Stoning in Somalia

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]pat wrote:
Brayton wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

No, this is what happens when shari’ah wins. They’re just doing what Mohammed did when he was alive.

Too many people are willing to ignore this.

I have no problem with individual Muslims but there is enough of this stuff in Islam to cause trouble. I wish there was a solution.

So true. And unlike modern Christians they haven’t learned to ignore a lot of their canon. The answer probably lies there.

Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Deuteronomy is a book of the Pentateuch, not a part of canon law. This would make it more applicable to Judaism than Christianity. Still I think you analysis is incorrect, but I do not have the time to really dig in to your thought process and attempt to dispel your agenda. The Old Testament is a series of extremes existing in dichotomy in order to drive home a point. To really get it, I believe you really need to understand it’s audience. Sometimes they needed their ass whipped in to shape, sometimes they needed mercy, sometimes they needed the shit scared out of them. They had to stay unified to stay strong enough to exist as a nation, otherwise they would have been slaughtered. These texts accomplished that for the unwashed masses. [/quote]

I think my explanation worked a lot better. Are you Roman CAtholic?

22

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Uh, yeah. That has to do with Jesus fulfilling everything written in the “Law and Prophets” (Matthew 5:17) rather than us just ignoring them. It’s the same reason we don’t celebrate Passover, or worship at the temple mount, or sacrifice goats and sheep. We have what all those things pointed to.

Thanks for the response. I’ve never heard that before. You think that’s the ONLY reason?

Absolutely.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=W24&q=jesus+true+israel+site%3Akimriddlebarger.squarespace.com&btnG=Search[/quote]

Thanks for the link. So God’s comments in the Old Testament are more or less null and void because of Jesus? I’m not trying to sound like a d-bag or anything, I’m just trying to get at the heart of this.

23

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
pat wrote:
Brayton wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

No, this is what happens when shari’ah wins. They’re just doing what Mohammed did when he was alive.

Too many people are willing to ignore this.

I have no problem with individual Muslims but there is enough of this stuff in Islam to cause trouble. I wish there was a solution.

So true. And unlike modern Christians they haven’t learned to ignore a lot of their canon. The answer probably lies there.

Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Deuteronomy is a book of the Pentateuch, not a part of canon law. This would make it more applicable to Judaism than Christianity. Still I think you analysis is incorrect, but I do not have the time to really dig in to your thought process and attempt to dispel your agenda. The Old Testament is a series of extremes existing in dichotomy in order to drive home a point. To really get it, I believe you really need to understand it’s audience. Sometimes they needed their ass whipped in to shape, sometimes they needed mercy, sometimes they needed the shit scared out of them. They had to stay unified to stay strong enough to exist as a nation, otherwise they would have been slaughtered. These texts accomplished that for the unwashed masses.

I think my explanation worked a lot better. Are you Roman CAtholic?
[/quote]

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for 12 years and the above explanation was more or less given to me by various teachers.

24

[quote]pat wrote:
Brayton wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

No, this is what happens when shari’ah wins. They’re just doing what Mohammed did when he was alive.

Too many people are willing to ignore this.

I have no problem with individual Muslims but there is enough of this stuff in Islam to cause trouble. I wish there was a solution.

So true. And unlike modern Christians they haven’t learned to ignore a lot of their canon. The answer probably lies there.

Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Deuteronomy is a book of the Pentateuch, not a part of canon law. This would make it more applicable to Judaism than Christianity. Still I think you analysis is incorrect, but I do not have the time to really dig in to your thought process and attempt to dispel your agenda.

The Old Testament is a series of extremes existing in dichotomy in order to drive home a point. To really get it, I believe you really need to understand it’s audience. Sometimes they needed their ass whipped in to shape, sometimes they needed mercy, sometimes they needed the shit scared out of them.

They had to stay unified to stay strong enough to exist as a nation, otherwise they would have been slaughtered. These texts accomplished that for the unwashed masses. [/quote]

I’m not really sure what my agenda is other than trying to clear up why Muslims cling to their less than favorable passages when most Christians don’t. That’s a good point about it being a part of the pentateuch.

