Studies Show Unvaccinated Children Healthier

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Some of the posters in here have the patience of a saint…[/quote]

Lol. I am clearly not among those saints. Although I hope I may be some day[/quote]

I can understand the frustration. I’m don’t even understand the science behind it and I can’t figure out how this is even a discussion.

It’s really pretty straight forward:

  1. Millions of people lived horrible lives and died because of diseases x, y, or z.
  2. Vaccines are invented.
  3. Diseases x, y, and z are all but eradicated
  4. Millions of people avoid terrible suffering and death because of them.

But trace amounts of mercury end up in the blood stream. I will fucking drink a non-toxic dose of mercury to avoid polio. Hell I might drink a toxic dose to avoid polio…

122

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Some of the posters in here have the patience of a saint…[/quote]

Lol. I am clearly not among those saints. Although I hope I may be some day[/quote]

I can understand the frustration. I’m don’t even understand the science behind it and I can’t figure out how this is even a discussion.

It’s really pretty straight forward:

  1. Millions of people lived horrible lives and died because of diseases x, y, or z.
  2. Vaccines are invented.
  3. Diseases x, y, and z are all but eradicated
  4. Millions of people avoid terrible suffering and death because of them.

But trace amounts of mercury end up in the blood stream. I will fucking drink a non-toxic dose of mercury to avoid polio. Hell I might drink a toxic dose to avoid polio…[/quote]

The flip side of it too: Parents that choose to “risk” the vaccine to try and save from the alternative make a sacrifice so the selfish parents and people who refuse to risk it can benefit from others.

It’s like welfare. Leeching off the system. No wonder it’s a big movement in California.

123

I mean, put it this way. You don’t think I was scared shitless every time a needle goes in the arm of my kids, for any reason at all?

You bet your fucking ass I was.

124

It wasn’t a side step at all.

Your “issue” is that vaccines contain some toxic ingredients.

I counter that the benefit of vaccination far outweighs the negative consequences of exposure to those toxic ingredients.

Now you’ve thrown another wrench into the discussion, so I can’t tell if you’re anti-vaccine or just anti-certain-thingies-in-vaccines.

The thing is, those “thingies” are all in the vaccines for a reason. I would love it if we could make organic grass fed beef into a vaccine, but sadly we cannot. Thus, vaccines are probably going to have to contain trace amounts of toxic thingies. Do with that information what you will.

125

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
It wasn’t a side step at all.

Your “issue” is that vaccines contain some toxic ingredients.

I counter that the benefit of vaccination far outweighs the negative consequences of exposure to those toxic ingredients.

Now you’ve thrown another wrench into the discussion, so I can’t tell if you’re anti-vaccine or just anti-certain-thingies-in-vaccines.

The thing is, those “thingies” are all in the vaccines for a reason. I would love it if we could make organic grass fed beef into a vaccine, but sadly we cannot. Thus, vaccines are probably going to have to contain trace amounts of toxic thingies. Do with that information what you will.[/quote]

We should obviously throw out yellow fever vaccines because some people are allergic to eggs…

126

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Some of the posters in here have the patience of a saint…[/quote]

Lol. I am clearly not among those saints. Although I hope I may be some day[/quote]

I can understand the frustration. I’m don’t even understand the science behind it and I can’t figure out how this is even a discussion.

It’s really pretty straight forward:

  1. Millions of people lived horrible lives and died because of diseases x, y, or z.
  2. Vaccines are invented.
  3. Diseases x, y, and z are all but eradicated
  4. Millions of people avoid terrible suffering and death because of them.

But trace amounts of mercury end up in the blood stream. I will fucking drink a non-toxic dose of mercury to avoid polio. Hell I might drink a toxic dose to avoid polio…[/quote]

The flip side of it too: Parents that choose to “risk” the vaccine to try and save from the alternative make a sacrifice so the selfish parents and people who refuse to risk it can benefit from others.

It’s like welfare. Leeching off the system. No wonder it’s a big movement in California. [/quote]

Amen to both of you!

127

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

This is my issue with vaccines.

Common substances found in vaccines include:
Aluminum gels or salts of aluminum which are added as adjuvants to help the vaccine stimulate a better response. Adjuvants help promote an earlier, more potent response, and more persistent immune response to the vaccine.

