Studies Show Unvaccinated Children Healthier

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Interested to know your view on the chickenpox vaccine, its role in preventing/contributing to shingles cases, and its necessity? I ask you as you seem to be the most knowledgeable and its a relatively new vaccine for a relatively harmless disease.
[/quote]

TBH, I don’t know enough to comment there. I should ask my pal the infectious disease epidemiologist for his opinion.

(relevant disclosure: I’m a PhD epidemiologist, but my research has been in mostly chronic-disease work: cardiovascular disease, diabetes, women’s health, and I’m about to go back to the cardiology world - so I have never actually worked infectious disease stuff, although I have friends that do)

FROM WHAT I CAN TELL:

  • The virus that causes chickenpox, varicella zoster virus, remains latent in nerve cells even after we fight off the infection as kids.

  • As we age, the immune responses that keep varicella zoster virus dormant in the nerves weaken and it can rear itself again.

  • The lifetime risk of shingles is estimated to be 32 percent, and approximately 50 percent of those living until age 85 are expected to develop shingles.

  • I have never known someone with shingles, so I don’t have a good grasp on the morbidity and mortality associated with the disease. It sounds like it’s no fun.

  • I don’t really know whether vaccinating against chickenpox would prevent shingles in later life. Conceptually, it makes sense, but I can imagine that the virus might still linger in some folks that get the chickenpox vaccine, become carriers of the virus but never feel the illness, and later develop shingles as their immune system weakens and the dormant virus becomes active. I don’t know enough about virology to comment.

One more-serious final point worth raising: to most of us, chickenpox is a harmless disease. Something we all got as kids and got over in a few days. But the varicella virus can be life-threatening to someone that’s immunocompromised. Kids with leukemia, anyone with cancer or HIV, etc. They rely on the fact that most everyone around them is vaccinated. So that’s the best qualitative argument I can come up with “in favor” of the chickenpox vaccine (incidentally, this extends to flu shots as well). You can get the chickenpox at age 5 and be done with it. But if your 5-year-old kid gets the chickenpox and goes to gymnastics or the playground and plays with a 5-year-old kid that has a rare childhood cancer and is enjoying one of his rare days in the sun, that kid might die from it.[/quote]

Thanks, I was reading at least one summary of the CDC’s report that said that due to the chicken pox vaccine becoming more common that instances of shingle would likely increase because adults would receive fewer exposures to the virus and those exposures acted as a natural booster to the bodies immunity to the virus. I dunno, I don’t consider myself an anti-vaccine freak at all but my wife and I have been given some pause on the chicken pox vaccine. However, if they don’t contract it young, apparently it is much harder to deal with as you get older so maybe the vaccine would make sense. But in several cases the vaccines effectiveness has been shown to wear off in 5-8 years. I dunno, lot to think about that one though.

62

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Thanks, I was reading at least one summary of the CDC’s report that said that due to the chicken pox vaccine becoming more common that instances of shingle would likely increase because adults would receive fewer exposures to the virus and those exposures acted as a natural booster to the bodies immunity to the virus. I dunno, I don’t consider myself an anti-vaccine freak at all but my wife and I have been given some pause on the chicken pox vaccine. However, if they don’t contract it young, apparently it is much harder to deal with as you get older so maybe the vaccine would make sense. But in several cases the vaccines effectiveness has been shown to wear off in 5-8 years. I dunno, lot to think about that one though. [/quote]

I asked my buddy for thoughts. If/when he gets back to me, I’ll post them here.

63

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I’ve gotten swine flu… That shit sucked. I was in bed for four days.

I’ve gotten the flu shot once. It only put me in bed for one. [/quote]

The virus they use in flu shots is dead, I don’t understand how it makes people sick?[/quote]

Killed-virus vaccines…let me 'splain.

No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

This gets to the earlier discussion of “symptoms” vs. the actual disease. The symptoms we feel - headache, fever, fatigue - are caused by the body’s immune response, not the actual disease. When you get a real virus, your body mobilizes its foot soldiers to fight off the infection, and doing that causes some rather unpleasant symptoms. It has to ramp up production of little killer cells, and send them to do their little killer thingies against the bad guys.

