[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
98 percent of big bodybuilders train like that, just throwing that one out there (once again).
So you’re saying only 2% train correctly?
(Sorry, you left that one hanging.)[/quote]
Yes indeed.
After all, if all of us did the latest insertauthornamehere program with 310 or 48 as straight sets on every exercise and using supersets and short rest periods, certainly we (and every pro out there) would actually be huge!
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
ebraunschweiler wrote:
Hey Prof X, when you pyramid up do you go to failure on each set? thx
If you were to do that, then you’d tire yourself out on your light sets already.
Makes getting strong on your heavy set pretty damn hard 
[/quote]
'Nuff said.
Bodybuilding is about common sense. If it is uncommon to you, you are probably thinking too hard.
This is like women trying to find out how the minds of their boyfriends work by reading 400 page romance novels. Guys are simple. We like to eat, fuck, drink, play games and then repeat. It doesn’t take thousands of peer reviewed studies to figure that out and no calculators need to be powered up.
Thanks PX, CC and Airtruth. That’s what I thought as well. The pyramiding down doesn’t make much sense to me. Most of the time I just pyramid up to my working set/s and make sure I get stronger for that set every workout. How about backoff sets? Are there any benefits to that or is it just a waste of time?
For e.g.
90 x 12
100 x 10
120 x 6
130 x 5 (heaviest set to failure)
120 x 8 (hard set as well)
So there are two working sets with the first one being lower rep than the second one. Is this just another example of pyramiding down? Thanks
maraudermeat wrote:
I personally pyramid up for warm up sets and then when i get to my working sets i usually do 5x5 or 3x3 depending on the training cycle. 5x5 is usually done with a weight in the 80% range of my 1 RM and 3x3 is done with around 90%.
After my working sets i will sometimes drop down and do one or two sets in the 60-70% range and go to failure.
I feel this is the best way to increase strength and size at the same time. pyramiding up to one heavy set is not nearly enough to increase strength substantially. IMHO
How do you handle progression when doing 5x5 or 3x3? Do you move up in weight once you get all the reps and then increase weight and work back up to getting all the reps in every set?
so wait, are drop sets useless then if pyramiding down isn’t a good idea?
[quote]SquatDeep385 wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
I personally pyramid up for warm up sets and then when i get to my working sets i usually do 5x5 or 3x3 depending on the training cycle. 5x5 is usually done with a weight in the 80% range of my 1 RM and 3x3 is done with around 90%.
After my working sets i will sometimes drop down and do one or two sets in the 60-70% range and go to failure.
I feel this is the best way to increase strength and size at the same time. pyramiding up to one heavy set is not nearly enough to increase strength substantially. IMHO
How do you handle progression when doing 5x5 or 3x3? Do you move up in weight once you get all the reps and then increase weight and work back up to getting all the reps in every set?[/quote]
good question. most people don’t know how to perform a 5x5 or 3x3 correctly. most people get caught up in thinking that they have to get all five sets of five reps or all three sets of three reps. if you can get all of them then the weight is way too light. what you should do is pick a weight that you can get the first set for all five or three reps leaving on rep in the tank. then each set after that you will probably start dropping reps. you DON"T want to go to failure on this stuff. always leave a rep in the tank. so a normal progression would look like this-
bench press
495x5
495x4
495x4
495x3
495x2
this is what a good 5x5 would look like. this is what my normal fatigue would look like over 5 sets. i would stick with this weight again next time and if i got the first two sets for all 5’s then i would up the weight by 5 or 10 pounds the next week. i typically stick to a set routine for a four week cycle, take a deload week and then retest my max on that particular area.
[quote]NeedforStrength wrote:
so wait, are drop sets useless then if pyramiding down isn’t a good idea?[/quote]
nothing is useless and everything works for awhile.
what’s useless is letting people tell you that one thing is better than another. everyone is different. in the beginning and even today, i try everything. somethings work at times while others don’t. training is a constantly changing thing throughout your lifting career. the ability to keep an open mind about training is what will put you in the small percentage of people that actually succeed.
try it all… see what works… use it until it doesn’t work anymore… then try something else.