There is plenty in the New Testament that is less than savory that also gets ignored, though, for seemingly the same reasons. But that wouldn’t really jibe with what PRCal is saying… I dont think.

25

[quote]Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Uh, yeah. That has to do with Jesus fulfilling everything written in the “Law and Prophets” (Matthew 5:17) rather than us just ignoring them. It’s the same reason we don’t celebrate Passover, or worship at the temple mount, or sacrifice goats and sheep. We have what all those things pointed to.

Thanks for the response. I’ve never heard that before. You think that’s the ONLY reason?

Absolutely.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=W24&q=jesus+true+israel+site%3Akimriddlebarger.squarespace.com&btnG=Search

Thanks for the link. So God’s comments in the Old Testament are more or less null and void because of Jesus? I’m not trying to sound like a d-bag or anything, I’m just trying to get at the heart of this.
[/quote]

This is honestly a pretty complicated theological issue. The best succinct explanation I have right now is given in the WEstminster Confession:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XIX.html

26

Ok. That explains a lot. Honestly, I can’t defend Roman Catholic theology. Pat’s on his own there.

27

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Uh, yeah. That has to do with Jesus fulfilling everything written in the “Law and Prophets” (Matthew 5:17) rather than us just ignoring them. It’s the same reason we don’t celebrate Passover, or worship at the temple mount, or sacrifice goats and sheep. We have what all those things pointed to.

Thanks for the response. I’ve never heard that before. You think that’s the ONLY reason?

Absolutely.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=W24&q=jesus+true+israel+site%3Akimriddlebarger.squarespace.com&btnG=Search

Thanks for the link. So God’s comments in the Old Testament are more or less null and void because of Jesus? I’m not trying to sound like a d-bag or anything, I’m just trying to get at the heart of this.

This is honestly a pretty complicated theological issue. The best succinct explanation I have right now is given in the WEstminster Confession:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XIX.html
[/quote]

Thanks, that link demands a few readings. Are there many differences in how different sects of Christianity approach this issue?

28

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for 12 years and the above explanation was more or less given to me by various teachers.

Ok. That explains a lot. Honestly, I can’t defend Roman Catholic theology. Pat’s on his own there. [/quote]

As a former Catholic, I don’t think you should either. Are you coming from a Protestant standpoint?

29

[quote]Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Uh, yeah. That has to do with Jesus fulfilling everything written in the “Law and Prophets” (Matthew 5:17) rather than us just ignoring them. It’s the same reason we don’t celebrate Passover, or worship at the temple mount, or sacrifice goats and sheep. We have what all those things pointed to.

Thanks for the response. I’ve never heard that before. You think that’s the ONLY reason?

Absolutely.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=W24&q=jesus+true+israel+site%3Akimriddlebarger.squarespace.com&btnG=Search

Thanks for the link. So God’s comments in the Old Testament are more or less null and void because of Jesus? I’m not trying to sound like a d-bag or anything, I’m just trying to get at the heart of this.

This is honestly a pretty complicated theological issue. The best succinct explanation I have right now is given in the WEstminster Confession:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XIX.html

Thanks, that link demands a few readings. Are there many differences in how different sects of Christianity approach this issue? [/quote]

That’s the Reformed/Presbyterian/Lutheran view. Then there’s the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views, which I can’t defend and wouldn’t try to.

30

[quote]Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for 12 years and the above explanation was more or less given to me by various teachers.

Ok. That explains a lot. Honestly, I can’t defend Roman Catholic theology. Pat’s on his own there.

As a former Catholic, I don’t think you should either. Are you coming from a Protestant standpoint?[/quote]

Yeah.

31

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
No, this is what happens when shari’ah wins. They’re just doing what Mohammed did when he was alive. [/quote]

So in essence, this is what is chosen for the many by the few tyrannical people? So then it has no legitimacy.