That immune response still happens when you get a killed-virus vaccine, which is why people usually do develop some low-grade symptoms for a day or two. They often have a similar “Ugh, the only time I got the flu was when I got the damned flu shot” reaction that’s been mentioned above. Most of the time, they didn’t actually get an influenza infection, they had a normal immune response, the same thing they’d feel if they got the common cold.

That normal immune response can be a bit uncomfortable and often makes people think they “had the flu” for a day or two. It’s a trade-off. We accept that small amount of discomfort for an assurance that (hopefully) we are protecting ourselves against the potentially life-threatening influenza virus.[/quote]

lol, this is the same lecture my wife gives me every year I refuse to get the shot, because I say that dumb shit to her to get her going.

64

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Fail. Fail. Fail, Fail, FAIL. So entirely fail.

Flu symptoms /=/ the flu. Did you even READ my fucking post above?
[/quote]

Absolutely right! Anecdotal evidence isn’t very useful WRT influenza, as 1/3 of the infected are asymptomatic. That’s the most dangerous because you’re still contagious and don’t realize it.

The scientific principles underlying immunization are very basic fundamentals of immunology. If they’re wrong, the majority of our understanding of the humoral immune response is horribly flawed. Guess those large numbers of prescription drugs that are monoclonal antibodies must be actually worthless…

And vaccines actually have much more stringent regulations than prescription drugs. The oral polio vaccine was pulled because it had a 1 in 2.3 million (IIRC, it was somewhere in that ballpark) chance of causing poliomyelitis. For a prescription drug, such a rare adverse drug reaction would be considered insignificant. 12,000 people die in the US every year from Tylenol overdoses. Iatrogenic (unintentional treatment-induced) death is actually surprisingly common. If you’re against vaccines, but okay with prescription drugs (and OTC drugs for that matter)…

65

ActivitiesGuy just murdering this thread. Amazing posts, I’ve got nothing to possibly add any more lol

66

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
And vaccines actually have much more stringent regulations than prescription drugs. The oral polio vaccine was pulled because it had a 1 in 2.3 million[/quote]

Anything you eat or stick in your body has some risk, including in the case of vaccines a bad prep/manufacturing batch or adulteration/tampering. The key is evaluating risks and benefits based on evidence and good science.

67

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
ActivitiesGuy just murdering this thread. Amazing posts, I’ve got nothing to possibly add any more lol[/quote]

Epidemiology is the causation gold standard. We are very lucky to have a pro explaining these things.

68

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
If you’re against vaccines, but okay with prescription drugs (and OTC drugs for that matter)…[/quote]

I don’t think many people really feel this way. My hunch is that most anti-vaxxers are against most of modern medicine, period. One interesting thing about me, I guess, is that I will vigorously defend vaccines while at least conceding a modicum of sympathy with the distrust of modern medicine. We do a LOT of shit wrong and I do encourage the whole “empowered patient” and “take charge of your own care” perspective that, sadly, is what’s given rise to anti-vaccine people.

For one example, conventional diet guidelines are fucking awful. The American Heart Association still has this unconscionably bad advice on its web site:

“Liquid vegetable oils such as canola, safflower, sunflower, soybean, and olive can often be used instead of solid fats such as butter, lard or shortening.”

It’s enough to make me want to strangle someone. Instead I’ll go home and cook with butter. That’ll help. Point is, there is a lot of shitty medical advice out there and it has made people distrustful of pretty much everything. So I can at least sympathize with people that want to stay away from modern medicine as much as possible. Hell, I stay away from modern medicine as much as possible - I can’t remember the last time I took a Tylenol or Advil. Just about the only things I use are Neosporin on my calluses and NyQuil if I’m a bit run down and have to knock myself out for a night’s sleep.

Vaccines, however, are one place where we absolutely fucking have it right. As we do with infectious-disease prevention and treatment in general. We’re a lot shittier at dealing with chronic diseases and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.

69

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
ActivitiesGuy just murdering this thread. Amazing posts, I’ve got nothing to possibly add any more lol[/quote]

Epidemiology is the causation gold standard. We are very lucky to have a pro explaining these things. [/quote]

Yep, I agree. My specialty is not epidemiology, it’s physical biochemistry and pharmacology. I can understand the immunology and biology, but I would have a very hard time trying to do the same thing ActivitiesGuy is doing with near as clear writing.