Umm, all you guys are idiots.
I’ve been training properly now, much better than I used to. Lifting my 84.2% RM and stopping my sets right before I start breaking a sweat. You may think that is just stupid, but you’re a dumb meathead. You see the important thing is to lift it FAST. THAT’s whats gonna make you huge.
Howabout you overly tanned, overly muscular, waddling sacks of uneducated flesh pick up a scientific journal and start making some REAL progress (the functional kind).
Taufiq,
to answer your question. There was a discussion a while back and a few lifters were in agreement that a “heavy” working 6-8 rep set followed by a “slightly lighter” working 10-12 rep set works for some people.
Once you can handle 8 reps on the first set maybe it’s time to add a little weight to both sets.
Say bench press or squat. A bigger lift usually works well but as others have said it’s simply one tool to try.
[quote]FatPat wrote:
Taufiq,
to answer your question. There was a discussion a while back and a few lifters were in agreement that a “heavy” working 6-8 rep set followed by a “slightly lighter” working 10-12 rep set works for some people.
Once you can handle 8 reps on the first set maybe it’s time to add a little weight to both sets.
Say bench press or squat. A bigger lift usually works well but as others have said it’s simply one tool to try.[/quote]
Thank you very much FatPat. Do you mind giving me the link to that discussion or the key word for that thread?
[quote]NeedforStrength wrote:
so wait, are drop sets useless then if pyramiding down isn’t a good idea?[/quote]
I’ll let the big guys take this one; but as a preliminary response - I don’t know why you’re making the connection between the two… they’re totally different.
IMO, drop sets aren’t very practical for actual bodybuilding. I could see if performance athletes needed them for muscular endurance… or if PL’ers somehow incorporate them into a routine or something.
I’ve been sticking to straight pyramids and Surprise I move weight or reps up and practically every exercise almost every workout. It’s almost too simple.
[quote]SSC wrote:
NeedforStrength wrote:
so wait, are drop sets useless then if pyramiding down isn’t a good idea?
I’ll let the big guys take this one; but as a preliminary response - I don’t know why you’re making the connection between the two… they’re totally different.
IMO, drop sets aren’t very practical for actual bodybuilding. I could see if performance athletes needed them for muscular endurance… or if PL’ers somehow incorporate them into a routine or something.
I’ve been sticking to straight pyramids and Surprise I move weight or reps up and practically every exercise almost every workout. It’s almost too simple.[/quote]
I can’t even remember the last time I did drop sets. If I were to do anything like that, it would be a rare occurrence.
Drop sets… Hmm.
I’ve tried them for months on end, but they don’t really make me stronger at the rate that other ways to go about sets do.
So for me personally, they’re pretty damn useless and none of the guys I’m lending a hand, training wise, are using them.
Others swear by them, though…
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
good question. most people don’t know how to perform a 5x5 or 3x3 correctly. most people get caught up in thinking that they have to get all five sets of five reps or all three sets of three reps. if you can get all of them then the weight is way too light. what you should do is pick a weight that you can get the first set for all five or three reps leaving on rep in the tank. then each set after that you will probably start dropping reps. you DON"T want to go to failure on this stuff. always leave a rep in the tank. so a normal progression would look like this-
bench press
495x5
495x4
495x4
495x3
495x2
this is what a good 5x5 would look like. this is what my normal fatigue would look like over 5 sets. i would stick with this weight again next time and if i got the first two sets for all 5’s then i would up the weight by 5 or 10 pounds the next week. i typically stick to a set routine for a four week cycle, take a deload week and then retest my max on that particular area.
