findings indicate the boy did not die from sickle cell trait, nor did he die from natural causes”
Martin Anderson died while in bootcamp.
So it seems natural that somebody there be held responsible : be it neglect or something else.[/quote]
I didn’t defend anything. I said there has been no determination that excessive force was used. Are you aware of some investigation that the rest of us aren’t?
[quote]doogie wrote:
Baden can’t “look into” outside pressures or racial bias. That is the states job. All he said was that "a “mistake that can be made without bias”.[/quote]
No, actually the entire statement or “sentiment” was credited to him with one part of that statement as a direct quote.
[quote]doogie wrote:
I didn’t defend anything. I said there has been no determination that excessive force was used. Are you aware of some investigation that the rest of us aren’t?
[/quote]
If you were aware of something, would you be stupid enough to talk about it on the Internet ?
Having said that, even if excessive force is ruled out, somebody, somewhere is still responsible for this boy’s UNNATURAL death.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
I wish you investigated ALL deaths, since you have the abiliy to tell exactly what happened from CNN reports. Good sleuthing old chap!
DB
Discovering cause of death is a science. If you allow personal judgement to cloud the findings, you can come up with the wrong conclusion. If you want to believe a victim died from head trauma, you might casually skip over the foam in their lungs showing drowning as the cause of death. From sickle cell to unnatural causes? It should bring forth more questions of how the original cause of death was determined falsely. Why do you think it shouldn’t?[/quote]
I should have trimmed the thread of replies down. My smartass comment was aimed at PGA who, by reading a CNN report, seems to know exactly what happened to the point that he is able to identify exactly who is responsible and should be crucified.
I wasn’t questioning that the original autopsy was wrong, clearly it was. I’m merely trying to point out that people can make “honest” mistakes in an autopsy, regardless of whether or not it is science. The fact that the person performing the autopsy missed something doesn’t mean that there was a sinister reason behind it, contrary to PGA’s apparent knowledge.
Unless we know everything that went on, firsthand, we fill in the blanks based on personal prejudices. Does anyone here know enough about this case to definitively convict someone? I don’t see how that’s possible at this point.
DB
The day keep getting better…
Boot camp teen’s parents: ‘It’s a good day’
November 28, 2006
TAMPA, Florida (CNN) – Eight former employees of the Bay County Sheriff’s Office were charged Tuesday with aggravated manslaughter in the death of a 14-year-old at a Florida boot camp for juvenile offenders.
State Attorney Mark Ober of Hillsborough County said seven former guards and a nurse are accused of causing the death of Martin Lee Anderson by “culpable negligence.”
If convicted, each could face up to 30 years in prison.
“This feels like a brick lifted off my shoulders,” the teenager’s father, Robert Lee Anderson, said at a Panama City press conference Tuesday afternoon. “Tonight I might get me some rest.”
Tears welling in her eyes, Anderson’s mother, Gina Jones, told reporters Thanksgiving had been especially difficult without her son.
Asked how she would feel on Christmas, Jones said, “just like I felt Thanksgiving. No Martin, no Christmas. My daughter and I went out and dressed up his grave for Christmas. That’s Christmas for Martin.”
“Today is a good day for me. I’m finally getting justice for my baby,” Jones said.
The teen collapsed January 5 at the sheriff’s office boot camp in Panama City, which was operated under a contract with the Florida Department of Juvenile Justice.
Anderson was arrested in June 2005 for stealing his grandmother’s Jeep Cherokee in Panama City. He was ordered to the boot camp for violating his probation after he trespassed at a school, according to the Miami Herald.
As part of the entry process on his first day at the facility, Anderson complained of breathing difficulties while running around a track. He was taken to a hospital and died early the next day.
Gov. Jeb Bush, who ordered Ober to investigate Anderson’s death in March, said he was told the arrests were being made and hoped “that at the end of the day justice will be served.” (Watch Bush express his hopes about the case)
“We also hope that once the process is completed that Martin Lee Anderson’s family will have the answers to the questions that they legitimately have,” Bush said.
