Strength Training 5-6 Times/Wk

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
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[quote]LTKO wrote:
casper: i ran 531 last year, got my bench from about 60kgx5- my current 77.5kg. however, my lifts are stagnating so i thought to change it up. btw, in my experience, PLAYING only doesn’t improve your game much. you’ve got to TRAIN the skills, and then put them into practice while playing to get the best results.

animus: i think its pretty low volume to what i’m doing right now actually…but the intensity is high. that’s what i’m worried about.

sam: so any opinions?

powertower + crit: why is it bad maxing out everyday? bad for the CNS? honest question. how about if you use % like 531, is it still bad to do so?

powertower: i thought if you wanted to get better at a lift, you do it more? oh, and strength has helped me tremendously for basketball! better to get rebounds and box out even though i can’t jump high. post game has also improved. (: i think strength is very very important for most if not all contact sports! and most agree in the speed and explosiveness community agree that 1.5-2x bw squat and deadlift should be reached for pylos and sprinting to be most effective. (: so till i reach that…

rampantbadger: seems to be that the creator wants the guys to be burned out from the training? which is not at all for me with my bball training. i am curious though, i thought it is usually volume/intensity and not both? as it will “wear you out” ? thanks though! (:

[/quote]

Yeah, I did something similar and logged it if you’re interested. I can’t recall exactly, but it looked something like this:

Sunday: Smolov Jr Bench - 8x4, front squats and deficit pulls
Monday: Smolov Front Squats, overhead lift, pin pulls
Tuesday: 10x3 Bench and upper body
Wednesday: Front sqauts, Overhead lift
Thursday: Same as Tuesday but with 6x6 instead
Friday: Front squats, bench, pulls
Saturday: Same as Wednesday

I got stronger and leaner, but I was pretty tired, obviously. It started off with Saturday as a rest day, but I found that on Sunday having taken a day off, I felt awful, so I stopped doing that and I did that for about forty days with no day off, it worked well.

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  1. Skills training, in particular shooting when you’re fresh. Muscular/CNS fatigue from lifting can alter movement patterns, and skills patterns more so than just fatigue from a practice/game.

  2. Progress through plyos. The biggest issue I see with youth athletics and plyos is that they have no clue which ones are hard on them, and which ones are easy. Learning how to properly progress through plyos is more important than only starting them when you have 1.5x squat/deadlift.

2.5 - This kind of relates to the point above, but learn how to stop yourself and deccelerate properly. Most injuries not because an athlete generates so much force that his body can’t handle it, but because their body can’t control said force enough to slow down and/or stop. Learn to slow down, stop, and land properly. I cannot emphasize this enough especially as a basketball player where quick directional movements and change of pace as well as jumping are so paramount to the game.

  1. Your recovery abilities are limited. Yes more CAN be better but only if you CAN recover from it. Maxing out daily - especially when you haven’t been doing it for 20+ years like the bulgarians for those who are going to make the argument that they do it often, is a great way to tax athletes that are already running close to max recovery abilities most likely, especially in-season. Learn to listen to your body and find out if you’re actually recovering or not.

  2. Actually think out your training, don’t try to piecemeal a ton of different powerlifting programs together when you don’t understand the concept of what each one is attempting to do.

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liquid: thanks for taking the time to type that all out. really solid advice.

for 1) i try to make from 200-250 shots, including stuff like crossover pull up, pull up off the dribble, catch and shoot etc. takes alot out of my arms and especially my legs. so how do i do this right exactly? shoot morning, train in the afternoon?

  1. ok cool. ill be re-reading the vert thread and vert jump bible again. see which simple ones i can start with.

2.5) i’m actually so slow that i don’t think i need help decelerating… ):

3)yea…someone once said, just cause you can do more, doesn’t mean it’s better for you.

  1. yea, for sure. (:

sam: no rest??? that’s hella crazy! id be sure to chk out your log. (:

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“GOAL:
-to be a better basketball player
-to be strong as a strong athlete > a weak athlete”

LTKO, that was in your OP, that is why I gave you the advise of skills first.
If you were a powerlifter and wanted to use bball as conditioning you would do the opposite.
No matter what, improving as a basketball player will make the most difference in achieving your goals.

As far as when, I always try to schedule my sport specific training first, preferably in the AM if thats possible.

You need to think WHY are you doing the things you are. Does improving your one rep max on the bench directly correlate into being a better bball player? In my experience, I would say no. You need to become stronger overall, not only in the strength department but in the conditioning and most importantly the skills.

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[quote]LTKO wrote:
liquid: thanks for taking the time to type that all out. really solid advice.

for 1) i try to make from 200-250 shots, including stuff like crossover pull up, pull up off the dribble, catch and shoot etc. takes alot out of my arms and especially my legs. so how do i do this right exactly? shoot morning, train in the afternoon?