Antibiotics which are added to some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs (bacteria) during production and storage of the vaccine. No vaccine produced in the United States contains penicillin.

Egg protein is found in influenza and yellow fever vaccines, which are prepared using chicken eggs. Ordinarily, persons who are able to eat eggs or egg products safely can receive these vaccines.

Formaldehyde is used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines, (these are vaccines that use an inactive bacterial toxin to produce immunity.) It is also used to kill unwanted viruses and bacteria that might contaminate the vaccine during production. Most formaldehyde is removed from the vaccine before it is packaged.

Monosodium glutamate (MSG) and 2-phenoxy-ethanol which are used as stabilizers in a few vaccines to help the vaccine remain unchanged when the vaccine is exposed to heat, light, acidity, or humidity.

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative that is added to vials of vaccine that contain more than one dose to prevent contamination and growth of potentially harmful bacteria.[/quote]

Aluminum–sodium aluminum silicate. Neither gels nor elemental Aluminum (which is what is contained in water, food, and nature) are injected or present in vaccines. What’s the big deal? You realize this is in multivitamins right? You realize this is in A BUNCH of pharmaceuticals to treat stomach upset and minimize stomach upset right? You realize we ingest 3-5 mg of Aluminum a day (which is an incredibly low estimate) from food and water, which is many many many times the amount in vaccines right? Do you despise multivitamins? Food? Water? You realize a typical antacid tablet can contain anywhere from .8 - 5 GRAMS of aluminum salts? 5000 mg?

The aluminum salts contained in a vaccine is approximately what you would get from drinking a liter of water. I hope you hate water, because you’re getting ALUMINUM! Aluminum is the most abundant metal in the upper crust of the earth. It. Is. Everywhere.

Incidentally, infants on soy formula in the first 6 months of life are ingesting approximately 30 times the aluminum found in the total doses of all aluminum containing vaccines (and not all of the vaccines contain this).

I’m not going to address antibiotics in vaccines. Number 1, your post itself just said we don’t have penicillin in our vaccines in the US. Number 2, if you hate antibiotic use by humans go back to the 1700s. Seriously, antibiotics are perhaps the single most life prolonging class of chemicals ever created.

Formaldehyde–First, it’s utilized in facial tissues, paper towels, and napkins so don’t touch any of those. Or cosmetics. Second, as Americans we ingest approximately 20 mg a day in food and water. Third, the body readily metabolizes it, or otherwise you’d die from citrus fruits, or apples. OUR BODIES PRODUCE FORMALDEHYDE NATURALLY. FORMALDEHYDE IS SO EVER PRESENT THAT THE NATURAL BLOOD LEVEL IN A HUMAN IS 2-3 ug/mL. That’s 2-3 mg/L.

A 7 lb newborn babe will NATURALLY have anywhere from 500-900 ug of formaldehyde in their blood from NATURAL PROCESSES. By contrast the dose present in the hepatitis B vaccine is 7 ug. Even if you had the baby take ALL the vaccines on the list at the same time, which would NEVER happen, the total dose of formaldehyde is still only 1800 ug. Or less than the amount in 1 liter of blood. This is well within the baby’s body’s ability to metabolize.

Monosodium glutamate–I shouldn’t even bother. glutamate–an amino acid. Used in cellular metabolism and as a neurotransmitter, and gut health. Naturally occurring. Monosodium–“1 sodium”. Monosodium glutamate–glutamate with 1 sodium molecule associated with it. Whoop-de-fucking-do. You know what else is scary? Sodium chloride. Oh wait, that’s table salt. Fuck. A daily dose of 6,000 mg per kg is safe, recognized as safe, and not going to hurt anybody.

Dose in vaccine: 0.188 mg - .6 mg. Putting that in perspective, 1 cup of breast milk contains an average of 350–900 TIMES MORE THAN THE DOSE OF A FUCKING VACCINE. IN BREAST MILK.

I don’t even have the borderline patience for the last one. I’m fucking pissed I had to write all this out.

128

GET YOUR KIDS VACCINATED YOU ILLITERATE SELFISH FREAKS. FUCK!

Ok, I’m borderline better now. Maybe. Fuck!

