Thanks for making it so easy for me. But i looked over it and couldnt find the passage you referred to. Regardless, I have friends who live in projects in my hometown, have lived their since ive known them (age 12 or so) and still live there now. They got free or reduced lunch at school(and many times had the money to buy a second lunch…hmmm?). They did this their whole time in school. Does that sound like limits on a system?
Fitone - You are absolutely wrong about Socialist states. Do you know of any socialist states in the world right now? Hate to break it to you but Norway and Sweden, among others, are operating on mostly socialist policies right now. And guess what? Their childhood poverty rates are <5%, compared to 22% for us. Their literacy rates are near 100%, their crime rates are the lowest of industrialized nations, and the have the lowest rates of drug abuse in all of Europe. I’ll drop a couple other bombs on you…they have some of the highest amount of premarital sex, and yet lowest rates of unwanted pregnancy, happy people over there! Contrary to your claims, they have essentially eliminated the extremely upper and lower-classes; they have a huge middle class. Look, it’s not right for us, we are too big and too diverse a population, but to say that socialist policy cannot work is IDIOTIC. It’s fun to make up shit, I know how boring facts can be, but let’s stick to them on this issue, aiight?
Goldberg,
I see where you’re coming from. I just wanted to point out that both sides included this tax refund at some point. From where I’m sitting (as a very moderate democrat) I really don’t see any difference in either party’s capacity for bending the truth. I think both sides are absurd. Also, these people that you say pay “no taxes” do actually still pay payroll taxes, correct? So why shouldn’t they get a break on their taxes like we do? Just a question.
Thanks again W! (I’m starting to like this guy)
They do get a tax break. they get all the payroll taxes they paid all year back at the end of the year, just like i did this year. Im for a flat tax. I dont see why the richest people have to pay the most. It makes no sense. They dont use any more of the governmental issued amemnities than the poor people.
1 question, and if anyone knows the stats please put them up:
What is the amount given out to hopeless welfare cases VS the total amount of taxes NOT paid by corporations using loopholes, offshore registration and other strategies?
I would bet that the total not paid into by corporations - if brought in would significantly ease alot of pressure across the board.
Why aren’t more people harping on this? Oh yeah, I forgot we should be thinking about Laci Peterson and the other drivel thrown at us.
and the fact that shares of this corporate money NOT going to schools and fire stations is handed to our trustworthy leaders in DC to ensure that the handouts & favorable tax laws just keep on comin’.
“blame the problems on the po’ folk agin, they’ll beleedat”
Rumbach and dude from Canada…are you two guys smokin doobies?? Your arguments are totally lame and based in falsehood. I think you might be stoned instead of dumb…but the jury is still out I guess…
Montrosefan
“What is the amount given out to hopeless welfare cases VS the total amount of taxes NOT paid by corporations using loopholes, offshore registration and other strategies?”
A better question is, “How many jobs did the hopeless poor people create VS the total amount of jobs the corporations made?”
Laci Peterson got killed because she was going to spill the beans about corporate welfare and loopholes…she knew too much.
Well, maybe not. You know the government doesn’t choose what goes in the media here. That’s done by people trying to sell ad space.
Goldberg, I thought that they did not get refunds back for things like SS and MC. I really don’t know much about this issue though so I can’t really comment on it too much.
Doogie, that’s a great point. We really shouldn’t vilify large corporations, but even though they create lots of jobs can we not still admit that their use of loopholes to avoid taxation is a problem?
Goldie as I said before I couldn’t have said it better. I would be proud if my son said the same. Let these lazy feel good assholes understand what it’s like and they’ll still whine and complain.
Realest: there are no true socialist party or communisim anymore… China claims to be communism but it look more and like a socialist/capitalism party more leaning towards capitalism.
Gotta agree with Karma…Goldberg…etc…
I grew up very poor …on goverment welfare cause I was a dependent. But, I educated myself in the military and with the help of Jesus Christ…pulled myself from the mire of the “IM a victim” mindset…which the left really loves!
Oh…and in the meantime…I learned a little about bodybuilding!
My coach PtrDr from the Air Force days also helped immensely!
Montrosefan…
The Good Guys list has just been expanded. Here’s a hearty welcome for GOLDBERG AND MONTROSEFAN!!!
Conversely, here’s a shit hitting the fan Airplane moment for the new bad guys: tharealest and kuri. You guys should be ashamed. Do you know how long a plant has to work to produce the oxygen needed to fuel your tiny minds? You’ve wasted the precious oxygen.
I have to admit, I am fascinated by Karma. She makes me feel all warm, fuzzy, and somewhat uncomfortable. Thanks for joining the political conversation.