70

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

Still not totally convinced that we are as bad at this as we pretend to be. Prevention doesn’t make as much money though so apparently Pharma lobby is beating Insurance lobby. I am paranoid about such things though. Partially because I stayed so sick as a young man, was over prescribed antibiotics, developed pseudomembranous colitis, and have built up a resistance to most antibiotics so it makes me want to question things with my own daughter. I haven’t taken an antibiotic in ten years and am starting to get sick far less often.

71

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
If you’re against vaccines, but okay with prescription drugs (and OTC drugs for that matter)…[/quote]

I don’t think many people really feel this way. My hunch is that most anti-vaxxers are against most of modern medicine, period. One interesting thing about me, I guess, is that I will vigorously defend vaccines while at least conceding a modicum of sympathy with the distrust of modern medicine. We do a LOT of shit wrong and I do encourage the whole “empowered patient” and “take charge of your own care” perspective that, sadly, is what’s given rise to anti-vaccine people.

For one example, conventional diet guidelines are fucking awful. The American Heart Association still has this unconscionably bad advice on its web site:

“Liquid vegetable oils such as canola, safflower, sunflower, soybean, and olive can often be used instead of solid fats such as butter, lard or shortening.”

It’s enough to make me want to strangle someone. Instead I’ll go home and cook with butter. That’ll help. Point is, there is a lot of shitty medical advice out there and it has made people distrustful of pretty much everything. So I can at least sympathize with people that want to stay away from modern medicine as much as possible. Hell, I stay away from modern medicine as much as possible - I can’t remember the last time I took a Tylenol or Advil. Just about the only things I use are Neosporin on my calluses and NyQuil if I’m a bit run down and have to knock myself out for a night’s sleep.

Vaccines, however, are one place where we absolutely fucking have it right. As we do with infectious-disease prevention and treatment in general. We’re a lot shittier at dealing with chronic diseases and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

are all vaccines dead? or just the flu shot? does this mean the vaccine can leave your body?

72

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
If you’re against vaccines, but okay with prescription drugs (and OTC drugs for that matter)…[/quote]

I don’t think many people really feel this way. My hunch is that most anti-vaxxers are against most of modern medicine, period. One interesting thing about me, I guess, is that I will vigorously defend vaccines while at least conceding a modicum of sympathy with the distrust of modern medicine. We do a LOT of shit wrong and I do encourage the whole “empowered patient” and “take charge of your own care” perspective that, sadly, is what’s given rise to anti-vaccine people.

For one example, conventional diet guidelines are fucking awful. The American Heart Association still has this unconscionably bad advice on its web site:

“Liquid vegetable oils such as canola, safflower, sunflower, soybean, and olive can often be used instead of solid fats such as butter, lard or shortening.”

It’s enough to make me want to strangle someone. Instead I’ll go home and cook with butter. That’ll help. Point is, there is a lot of shitty medical advice out there and it has made people distrustful of pretty much everything. So I can at least sympathize with people that want to stay away from modern medicine as much as possible. Hell, I stay away from modern medicine as much as possible - I can’t remember the last time I took a Tylenol or Advil. Just about the only things I use are Neosporin on my calluses and NyQuil if I’m a bit run down and have to knock myself out for a night’s sleep.

Vaccines, however, are one place where we absolutely fucking have it right. As we do with infectious-disease prevention and treatment in general. We’re a lot shittier at dealing with chronic diseases and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

Man, I couldn’t have possibly said it better. On all counts. Empowering the patient and making your own ‘knowledge checks’ is a part and parcel of being responsible…but at the same time you have to realize unless you are a professional scientist that you are operating on a MASSIVE handicap compared to people who spent their lives studying this subject, and those people DESERVE your respect even when they get it wrong because the likelihood of YOU a normal joe getting it wrong is much more astronomical.