  1. ok cool. ill be re-reading the vert thread and vert jump bible again. see which simple ones i can start with.

2.5) i’m actually so slow that i don’t think i need help decelerating… ):
[/quote]

  1. Shooting morning and training in the afternoon wouldn’t be a bad idea at all.
    2.5 - Slow people usually have even less control over their bodies and learning to decelerate/land/stop.
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[quote]LTKO wrote:
liquid: thanks for taking the time to type that all out. really solid advice.

for 1) i try to make from 200-250 shots, including stuff like crossover pull up, pull up off the dribble, catch and shoot etc. takes alot out of my arms and especially my legs. so how do i do this right exactly? shoot morning, train in the afternoon?

  1. ok cool. ill be re-reading the vert thread and vert jump bible again. see which simple ones i can start with.

2.5) i’m actually so slow that i don’t think i need help decelerating… ):

3)yea…someone once said, just cause you can do more, doesn’t mean it’s better for you.

  1. yea, for sure. (:

sam: no rest??? that’s hella crazy! id be sure to chk out your log. (:[/quote]

I wasn’t suggesting you replicate it, just saying that it can be done. It was around December-February if you’re looking for it.

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[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
PS Dont wanna start a shit storm, just putting the idea forward. [/quote]

if you are going to bring up high frequency max effort workouts, maybe something like the bulgarian method, you may also want to bring up that most people cant handle it. and not that it doesnt work or isnt safe, but for the fact that you have to build up to that level of work capacity and recovery ability.

many world class athletes that use that method are world class for a reason. and they also do more then most to speed up recovery. so this example only works on the extreme not the average joe that is not sure what to do anyways.

most people just dont understand the relationship between intensity, volume, frequency as well as recovery and conditioning work so they can further adjust the relationship between those 3 variables. this IMO is the main reason why people claim how one workout is great for them while another sucks.

its that they know how to program for one setup of frequency, intensity and volume and try to apply that idea to workout plan that requires a completely different setup. so they failed to plan properly and that is why it appears their body did not respond to the workout. the workout simply sucked.

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[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:

if you are going to bring up high frequency max effort workouts, maybe something like the bulgarian method, you may also want to bring up that most people cant handle it. and not that it doesnt work or isnt safe, but for the fact that you have to build up to that level of work capacity and recovery ability.

many world class athletes that use that method are world class for a reason. and they also do more then most to speed up recovery. so this example only works on the extreme not the average joe that is not sure what to do anyways.

most people just dont understand the relationship between intensity, volume, frequency as well as recovery and conditioning work so they can further adjust the relationship between those 3 variables. this IMO is the main reason why people claim how one workout is great for them while another sucks.

its that they know how to program for one setup of frequency, intensity and volume and try to apply that idea to workout plan that requires a completely different setup. so they failed to plan properly and that is why it appears their body did not respond to the workout. the workout simply sucked. [/quote]

+1

When people are on programs, they need to look at how volume, frequency, and intensity change in the program over the week, over the month, over any mesocycles, and over the cycle as a whole.

“Max effort” is a relative term in the grand scheme of how programs actually function and how coaches define it from day to day, even those who don’t use any formal periodization.

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[quote]Spock81 wrote:
damn, where is that daraz person to make an annoying comment about mixing a bunch of PL programs together.

Waiting**[/quote]
LOL

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OP, Check this one out:

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malaka + liquidmerc: as much as i don’t like the idea…i guess it’s true. i’ll try to slowly work into it though. have no idea how ill be able to squat after going hard on shooting and dribbling in the morning.

liquid: ouch. it sucks so much to be slow.

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sam: it’ll be cool to check out how you felt during those 40 days. how beat up your body and joints were. ill be checking it out.

asson+animus: anywhere i can read up on stuff like that? i’m gonna take sports science in university so this thread is really good information for me. (:

*i guess it’s like putting a normal guy with a normal life on a routine which the chinese olympic and weightlifters use. even though they got very strong on it, it’s not gonna work as theyve been training for it pretty much their whole lives?

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[quote]LTKO wrote:
*i guess it’s like putting a normal guy with a normal life on a routine which the chinese olympic and weightlifters use. even though they got very strong on it, it’s not gonna work as theyve been training for it pretty much their whole lives?

[/quote]

i know my opinion is invalid. But i dont agree with this. Every person has the ability to do amazing things and achieve an elite status in whatever sport they participate in, however 99.9% of the population dont want to feel like shit for periods of time and/or dont/willing to make the time & give 100%. and i dont know of one athlete out of any sport in the world who got from the bottom to the top without training 7x(+) a week. The harlem globetrotters for example trained multiple times per day with crazy intensity.