I find it hard to believe people would freely choose to be subjugated if they had alternative means to bring about their alternatively preferred ends.

Shari’ah is not so much a religion as it is a tool to lord over people of that religion. It favors tyranny as a means of control in the guise of subservience to God. Christianity had an analog to shari’ah law called feudalism.

So many of the Muslims I know do not fit the stereotype of what is portrayed by hard-corp Christians. Incidentally, I happen to live in an area of the country with a very large population of Somali Muslims so I have more than a anecdotal knowledge of actual Islamic practices.

32

Organized religion is the perfect tool to control people who secretly prefer to be controlled.

33

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

So in essence, this is what is chosen for the many by the few tyrannical people? So then it has no legitimacy.
[/quote]

Mohammed is the Sunnah. What he did was normative according to Surah 33.21 and the consensus (ijma) of Islamic scholars. Individual Muslims may choose not to live as Mohammed did, preferring natural law to shari’ah law, but they live with the contradiction of being Muslim and not living as Mohammed did.

I’m not quite sure why. If you’re religion tells you it’s good to be a slave to Allah and his Caliph on earth, why wouldn’t such people prefer such a thing. We gave the ARabs in Iraq a choice, and they chose to enshrine shari’ah in their constitution.

Well, now you’re on the hook to explain that one.

[quote]
So many of the Muslims I know do not fit the stereotype of what is portrayed by hard-corp Christians. Incidentally, I happen to live in an area of the country with a very large population of Somali Muslims so I have more than a anecdotal knowledge of actual Islamic practices.[/quote]

They live with the contradiction.

34

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I bet the girl put a spell on these men. Or I bet that is what these men told their tribal elders and wives.

Also, it is usually the women of these societies who initiate violence against rape victims because they lose power and influence in their family when a man takes another “wife”.

My wife and I are friends with a Somali Muslim woman who has told us of these stories before. She is a very progressive Muslim who left her husband (and children) to come to the states to finish her education. Her family has lots of money so she never had to put up with what poorer Somalis have to.

This is what happens when civil society collapses. In other words, the normal state of the world. [/quote]

Actually, that sort of shit only happens in civilized societies.

35

[quote]orion wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I bet the girl put a spell on these men. Or I bet that is what these men told their tribal elders and wives.

Also, it is usually the women of these societies who initiate violence against rape victims because they lose power and influence in their family when a man takes another “wife”.

My wife and I are friends with a Somali Muslim woman who has told us of these stories before. She is a very progressive Muslim who left her husband (and children) to come to the states to finish her education. Her family has lots of money so she never had to put up with what poorer Somalis have to.

This is what happens when civil society collapses. In other words, the normal state of the world.

Actually, that sort of shit only happens in civilized societies.

[/quote]

I think we’re about to get a lot more civilized in the US.

36

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I wish there was a solution.

The solution, if it ever happens will come from within their society by people who make a conscious decision to act. The first requirement is having the freedom to make choices for themselves and the second is having a correct theory to act in accordance with.

In the meantime, carrying on peaceable trade and setting an example will help to spark the initiative. We must do this as individuals without coming across as righteous and moral do-gooders intent upon changing their way of life. Again, it comes down to inspiring people to want to change for themselves not because it is seen as an imperative brought by external pressure.

Historically, this is the tradition that has been used by the US to affect change in a positive manner. We cannot do it by sending bombs and soldiers.[/quote]

Good post. Sums it up.

37

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Brayton wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Uh, yeah. That has to do with Jesus fulfilling everything written in the “Law and Prophets” (Matthew 5:17) rather than us just ignoring them. It’s the same reason we don’t celebrate Passover, or worship at the temple mount, or sacrifice goats and sheep. We have what all those things pointed to.

Thanks for the response. I’ve never heard that before. You think that’s the ONLY reason?