129

I wonder if the anti-vaccination people are also anti-medicine.

At least that would be logically consistent.

130

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
GET YOUR KIDS VACCINATED YOU ILLITERATE SELFISH FREAKS. FUCK!

Ok, I’m borderline better now. Maybe. Fuck![/quote]

Hey Aragorn, what got you so fired up on this?

I understand Activities Guy being so enthusiastic. This is his first rodeo. You’ve been on this site for years and the topic comes up at least every 18 months. What gives this time?

131

To be sure, this is my “first rodeo” in the sense that it’s my first discussion of this topic on this website, but truthfully every time this topic comes up ANYWHERE, I feel some degree of responsibility to challenge it, because…

I understand that some people aren’t going to budge; honestly, I don’t expect to change the minds of the most militant anti-vaxers. The ones I’m really trying to reach about are people who haven’t quite made up their minds or have just started reading about the supposed “dangers” of vaccines and lack the technical knowledge and/or critical thinking skills to parse apart why most of this is bullshit.

To the untrained eye, that information on the first page of this thread is scary-sounding stuff. And most people aren’t familiar enough with study design to catch the nuances that make it such utter horseshit. I would prefer that they at least have the relevant counterpoints presented so they can read both sides and make their decision on the matter instead of just hearing a few standard anti-vax talking points and making up their minds.

So while I can’t speak for Aragorn, I’ll say that my zealous commitment in this thread (and pretty much any time this topic comes up in any context) is motivated by an unofficial professional responsibility, odd as that may sound. I’ll probably never have a chance to DIRECTLY save a life just by being in the right place at the right time, as some doctors and/or nurses will even in their off-duty hours. But if I can help people understand the nuances of this argument better and let them make a better-informed choice, I think that’s important.

USMC has had some real levity-bringing posts here of the “Guys, come on, this should be obvious” variety, which I very much appreciate (and I hope those have spoken to people as well). But for those who are reading this kind of stuff for the first time and thinking “gosh, those vaccines sure are dangerous, and who’s ever heard of someone getting measles in this day and age?” - I want them to see legitimate scientific opinion represented, not just kooks from vaccine-injury.info as the definitive scientific opinion.

132

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
GET YOUR KIDS VACCINATED YOU ILLITERATE SELFISH FREAKS. FUCK!

Ok, I’m borderline better now. Maybe. Fuck![/quote]

Hey Aragorn, what got you so fired up on this?

I understand Activities Guy being so enthusiastic. This is his first rodeo. You’ve been on this site for years and the topic comes up at least every 18 months. What gives this time?
[/quote]
Honestly, this is the first time I’ve seen actual serious threads about anti-vaccination…maybe I’m not paying much attention. Ironically it has been a great day today, but if there is one thing I cannot stand its people misquoting science to a damn scientist and pretending they have the expertise to talk at the same level (lifticus is the one that originally set me on that path). Has nothing to do with me considering them inferior or anything, but…you know what, I honestly can’t put it into words. At least not right now being late and bar closing.

This is s probably about hte 8th vaccination “conversation” I’ve had in the past two weeks. At some point it wears on me and my patience just goes to zero. Frankly, I take it personally that people think just because they have the right to hold an opinion that mezns their opinions should be viewed as valid and scientifically sound by everybody, and that they seem to have this aaaaall figured out and me–and people like me–who have spent a decade or more studying SPECIFICALLY to know how to manipulate, prepare, perform, understand, research, and discover new drugs, treatments, genetic therapy options, and ways to contain and eradicate diseases that fucking kill people…that we’re all just shills for some conspiracy fucking theory of Big Pharma/Govt/whatever, dishonest or somehow NOT competent scientists and that THEY really have the secret solution and moral high ground.

Essentially it’s a lot of things and I reached the end of my proverbial rope today. Google “the death of expertise”. Yeah yeah, I know you’re a scientist but youve got this all wrong and you’ve been injecting people with things that will kill them and I have you people figured out, you shills for “big pharma” you. You don’t think someone with no formal training, hell no training AT ALL, shitting on your life’s pursuit wouldn’t push some serious buttons? To be fair, I’ve been getting this lately from a lot of sources not just this thread.