73

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
If you’re against vaccines, but okay with prescription drugs (and OTC drugs for that matter)…[/quote]

I don’t think many people really feel this way. My hunch is that most anti-vaxxers are against most of modern medicine, period. One interesting thing about me, I guess, is that I will vigorously defend vaccines while at least conceding a modicum of sympathy with the distrust of modern medicine. We do a LOT of shit wrong and I do encourage the whole “empowered patient” and “take charge of your own care” perspective that, sadly, is what’s given rise to anti-vaccine people.

For one example, conventional diet guidelines are fucking awful. The American Heart Association still has this unconscionably bad advice on its web site:

“Liquid vegetable oils such as canola, safflower, sunflower, soybean, and olive can often be used instead of solid fats such as butter, lard or shortening.”

It’s enough to make me want to strangle someone. Instead I’ll go home and cook with butter. That’ll help. Point is, there is a lot of shitty medical advice out there and it has made people distrustful of pretty much everything. So I can at least sympathize with people that want to stay away from modern medicine as much as possible. Hell, I stay away from modern medicine as much as possible - I can’t remember the last time I took a Tylenol or Advil. Just about the only things I use are Neosporin on my calluses and NyQuil if I’m a bit run down and have to knock myself out for a night’s sleep.

Vaccines, however, are one place where we absolutely fucking have it right. As we do with infectious-disease prevention and treatment in general. We’re a lot shittier at dealing with chronic diseases and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

are all vaccines dead? or just the flu shot? does this mean the vaccine can leave your body?
[/quote]

No, not all vaccines are dead, but the vast majority are. Some do not get a sufficient immune response from the body–which is needed if the patient is to become effectively protected–if the vaccine is completely dead. Yellow fever, Typhoid shots–which are required for entry into some countries when traveling, are live. Most are dead yes.

I have no idea what you mean by “the vaccine can leave your body”. No, that is not possible and I do not know of a way for it to be possible.

74

Thanks for the compliments, Aragorn and jjackrash. Rare that I feel like the “expert” on this site, I’ve learned a shitload in some other threads where I just lurked. But here I felt my input might be warranted.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
If you’re against vaccines, but okay with prescription drugs (and OTC drugs for that matter)…[/quote]

I don’t think many people really feel this way. My hunch is that most anti-vaxxers are against most of modern medicine, period. One interesting thing about me, I guess, is that I will vigorously defend vaccines while at least conceding a modicum of sympathy with the distrust of modern medicine. We do a LOT of shit wrong and I do encourage the whole “empowered patient” and “take charge of your own care” perspective that, sadly, is what’s given rise to anti-vaccine people.

For one example, conventional diet guidelines are fucking awful. The American Heart Association still has this unconscionably bad advice on its web site:

“Liquid vegetable oils such as canola, safflower, sunflower, soybean, and olive can often be used instead of solid fats such as butter, lard or shortening.”

It’s enough to make me want to strangle someone. Instead I’ll go home and cook with butter. That’ll help. Point is, there is a lot of shitty medical advice out there and it has made people distrustful of pretty much everything. So I can at least sympathize with people that want to stay away from modern medicine as much as possible. Hell, I stay away from modern medicine as much as possible - I can’t remember the last time I took a Tylenol or Advil. Just about the only things I use are Neosporin on my calluses and NyQuil if I’m a bit run down and have to knock myself out for a night’s sleep.

Vaccines, however, are one place where we absolutely fucking have it right. As we do with infectious-disease prevention and treatment in general. We’re a lot shittier at dealing with chronic diseases and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

are all vaccines dead? or just the flu shot? does this mean the vaccine can leave your body?
[/quote]

Not all vaccines are dead. There are also “live attenuated viruses” which are live viruses that have been weakened under laboratory conditions. Measles and tuberculosis are two that I know of off the top of my head. Polio is one example of a killed-virus vaccine.

I’m not really sure about transmission of live-attenuated virus vaccines into others. Aragorn, do you know what happens if an unvaccinated, immunocompromised person stands next to a vaccinated child on the street and catches the little bugger’s live-attenuated-virus-carrying sneeze? My guess is that it’s pretty low risk.

75

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Vaccines, however, are one place where we absolutely fucking have it right. As we do with infectious-disease prevention and treatment in general. We’re a lot shittier at dealing with chronic diseases and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

Isn’t this because vaccines, and epidemiology when it concerns bacteria/viruses that we know exist and detect, is a lot more straightforward than chronic illnesses and wellness/prevention?

