No worries. We just want nothing to do, in any way, with finding/suggesting sources.
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I think that is probably right. For aging, we assumed every 10 degrees is a factor of 2X aging (for medical device testing). I think optimal would be around a steady 10 C, where crystallization isnāt a concern. Also keep it from light.
One area of concern for a fridge as a good storage spot is fluctuation in temperature. That can accelerate aging. When you open and close the door of your fridge, the temp can change quite a lot. You could place your vials in a liquid bath (you might grow some stuff too if you leave it long enough) in the fridge to attenuate the temperature fluctuation.
If you have a basement which stays cool consistently (doesnāt fluctuate), putting it in the dark in the basement is a good option.
Crashed simply means the hormone has reverted to crystalline form.
I never said anything about if it can be salvaged.
Crashed is crashed.
People seem to think it automatically means itās trash but that isnāt always the case.
Go look up your melting points for dhb cyp, tren ace, and mast prop. Heating a crashed vial with one of those would require quite a bit of heat depending on solvents used. You could very easily turn the vial into a tiny glass bomb.
So be careful and remember to use a venting needle if you have to hear a vial to any sort of hormone melting point.
It sure sounded like you implied that. But itās all good. Sounds like weāre all on the same page.
This is the typical approximation we use in synthetic chemistry when the variables for the Arrhenius equation arenāt known (which, in my experience, is always). We assume a 10 C increase will double the rate constant.
Redissolving a precipitate is not about melting, itās about solute-solvent interactions. Table salt doesnāt have to melt to dissolve in water. If you have a heating pad, wrap the vial in that - it should provide sufficient energy for solvation.
This is a really good idea. You could use salt water to prevent microbial growth. This would also decrease the rate of evaporation.
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They make small chillers for women to keep certain make up products inā¦ might be something that would work if you donāt want a whole mini fridge
In order to salvage crashed gear you have to heat it to melting point, that melting point varies with solvents used. Either way that vial is a tiny little closed space that you are attempting to heat. You can put a venting needle in but that allows air in and outā¦you are trying to finish with a sterile product. And even if you do hear it there is no guarantee it will melt and hold. The hormone acts differently in smaller containers, I think it has to do with how it transfers heat aka how it cools down.
I personally am a home brewer and I have been on this quest to finally have a workable oil based winny recipe. 95% of injectable winny is water based and that is just a petri dish. If winny crashed in the vial after you process it, then it will re melt but it will NEVER hold like that.
Itās been quite a journey for me to find a recipe that holds after brewing and holds during the vacuum filter AND holds once in the vials.
Admittedly winny is the outlier but still.
I guess my over all message is donāt crash gear if you donāt have to or if it is as simple as not refrigerating it.
I noticed someone had commented on carrier oil oxidizing. I does do that during some high temp brews but overall if your oil is oxidizing there is something going on that you want to stop.
When a vial sits on the shelf there is basically not oxygen in it other than that tiny space.
So if you have a vial that turns dark over time, donāt use it.
As far as how long does stuff actually last, depends on how well it was made and how much BA was in it. BA will lose its ability to preserve and keep stuff sterile but it needs oxygen to break it down.
There is also some contradictory info in regards to how long oil stays good. Those experation dates on the bottles of pure grape seed oil are for raw oil. Our vials have BA in them helping keep everything Alive out of the oil and helping preserve it. So GSO with BA in it last longer than raw GSO.
I also have a theory about a vacuum in the vial helping crash but the jury is out on that.
If you have to reheat a vial and use a venting needle, you will have a vacuum of you take the needle out before it cools down. If you leave the needle in as it cools so that the air pressure can equalize, you will invite in foreign air particles.
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Same experience with that equation. Never had all the variables, so we just did 2X every 10 degrees.
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This is the rule of thumb used for chemical reactions. It is alright to use but can be awfully inaccurate.
I saw that @spiceweasel and @mnben87 already discussed this. And @anon18050987 provided his parameters. Nice discussion guys
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Isnāt the 2X for 10 C change supposed to be very conservative? Like at a minimum it is accelerated aging by 2X? Using the equation (knowing your variables) could potentially get you to 3X aging with 10 C for your test set up?