Outside of personally being offended they think their opinions should have equal scientific validity to people who have literally studied their whole lives for this one area, despite the fact that they can’t even explain basic concepts correctly. I think it’s absolutely egregious for people to be so fucking selfish as to put other people at risk of serious sickness hospitalization or death ala measles and other things like that…because some fucking celebrity said so.

Outside of that, no reason in particular to be upset. Like I said, its been a great day for me. Willful endangerment of vulnerable and helpless people doesn’t sit well with me. Especially when combined with a severe dismissal of people who actually live the science they are poo pooing in favor of voodoo.

Forgive the typos I am on my phone.

EDIT–Once again, ActivitiesGuy says it much better and much, much more patiently than I could ever hope for. For whatever reason, this topic hits a very personal nerve and it gets rubbed raw after repeated talks with “the faithful” over the past couple weeks. I am usually not nearly as AngryChicken as this

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@Aragorn - I know exactly how you feel. It’s frustrating isn’t it? I’ve learned to just try to ignore it and not respond. That’s what I’ve come to do with 9/11 truthers for example. You can’t get through to people like that. It wouldn’t matter if a video came out showing the whole thing being planned and executed. The video would be “fake”. Everyone who doesn’t believe their tale are “sheeple”. The first reaction is to laugh it off but the thing is these people vote. I’ve always thought there should be some kind of IQ test for voting. Maybe a civic knowledge test as they have for citizenship applicants.

Anyway, in relation to the OP here’s a site that counts the number of deaths attributable to anti-vaccine nuts in the US:

http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html

134

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I think it’s absolutely egregious for people to be so fucking selfish as to put other people at risk of serious sickness hospitalization or death [/quote]

-I apologize if this has already been covered, but the only ones at an increased risk of serious sickness or death are the unvaccinated, correct? I may be way off, but my understanding is that the unvaccinated can possibly be infected by exposure to the vaccinated, but the vaccinated are safe around the unvaccinated.

135

I think you guys have an inaccurate understanding about the majority of “anti-vaxers”. Not your fault, it’s the fault of the anti-vac extremists who spread garbage like that which AG took apart on page one. Such garbage is not all that unlike the pro vaccine garbage SM just linked above, btw. As stated in this thread, the majority of anti-vaxers (I hate that term, I’m going with concerned parents from here on out, works better for spell correct anyway, yes I know vaxers are also concerned parents) are educated people, their not morons or any of the other pejoratives that have been liberally applied in this thread.

The majority of concerned parents understand the science behind vaccines and appreciate the positive impact they have provided humanity. The red flags go up when they look at the number of recommended vaccines (at least this is what gets me). Twenty four by the time a child is 15 months old! http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf Activities Guy, you stated previously something like “they don’t get them all at once”. Well damn, that’s a lot in a very short period of time.

To many people this reeks of big pharma lobby efforts > what society really needs for best risk reward. Again AG, I think you stated that people do have good reason to mistrust the medical community, just not regarding this. Well how are we to know where we can trust them and where we can’t. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

So while the total number of recommended vaccines is very high that shouldn’t matter if they are safe, right? I’ve already acknowledged the benefit of vaccines to mankind. Again, the majority of concerned parents know the active components of vaccines (mostly) do a great service to mankind but it’s the other ingredients we don’t want going in our children.

I looked up the average blood serum level of mercury for humans. It’s roughly .6 mcg/L. A grown up has about 5 liters of blood. The yearly flu vaccine Fluzone Quad contains 12.5 mcg/childrens dose. I doubt a 18 month old child has a one liter of blood but lets go with one liter anyway. In one injection a child goes from .6 mcg in it’s body to 13.1. That’s over 20 times as much instantly.

The first recommended vaccine on the CDC table is for HepB. It’s recommended at birth, one month and 12 months. It doesn’t contain mercury but it does contain aluminum. The average serum blood level of aluminum is 1-3 mcg/liter. One child dose of RecombivaxHB contains 250 mcg of aluminum! Remember, it’s recommended at birth and one month. At those ages a child probably doesn’t even have a half liter of blood.