But in relation to taking people and doing olympic/high intensity powerlifting programs (like a bulgarian method, tweaked for powerlifting - John Broz style) you have to read into john broz. His gym “average broz gymnasium” has a 16year old girl who squats 7x a week (or more).

You cant tell me that you need to have amazing genetics or be an elite athlete to do a program like the bulgarian method when youve got a 16 year old school girl doing it, just need to be willing to accept the “dark times” that the method brings, and the mental and physical stress that it brings also, normal people dont want to do that, let alone get off the couch. But seeing as your obviously dedicated to basketball and strength training i am guessing you are not a “normal” person.

Thats just my opinion, I may be 110% wrong.

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if i were you i would strength train 2 or 3 times a week and no more. I would do something like day 1 squats/bench,day 2 deadlift/chinups,rows day 3 overheadpress/split squat or front squats instead of split squats if you have the energy, some core and a little bit of arm work and shoulder stability work. And then focus on the basketball

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[quote]LTKO wrote:
*i guess it’s like putting a normal guy with a normal life on a routine which the chinese olympic and weightlifters use. even though they got very strong on it, it’s not gonna work as theyve been training for it pretty much their whole lives?

[/quote]

No one actually maxes every week, day-in and day-out. Doing it at a high frequency is just asking your body to break down. It turns it into high intensity, high volume (even if your reps are low), and high frequency… all the time.

Westside has phases over months (check out the Westside thread for more info). Even though Simmons says “we max every week,” it doesn’t necessarily mean that. A “max” means different things at different times. One week, you might max for 5. Another, you might max for 3, 2, 1… and even so, your 5 max one week could be significantly less intense because you’re not “feeling it” that day. And then you have the lighter speed and repeated effort days in a week to ease up on intensity as well.

Joe DeFranco, Dan John, Mark Twight, and Mike Tushcherer all use different variations on RPE (and all use different names for it or don’t name it at all) where the athlete decides the day-of whether it’s a “good” day or a “bad” day, determining the intensity.

Old-school linear periodization builds up to max weights. Non-linear periodization does waves of intensity.

The problem isn’t your frequency, necessarily. It’s that there’s no actual plan. You can’t max every week. You definitely can’t max every day. What’s your LONG term plan? You say you have six months? Okay, great, plan the program for six months.

Look at what the Oly-lifters and powerlifters are actually doing across time. Don’t listen to what they say they do, because you end up missing the bigger picture.

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right now… i’m actually doing what i think is high volume high intensity… 5 days a week. push/pull/legs/rest/push/pull+legs. i take a 3day break after every 3 week cycle. so i guess this will be a good experience for me regardless if it works or not. on my 3rd cycle of it.

i use 531 percentages for the BP,squat,DL.

monday: Bench, 531%.
incline bench, 3x6-8
incline DB bench, 3x8-12
front+lateral raise superset, 3x8-12

tuesday: cleans
deadlift, 531%
hamstring curl, 4x8-10
heavy db rows,4x6-10
weighted low back extension, 3x8-12
rear delt+bicep SS, 3x8-12

wed: rest

thursday: repeat monday using 5rep max from 531%

friday: weighted pull ups( to 3 rep max)
heavy db rows, 4x6-10
latpulldowns/bbrows,3x8-10
rear delt+bicep SS, 3x8-12

saturday: squat 531%
squat 5x5 at 50%.
abs

-all this + bball skills training after every gym session. usually 1.5hours. and usually bball games in the evening during lower body/rest days. about 1hour total playing time

-i actually get about 8-9hours of sleep at night + 30mins-1hour of sleep in the afternoon. i guess why i’m able to do this right now is because i’m waiting for university, and not taking up a job yet. so all i do is train,sleep,eat repeat.

well…got about one week left to end the third cycle. will finish it up before going back to 531 most probably.(unless i miraculously start hitting PRs left and right) just wanted to test out if training more would help me gain more.

notes on how i feel: i feel sore, almost all the time. strength levels have been stagnating a little for some lifts. i still look forward to training though (except squats, i never look forward to squats. :/), but i’m a pretty motivated guy. still love basketball with all my heart.

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animus: ok, i kinda get it? read through modoks training thread, the one bodypart a week thread. he does high frequency too. and i noticed his rep scheme changes every week and actually every session. i.e 8-10,4-6 etc. thanks for the advice! i guess sometimes you wanna get strong FAST and forget that it’s not a sprint, and it’s a lifelong marathon of gaining and learning. (: i’d be sure to look into the westside thread and read up on periodization.

will probably stick to 531.