That’s the thing with medicine, and hell science, in general. People expect medicine/science to solve everything, and when it doesn’t people start blaming it for failing them.

Actually, no. Science didn’t fail you. It’s merely that we haven’t figured out that particular issue yet.

No doubt racism and discrimination has a bit to do with it as well. Lots of people call modern medicine “western” medicine and decry it and proclaim the benefits of “eastern” medicine. Wtf? Lots of the herbs and other shit used in Chinese medicine work because of specific chemical compounds and such within the herbs themselves. They do elicit some response, and they do so because of something within the ingredient. There is no difference between herbal medicine and “western” medicine.

Conversely, lots of modern doctors used to claim Chinese medicine and acupuncture doesn’t do shit. Well, while acupuncture may not do everything it claims to, it certainly does help with certain issues, and significantly at that.

76

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
and the entire concept of wellness/prevention.[/quote]

Still not totally convinced that we are as bad at this as we pretend to be. Prevention doesn’t make as much money though so apparently Pharma lobby is beating Insurance lobby. I am paranoid about such things though. Partially because I stayed so sick as a young man, was over prescribed antibiotics, developed pseudomembranous colitis, and have built up a resistance to most antibiotics so it makes me want to question things with my own daughter. I haven’t taken an antibiotic in ten years and am starting to get sick far less often. [/quote]

This is where I was trying to head with the (in my opinion, justified) fear of modern medicine being used incorrectly at times. We do overdiagnose and overtreat a lot of stuff that (in my opinion - stressing that this is my opinion only) probably could be much better managed with a healthier lifestyle, and I do think there are cases where attempted treatments inflict more harm than good.

The problem is that everyone’s still arguing about exactly what a “healthier” lifestyle is. Should we eat whole grains or not? Should we eat less meat? No? More meat and less whole grains? Should I go gluten-free or not? How much should I exercise? Is lifting weights healthy? Is squatting bad for my knees? Should I run a marathon to get in shape? Etc.

I have my own opinions about each of these questions, and believe that the proper answers to these (along with widespread compliance from the public, which is impossible) could drastically reduce the rates of chronic disease, particularly diabetes and atherosclerosis.

Since most doctors can’t even agree about the best diet to prevent Type 2 Diabetes and obesity, much less get their patients to adhere to it, instead we pass out drugs. High cholesterol? Take a statin! High blood pressure? We gotcha covered! Diabetes? No sweat, here’s a pill! You can still have your brownies and ice cream, just make sure to inject your insulin at the right time!

77

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
are all vaccines dead? or just the flu shot? does this mean the vaccine can leave your body?
[/quote]

Vaccinations fundamentally work by having your body develop antibodies that react to the specific virus that causes that particular disease.

For example, if you receive a smallpox vaccination then your body will have the normal immune response and kill off the smallpox within your body. Then it will create antibodies that are designed to alert the body the moment the same virus is detected. In short, your body will respond MUCH quicker and more or less know exactly what to do to deal with that particular virus. Your chance of getting smallpox ever again after a successful smallpox vaccination is virtually nil at this point; provided that you’re not injected with a syringe full of smallpox or something.

It is definitely possible for your body to not develop sufficient amounts of antibodies, or develop a proper immune response against the targeted disease. That’s why certain vaccinations need to done multiple times. Each stage is meant to further develop your immunity towards that disease. You are not safe from that disease until you completely finish the course.

Afaik, all vaccinations are made of either dead cells or severely weakened ones.

This is why you can’t develop vaccinations against the common cold or the flu. Not only is the common cold from a variety of viral infections, but the flu also mutates very rapidly. You get one flu infection and your body will develop antibodies to deal with it. Then you get infected with a very different flu and the antibodies are useless.

78

[quote]magick wrote:
Isn’t this because vaccines, and epidemiology when it concerns bacteria/viruses that we know exist and detect, is a lot more straightforward than chronic illnesses and wellness/prevention?

That’s the thing with medicine, and hell science, in general. People expect medicine/science to solve everything, and when it doesn’t people start blaming it for failing them.