Absolutely.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=W24&q=jesus+true+israel+site%3Akimriddlebarger.squarespace.com&btnG=Search

Thanks for the link. So God’s comments in the Old Testament are more or less null and void because of Jesus? I’m not trying to sound like a d-bag or anything, I’m just trying to get at the heart of this.

This is honestly a pretty complicated theological issue. The best succinct explanation I have right now is given in the WEstminster Confession:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XIX.html

Thanks, that link demands a few readings. Are there many differences in how different sects of Christianity approach this issue?

That’s the Reformed/Presbyterian/Lutheran view. Then there’s the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views, which I can’t defend and wouldn’t try to. [/quote]

There’s also the issue of what is to be read literally and what is to be read allegorically. I know it is very tough to square the vengeful God of the Old Testament with the God who gave his only son to die on the cross for our sins, but we have to do it somehow.

38

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
orion wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I bet the girl put a spell on these men. Or I bet that is what these men told their tribal elders and wives.

Also, it is usually the women of these societies who initiate violence against rape victims because they lose power and influence in their family when a man takes another “wife”.

My wife and I are friends with a Somali Muslim woman who has told us of these stories before. She is a very progressive Muslim who left her husband (and children) to come to the states to finish her education. Her family has lots of money so she never had to put up with what poorer Somalis have to.

This is what happens when civil society collapses. In other words, the normal state of the world.

Actually, that sort of shit only happens in civilized societies.

I think we’re about to get a lot more civilized in the US.
[/quote]

You have millions in cages because they dare to smoke or sell the wrong plant.

Just how much more civilized are you?

I´d say you are a tad more domesticated, but that is not the same as civilized because satiety and complacency does not equal ethical behavior.

Though not stoning women is kind of a good thing.

39

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
pat wrote:
Brayton wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

No, this is what happens when shari’ah wins. They’re just doing what Mohammed did when he was alive.

Too many people are willing to ignore this.

I have no problem with individual Muslims but there is enough of this stuff in Islam to cause trouble. I wish there was a solution.

So true. And unlike modern Christians they haven’t learned to ignore a lot of their canon. The answer probably lies there.

Why do most Christians ignore the advice of their own God (Deuteronomy 12, 23) who commands stoning “your wife, son, daughter, brother…” for advocating another religiong?

There is a reason why a number of passages like that one are not heeded by Christians these days - we should be looking into that and trying to get some of that over in the Middle East.

Deuteronomy is a book of the Pentateuch, not a part of canon law. This would make it more applicable to Judaism than Christianity. Still I think you analysis is incorrect, but I do not have the time to really dig in to your thought process and attempt to dispel your agenda. The Old Testament is a series of extremes existing in dichotomy in order to drive home a point. To really get it, I believe you really need to understand it’s audience. Sometimes they needed their ass whipped in to shape, sometimes they needed mercy, sometimes they needed the shit scared out of them. They had to stay unified to stay strong enough to exist as a nation, otherwise they would have been slaughtered. These texts accomplished that for the unwashed masses.

I think my explanation worked a lot better. Are you Roman CAtholic?
[/quote]

Yup…Sticks out like a sore dick I am guessing.

40

[quote]orion wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
orion wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I bet the girl put a spell on these men. Or I bet that is what these men told their tribal elders and wives.

Also, it is usually the women of these societies who initiate violence against rape victims because they lose power and influence in their family when a man takes another “wife”.

My wife and I are friends with a Somali Muslim woman who has told us of these stories before. She is a very progressive Muslim who left her husband (and children) to come to the states to finish her education. Her family has lots of money so she never had to put up with what poorer Somalis have to.

This is what happens when civil society collapses. In other words, the normal state of the world.

Actually, that sort of shit only happens in civilized societies.

I think we’re about to get a lot more civilized in the US.

You have millions in cages because they dare to smoke or sell the wrong plant.

Just how much more civilized are you?

I´d say you are a tad more domesticated, but that is not the same as civilized because satiety and complacency does not equal ethical behavior.

Though not stoning women is kind of a good thing.

[/quote]

I was being sarcastic.