[/quote]
so you always leave one set in the tank meaning you could really get a 5th rep on that 2nd set and a 4th one on that 4th set, etc…? what if next time it feels the same, you don’t progress at all because you want to leave on in the tank? or do you just push another rep anyway and ignore the rule so you can make progress?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
good question. most people don’t know how to perform a 5x5 or 3x3 correctly. most people get caught up in thinking that they have to get all five sets of five reps or all three sets of three reps. if you can get all of them then the weight is way too light. what you should do is pick a weight that you can get the first set for all five or three reps leaving on rep in the tank. then each set after that you will probably start dropping reps. you DON"T want to go to failure on this stuff. always leave a rep in the tank. so a normal progression would look like this-
bench press
495x5
495x4
495x4
495x3
495x2
this is what a good 5x5 would look like. this is what my normal fatigue would look like over 5 sets. i would stick with this weight again next time and if i got the first two sets for all 5’s then i would up the weight by 5 or 10 pounds the next week. i typically stick to a set routine for a four week cycle, take a deload week and then retest my max on that particular area.
so you always leave one set in the tank meaning you could really get a 5th rep on that 2nd set and a 4th one on that 4th set, etc…? what if next time it feels the same, you don’t progress at all because you want to leave on in the tank? or do you just push another rep anyway and ignore the rule so you can make progress?[/quote]
my goal is to not go to failure on Max Effort movements. so the rule of thumb is to leave a rep in the tank. If my training is progressing, the next time i come in to attempt this 5x5 i should get that 5th rep and still have another rep left. If for some reason i stall on this movement then i know it’s time to move on to another variation. the body adapts quickly to training. the challenge is to stay ahead of the adaptation.
Interesting.
I always thought you were supposed to stay at a certain weight until you could do all sets at 5 reps, then you progress. I don’t know why I thought that, I guess I just assumed from the name that you determined progression by the ability to do that.
Lately, I’ve been doing 6 sets, but progressing when I can get at least 25 reps out of 5 sets, if that makes any sense to anybody.
Today, for instance, looked like this:
265X5
265X4
265X4
265X4
265X4
265X3
Based on what you said, might I get better results by moving up to 275 next time around, and progressing when I get 275X5 for the first two sets? Not that I’m complaining about my current results, I’m just interested in seeing if I can do better… I’ve been progressing in weight about 10 lbs every week and a half to two weeks, but I know that won’t last forever.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
…most people don’t know how to perform a 5x5 or 3x3 correctly…
bench press
495x5
495x4
495x4
495x3
495x2
this is what a good 5x5 would look like.
[/quote]
I’m not disputing that this is a good method of training. Not my point at all.
What I am calling into question is why you call this 5x5.
It is not.
Now, those who care to do so can use words any way they want. They can call curls “extensions,” squats “deadlifts,” cats “dogs,” the number two “seven,” and so forth.
But it makes communication damned difficult and is pointless.
What you describe is five sets.
Not 5 sets of five.
Nor is it striving for 5 sets of five though sometimes falling short on reps, with a new weight, and then striving to add reps to get back up to it. Rather, what you describe is planning absolutely NOT to do 5 sets of five.
A fine method of training – not in dispute – that’s not the point.
You’ve got at least two very large very strong men commenting on this.
maraudermeat and Professor X
Judging by posts I’ve seen in the past, Bill Roberts and Cephalic Carnage are probably in that category also.
lots of good info here… thanks guys!!
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
…most people don’t know how to perform a 5x5 or 3x3 correctly…
bench press
495x5
495x4
495x4
495x3
495x2
this is what a good 5x5 would look like.
I’m not disputing that this is a good method of training. Not my point at all.
What I am calling into question is why you call this 5x5.
It is not.
Now, those who care to do so can use words any way they want. They can call curls “extensions,” squats “deadlifts,” cats “dogs,” the number two “seven,” and so forth.
But it makes communication damned difficult and is pointless.
What you describe is five sets.
Not 5 sets of five.
Nor is it striving for 5 sets of five though sometimes falling short on reps, with a new weight, and then striving to add reps to get back up to it. Rather, what you describe is planning absolutely NOT to do 5 sets of five.
A fine method of training – not in dispute – that’s not the point. [/quote]
I agree.
Almost everyone does this though when they layout their training.
I used to think when a bodybuilder or someone said they do 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps, that it was with the same weight for all 3-4 sets.
When really their training usually goes like:
135lbs x 12
225lbs x 10
315lbs x 10
405lbs x as many as possible (usually 8)
That what? 3 warm up sets and 1 work set?