Here’s what the CDC says about aluminum: “The most sensitive target of aluminum toxicity is the nervous system.
Impaired performance on neurobehavioral tests of motor function, sensory function, and cognitive function have been observed in animals. Neurobehavioral alterations have been observed following exposure of adult or weanling animals and in animals exposed during gestation and/or lactation.” I didn’t find what is considered a toxic level and unfortunately I’m going to have to wrap this up pretty quick. I think a 500 fold increase over normal has a pretty good chance of being unhealthy.

These are the only two vaccines I investigated btw. There’s lots more on that CDC table I linked.

Concerned parents are less concerned about fever and chills and such after an injection or any other immediately observable side effects. We are worried about possible effects that will be much harder to link to vaccines, like lowered IQ points due to aluminum and mercury. Who knows if there could be such unknown consequences of vaccines? It would be a lot easier to risk if the table of recommended vaccines didn’t look like a money making machine for big pharma.

The other thing about us concerned parents is we’re not militant about it. My oldest has pretty bad eczema. Chicken Pox hits kids with eczema harder than most and I didn’t want him to have to deal with yet more skin trouble so we got him the vaccine. (a vaccine I could make a pretty good argument against if I wanted to) My son also once stepped on a nail from our 40 year old fence out back. I was ready to take him to get a tetanus shot but didn’t only because when I washed it up I found that I was able to thoroughly irrigate it with hydrogen peroxide and knew he would be ok. I wouldn’t have been a big deal to take him for the shot if I thought it was warranted.

Anyway, gotta go now.

136

[quote]on edge wrote:

Anyway, I don’t want to “risk” my kids health because I can just leech off all the other parents that do. If fact the very reason I can have this attitude is all the people before me that did understand the risks, read the same things, had the same concerns, yet still decided it was worth the miniscule risks.
[/quote]

Fixed that for ya.

137

For the record: I don’t give a shit if you vax your kids or not. But let’s not play cute semantic games and pretend it is something that it isn’t. You have a luxury provided to you by others, and you leech the system.

It’s fine, but be honest here.

It isn’t like Small Pox is a low threat these days because “concerned parents”. No, it’s because a bunch of people didn’t want to die from it. And it is those people’s sacrifice and “risks” that give you the luxury to leech off the rest of our kids.

138

[quote]NickViar wrote:
-I apologize if this has already been covered, but the only ones at an increased risk of serious sickness or death are the unvaccinated, correct? I may be way off, but my understanding is that the unvaccinated can possibly be infected by exposure to the vaccinated, but the vaccinated are safe around the unvaccinated.[/quote]

Also those who are immuno-compromised or have a weak immune system, like the elderly or younger children.

The point of vaccination is to make your immune system respond so rapidly that the virus never has a chance to gain a foothold to begin with, and thus why it doesn’t necessarily work for things like ebola. But if your immune system sucks, then the vaccination you got a long time ago probably won’t be of much use.

139

[quote]on edge wrote:
Concerned parents are less concerned about fever and chills and such after an injection or any other immediately observable side effects. We are worried about possible effects that will be much harder to link to vaccines, like lowered IQ points due to aluminum and mercury. Who knows if there could be such unknown consequences of vaccines? It would be a lot easier to risk if the table of recommended vaccines didn’t look like a money making machine for big pharma.
[/quote]

Vaccinations have been given to the vast majority of the population for the better part of 50 years now. If there are issues linked to IQ drops and the like, we would have seen it by now, and there would have been an abundance of information given the vast number of subjects to study. Plus it’s readily obvious- pre mass vaccination and post mass vaccination. The study seems easy and obvious to conduct.

Have we? I’m not a doctor, so I have no idea.

Let me know if you have any research on this.

That’s another part of my issue with anti-vaccination folks. They keep saying “this seems wrong”. If it seems wrong, then you need evidence to back up your beliefs, right? Where’s the evidence?

Or is big pharma just covering it all up because they want to increase their profits?

140

One thing I do want to assess is the worry about whether this is some Big Pharma conspiracy. Vaccines are, like, the least profitable thing that Pharma companies make. The amount of R+D funds that go into a vaccine and the hurdles to get it approved for the return on investment are much lower than for chronic-disease (diabetes, blood pressure, depression) meds or things like Viagra. If a Pharma company wants to make a buck, there are much more efficient ways to do it than vaccines.