Coming in under most everyone else (excluding restless and adal) is the paragon of stupidity, the french tennie-weenie, socialist lovin’, mon quebec. Man if this guy was more idiotic he’d have to be stuffed with his idol lenin, and placed on permanent tour along with P.T. Barnum. Can you see it? In lights, imagine, “The Eighth Wonder of the World, the one and only, mon quebec.” My God, how does this guy look in the mirror?
OK MORONS LET’S GET TO IT!!! DID YOU FREAKSHOWS KNOW THAT COMMUNISM IS RESPONSIBLE FOR AS MANY AS ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY MILLION DEATHS IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY!!! PLEASE READ THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE EIGHTY TWO TIMES OVER UNTIL IT SINKS IN. I SAID ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY MILLION DEATHS!!! THEY KILLED THEIR OWN PEOPLE FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON. HERE IT IS AGAIN, ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY MILLION DEATHS. IF YOU SUPPORT SOCIALISM YOU ARE THE WORST BAD GUYS IMAGINABLE.
In case anyone is under any delusions about the greatness of the United States of America, I want you nitwits to realize how many people DIE trying to get into the United States every year. No one dies trying to get into norway or sweden. They only end up dying of taxation or absolute boredom. Do you FOOLS REALIZE HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET AN OUTPATIENT PROCEDURE IN CANADA, SWEDEN, OR NORWAY? PEOPLE ARE DYING!!!
Well, if they are able to use loopholes I am just plain jealous! I am simply covered up in taxes. I am president of a small corporation which I founded over 10 years ago, and even early on when I could only afford to give myself a 20K salary, I STILL paid through the nose in taxes… over 40% of my income! I would LOVE to find out what these fucken loopholes are so I can get a little relief. That dumbass tax cut they are proposing now won’t do jack shit for me. Plus, it is all the little local fees (legalized racketeering) that gets you. I had to pay nearly 17K in taxes 1st quarter, and I didn’t even pay myself that much for the first quarter. How is that fair? Frankly, I feel that because I am NOT a big company, that I am penalized for trying to be in business. There aren’t too many incentives to going into business for yourself, unless you are like me and just work for anyone but yourself. It can cause me to have a great deal of resentment when I see companies like Enron not paying any taxes, comitting crimes like stealing Billions from their shareholders and the American taxpayers, and other companies that get “corporate welfare” and tax incentives… It is guys like ME who are supporting this friggin’ country with MY taxes that I can barely afford to pay, but somehow manage every year to eek it out. I have always worked my ass off… I have a very solid work ethic, putting in over 50 and sometimes 60 hours a week! When I see these elite, silver spoon brats like GW giving all of his wealthy buddies a break so they can buy another summer home I want to fucking PUKE! Make them pay their percentage like everyone else!
Sorry… off my rant. About that anyway.
All this being said, I am not lacking in compassion… Kuri makes a good point about the companies that don’t pay taxes could really provide some relief. I am going to do some homework to support this, but I believe that the actual burden of welfare is not nearly as much as any of you think. Our taxes aren’t just a funnel to a bunch of lazy low-lifes. There are roads to build, wars to be fought… all that ain’t cheap, let me tell you. A lot more expensive than a few poor folks. There are a lot of victems out there, but there are a lot of people who work hard and just want to raise their children in hopes that they have a better life than them. That is what is great about America… we at least have the opportunity if we are ambitious and driven enough to create wealth for ourselves. Welfare helps a lot of those people. In fact, Montrosefan just claimed that his family relied on it for a while, and look at what an upstanding citizen he turned out to be. Should his family have been penalized for being poor? Ideally, it is just a little boost to get people through those times. There are parasites galore out there, but they represent a much smaller percentage than you all realize. TheRealist also makes a really good point. The best government to live in is a free enterprise with compassion. If there is no incentive to excel, people will become stagnant. But what do you suggest we do with our poor? If we just cut them loose completely we will have cities like New Dheli or Bombay, where the gap between the haves and have nots is so extreme that it is shameful. I have pride in the fact that we don’t have people starving to death here. Course, ironically, it is the poor of our population right now that are the most obese. Go figure! Back to that whole natural selection thing though.
I grew up poor as well. No one even paid for my college. No grants, no loans, no handouts for me. I didn’t wear name brand clothes to school, I didn’t drive fancy cars. I didn’t resent the wealthy kids for having something I didn’t though (well, maybe I did a little then, but I don’t now), because I always believed that I had something that NONE of them did… I knew that I was going to make it on my own, and than when I did, no one but me could claim the credit for it. I always knew that I would survive, and since I started with nothing to lose, I didn’t mind taking risks and starting something that could become big. Most of those other kids grew up and now have some middle management job that they got out of college, they are on their 2nd spouse, and they are almost ALL out fat. Me on the other hand, I have been with the same woman I met in college over 14 years ago with three kids and a thriving business that I created over 10 years ago from the ground up, and to top it all off, I am in great shape. I don’t envy any of those people. They were raised to settle for mediocre, because they always had whatever they wanted, so they didn’t manifest any ambition. If anything, I feel sorry for them. Most of them will never even come close to tapping their own potential.