Actually, no. Science didn’t fail you. It’s merely that we haven’t figured out that particular issue yet.

No doubt racism and discrimination has a bit to do with it as well. Lots of people call modern medicine “western” medicine and decry it and proclaim the benefits of “eastern” medicine. Wtf? Lots of the herbs and other shit used in Chinese medicine work because of specific chemical compounds and such within the herbs themselves. They do elicit some response, and they do so because of something within the ingredient. There is no difference between herbal medicine and “western” medicine.

Conversely, lots of modern doctors used to claim Chinese medicine and acupuncture doesn’t do shit. Well, while acupuncture may not do everything it claims to, it certainly does help with certain issues, and significantly at that.[/quote]

This is a great point. Once we figure out an infectious disease, we figure it out and that’s pretty much the ballgame. Chronic diseases are more complex.

Re: the acupuncture issue, semi-related, I told this anecdote once elsewhere on this site:

My ex-GF had chronic neck pain that flared up every once in a while, although yoga and the occasional chiropractic adjustment usually kept it at bay. Once, she was in bad pain and her chiro was out of town, so we made a trip to urgent care. The doc listened to her talk for about 15 seconds and wrote a script for a painkiller. No attempt to treat, no physical examination, etc. At least the damn chiropractor took an interest and tried to problem-solve, get to the root of the issue. This doc was just, nope, here’s a pill, you’ll be fine. No attempt to address the root of the problem.

Sadly, many chiropractors are at the forefront of the anti-vaccine movement. And now we’ve come full circle. Some of the guys trying to fight the good fight, viewing health and wellness as a holistic thing that’s not just taking pills, are also the ones leading the anti-vax charge.

79

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
are all vaccines dead? or just the flu shot? does this mean the vaccine can leave your body?
[/quote]

Vaccinations fundamentally work by having your body develop antibodies that react to the specific virus that causes that particular disease.

For example, if you receive a smallpox vaccination then your body will have the normal immune response and kill off the smallpox within your body. Then it will create antibodies that are designed to alert the body the moment the same virus is detected. In short, your body will respond MUCH quicker and more or less know exactly what to do to deal with that particular virus. Your chance of getting smallpox ever again after a successful smallpox vaccination is virtually nil at this point; provided that you’re not injected with a syringe full of smallpox or something.

It is definitely possible for your body to not develop sufficient amounts of antibodies, or develop a proper immune response against the targeted disease. That’s why certain vaccinations need to done multiple times. Each stage is meant to further develop your immunity towards that disease. You are not safe from that disease until you completely finish the course.

Afaik, all vaccinations are made of either dead cells or severely weakened ones.

This is why you can’t develop vaccinations against the common cold or the flu. Not only is the common cold from a variety of viral infections, but the flu also mutates very rapidly. You get one flu infection and your body will develop antibodies to deal with it. Then you get infected with a very different flu and the antibodies are useless.[/quote]

Thanks for chiming in here. Good stuff.

80

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Sadly, many chiropractors are at the forefront of the anti-vaccine movement. And now we’ve come full circle. Some of the guys trying to fight the good fight, viewing health and wellness as a holistic thing that’s not just taking pills, are also the ones leading the anti-vax charge.[/quote]

Imo most chiropractors are full of it. They’re as bad as the “modern” doctors who prescribe pills. While it’s good to see that they were engaged with your ex-GF, they’re still stuck in their own ideas and concepts and will see things in that manner. I’ve met chiropractors who claimed modern medicine is bunk, and they’re dumb. If nothing else, the vaccination programs of the 20th century is the crowning achievement of modern medicine. That’s why I have such a strong anger towards anti-vaccination people.

The vaccination programs were a triumph in every sense of the word. It is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, and we have people completely ignoring it if not outright saying it’s wrong.

FUCK THEM.

I do have respect for certain Korean (trained in Korea) doctors who practice acupuncture and Chinese medicine. They receive a shit-ton of training in both modern and Chinese medicine and have healthy respect for both. My understanding is that modern acupuncture practitioners know what their stuff can treat and limit it at that- no claims of it being a cure-all and know when to send their patients to the hospital.