2-4x is the usually used corridor. That shall encompass most reactions. Thereās some reactions where it severely overestimates the influence of temperature and some where it severely underestimates it. Iām not aware of a general consensus that the number of reactions under this range is far smaller than then number of reactions over it (which youād assume if it was a conservative estimation). Iād speculate itās a Gaussian distribution with the peak at somewhere between two and three.
I once took some examples and made a table of reactions for which it was over/underestimating to get a feel for the accuracy, but this was years ago.
Maybe @spiceweasel can clarify.
Pay attention to the hormones on that mix along with itās concentration.
I guarantee you that of you take a vial of 2 %ba 20% bb qs carrier oil of choice and a concentration of test enanthate at 250mgs per ml and put it into the fridge it will get slightly cloudy as the hormone goes back into tiny crystals. Take the vial out of the fridge and it will slowly clear up.
If the vial does not go cloudy in the fridge either you donāt have a total of 250mgs per ml or it is flat out trash which could be from bad raws.
And putting test enanthate in the freezer to check it is an old school method of sorta testing a new vial to see if it is legit.
That stuff they stored cold is a very very weak concentration thatās not a AAS type preparation.
Putting that in this thread is going to get dumb people thinking it means any and every hormone should be stored in a fridge.
Also please note the preparations on that letter were with peach oil, and NO pharmaceutical company nor any UGL would ever use peach oil unless there was a reason forcing them to. You might think oil is oil but no the thicker oils behave differently than the ones used in common brewing. So for all those guys that think that letter means they can freeze their gear and not worry aboutā¦think again.
I also have to point out that of you really read that it sounds like they choose concentrations they knew would hold at the given specifications because they were really looking at the oils behavior.
If you want to calculate the MG concentration for the test prop in that letter. Test prop in raw form weighs 1.1grams per ml. So thatās .909 * .05(%) which equates to about 45mgs per ML.
Interesting fact test enanthate can hold at 250mgs without BB but it needs a higher BA and it is hard to hold like that in GSO and CSO. Most brewers say MIG 840 or MCT.
And everything I have put on this thread, I assumed you all knew BB was in the mix. I kept saying solvents because with some of these trickier hormones the home brewers and UGLs are not even using BB in the mix.
Im not even sure that was posted in response to me or not I just saw it and had to point out that stuff.
Iām not trying to hate or anything.
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NO I MEAN MELTING POINT!!!
I can brew winny in nothing but solvents and it will go clear when I heat it to just sterilize it but it will never hold long term.
I can do a brew with 20% bb and 1%ba in MCT (an oil that can take the 450 degree heat needed for winny without burning) then heat it to the 450 hold that for three hours and then and only then with the winny hold. Of I do two hours it doesnāt hold.
You HAVE to get to the melting point to have a smooth finished product. It might still hold if you donāt go all the way and take long e ought at temp but you will most likely have a product that causes PIP.
I use to not heat for very long and only to sterilize. I would have knots in my muscle from the solution crashing in my muscle. Once I started heating to melting point (usually higher than what it takes to sterilize) then and only then did I have a product that didnāt cause PIP.
Another way for this to be said and hopefully understood is something I learned from a serious manufacturer Level brewer. He taught me that the solvents are only there to help hold the melted hormone in the oil. If you rely on them to dissolve or help melt the hormone you will never create as smooth of a product as you could with relying on heat to melt the hormone.
Itās like BA. People want to use BA to sterilize and it WILL kill germs but thatās not itās primary job heck thatās not even it secondary job, itās a positive side effect. Itās job is to preserve the product. Heat is used to sterilize and kill germs.
I will admit I have some difficulty explaining this.
I will say this another way. Giaucol a VERY potent organic solvent will not hold winny by itself even if it is 100%. Yet winny will hold with only BB of you have the correct oil in which you can properly heat the winny.
PIP is just the hormone crashing once it is in your muscle. The theory is our muscle goes and absorbs the BA first (why it stings sometimes after a shot) then the BB is absorbed leaving the hormone and oil. If you have not COMPLETELY melted the hormone during the brew it can and will revert to crystalline form in your muscle. Dissolving the hormone is not the same as melting it.
I use to have test enanthate that caused PIP and test enanthate melts at a around body temp. Once I held it on the heat long enough for everything to completely melt while stirring itā¦no more PIP and I even went up in concentration.
No solvent can take the place of proper heat, proper tone at heat, and stirring. These all vary with each hormone, solvents and carrier oil used.