One point that someone made earlier about education was important (can’t remember which one at the moment, and too lazy to go back and see). Basically they said that education needed to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. A few people simply retorted that it was just liberal idealism wanting to throw money at a problem to fix it. I agree that throwing money at the problem can’t fix it, but I think that they misunderstood what he was saying. I think he was suggesting that we have a complete paradigm shift where education is concerned. If there is any hope for the future of this country, I believe that is it. I am greatful for the public education that I received. School has certainly gone downhill since then though. It is simply shameful what they pay teachers. People don’t enter that position because of all the money that they can make. They usually enter the field of education because they are passionate about teaching. There are a lot of burnouts now, but if we created new standards for teachers, raised the pay to at least a middle income standard of living, and made sure that PE programs didn’t get cut all over the country (personal to me… I am on a mission here), then we would feel the difference after a few generations. These next rounds leaving school are not going to be employable. Pretty sad crop.
Sorry guys… I am all over the map tonight. That is what happens when I miss my window for going to sleep. I am off for now. Goodnight.
US=GG…calm down! You say that Communism is responsible for many many deaths. Ok…correct…I don’t support Communism, and I didn’t mention Communism in my post. I was talking about Socialism, remember? Wait, you did know they are two different things, right?
Yes, a slow healthcare system is one of the disadvantages of Canada’s socialist policies, Sweden does not have as much of a problem in this area because of its smaller population. See how I pointed out that this wouldn’t work here in the US because of that? Read the post next time smart guy…
And anyway, slow healthcare is a con, but free healthcare is a pro. High taxes are a con, low poverty rates are a pro. low crime rates are nice. being boring is not. See I prefer our way to theirs, but that does not mean theirs is wrong. In reality, their way of life has a lot of nice things about it, so even if your prefer ours, you are simply wrong to say theirs doesn’t work. Facts are facts man.
Quite frankly you look like an idiot saying that Sweden is “evil” despite their high literacy rates, low crime rates, and low poverty rates because they are “boring” and healthcare takes a long time. It’s unfortunate, because I know you’re an intelligent guy underneath it all.
Contextual question…Do you know how many people die trying to get from Sweden into the U.S. each year?
About my mind being “tiny,” we can compare IQs anytime my friend, any time.
Fitone, I wasn’t talking about China in my post, I was talking about the many successful states that run under socialist policies that you claim don’t exist. They do exist. And as you can see from the facts some of them are doing quite well for themselves. Sure they are not “purely” socialist, but that is those are the dominant policies in their everyday governance. Do you think that we in the US practice a true democracy or practice pure captialism?
Look, I’m not saying it’s the right way or the wrong way (because in this case neither is really “right” or “wrong”), I’m just pointing out that Socialist policy can be, and is, very successfully practiced today, when you claimed that it “cannot work.” The facts just do not support your claim on this one. Sorry.
You also claim that “Soicalism country only have two class of people the rich and the poor no middle at all.” Again, you are wrong here. The example of Sweden proves you wrong. Just admit it please, it’s really not a big deal.
Amen us=gg.
although if you count the “national socialist” party you could add another tens of millions (history joke, thats the natzis…)
S-man
US=GG: Right On!
yeah, right on US=GG, oh, except for that part when you replace “socialism” with “communism,” - last I heard it wasn’t quite the same thing.
see Tharealist’s posts and re-read.
and Mr. good guy, wassup with the constant need to insult? Are you threatened by other views? You should go check the Illinois Nazis - hear their lookin’ fo a few good men.
Roy Batty-good points. It is the middle class and small business owners who pay through the nose - and then are told “its the po’ folks fault, not us rich guys.”
Lets think about how many jobs were created by many corporations since the GAT & NAFTA agreements… Seems to me a lot of folks lost their asses due to the intl flight of jobs. Many of the same companies that escape paying taxes.
But maybe if we cut welfare and all these “pansy-ass liberal” social programs we’ll see a permanant class of extreme poverty that will allow these corporations to find their indentured labor right here! What a solution!
Sure nobody wants to pay for welfare and the poor, but isn’t that better than letting them fall into (even more) hopeless states of poverty that eventually harm everyone?
I live in a country right now with NO programs, no help for the homeless, other than some religious oraganizations who hand out food- and economic troubles of the last 10 yrs have created literally CITIES of homeless. Can’t walk through a park without witnessing some very sad sights. Families torn apart.
Here people think that “its their own fault, we’re not paying for them” - and they don’t - which is why the homeless cities continue to grow.
And this is in the world’s 2nd largest economy. We could take some lessons from Japan on what not to do.