Referring to Ober, whose office is in Tampa, Jones told reporters Tuesday, “He took a long time. I was impatient. But it was worth it.”
Waylon Graham, attorney for one of the defendants, Charles Helms Jr., said he wasn’t surprised at the outcome of the probe.
“It’s pretty clear that the outside prosecutors succumbed to the pressure from the governor,” Graham said. “No doubt. It was clear from the beginning what the governor wanted.”
Graham said the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child would be difficult for prosecutors to prove.
“If these men can raise the money to put on a good defense, to hire the right experts, they have an excellent chance of being found not guilty,” Graham said.
Bob Pell, an attorney who represents former guard Joseph Walsh II, told The Associated Press he hadn’t heard about charges against his client.
“I didn’t anticipate it,” he told the AP. “I was hoping cooler heads would prevail, but we will deal with this as it comes down. We understood the political pressure that was brought to bear.”
Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Anderson’s parents, said they “are encouraged and relieved today after 11 months of waiting.”
“They believe that today a strong message has been sent that justice will be done for Martin,” he told reporters at the Panama City press conference.
Crump said guards “had a duty to provide care for a child, and failing that is evidence of a crime.”
“Absent charges, they would be getting away with murder,” he said.
The boot camp in Bay County was closed in early May. The sheriff’s office said the closure had nothing to do with Anderson’s case, but also said the eight people involved in the incident were not offered new jobs.
Later that month, Bush signed the Martin Lee Anderson Act into law, with Martin’s parents present, which replaces boot camps with juvenile facilities more focused on education and counseling.
Panama City and Bay County are on the Gulf coast in the Florida Panhandle.
Video: Teen forced to the ground
Videotape of the incident showed Anderson being forced to the ground by various methods, including knees to the thigh, pressure points to his ear and punches to his arms.
Later, another camp staff member hit him from behind, causing his body to lurch forward. A nurse stood by and on at least one occasion determined his vital signs were normal.
An initial autopsy, conducted by Dr. Charles Siebert in nearby Panama City, showed Anderson died a natural death caused by complications of sickle cell trait.
A second autopsy, conducted by pathologist Dr. Vernard Adams, showed the teen was suffocated by guards who were restraining him.
To reach his findings, Adams studied the video, including having it enhanced by engineers at NASA. The intake process at the facility is videotaped as a matter of policy.
Afterward, the staff prepared a report detailing the techniques used on Anderson, including ammonia capsules under his nose, knee strikes, a straight arm-bar takedown, bending his wrist and pouring water over his head.
To explain the use of force, one staff member wrote, “I ordered [the] offender to stop resisting and relax his arms. Offender refused to comply with those instructions.”
Some experts on juvenile justice called it excessive force. The sheriff’s office said Anderson was restrained for being “uncooperative.” After the incident, he was taken away on a stretcher and died later that day.
Anderson’s family accused the employees of killing the teen and demanded an independent investigation.
Besides Helms and Walsh, the charging document filed by Ober in Bay County Circuit Court identifies those charged as Henry Dickens, Charles Enfinger, Patrick Garrett, Raymond Hauck, Henry McFadden Jr. and Kristin Smith.
They are described as “being caregivers of Martin Lee Anderson” who caused his death.
Anderson’s family had accused county and state officials of attempting to cover up what happened.
Ober said “there is no evidence by any public official or agency to undermine or improperly influence this investigation.”
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/28/boot.camp.death/index.html
And yes, these cops were fucking PIGS for killing this 14 year old boy.
PGA, do you post while you’re at work?
PGA-
The staff members at the boot camp were NOT cops. They were guards. There is a really big difference between a law enforcement officer, (cops. which these guys were not). And Correctional officers(guards. what these guys were.)
They both wear blue uniforms, and have badges. but they are massively different animals.
[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
PGA-
The staff members at the boot camp were NOT cops. They were guards. There is a really big difference between a law enforcement officer, (cops. which these guys were not). And Correctional officers(guards. what these guys were.)
They both wear blue uniforms, and have badges. but they are massively different animals.[/quote]
Usually not worth explaining such things to someone with such a complete bias that it borders on being a mental disturbance.