This post Is not realy related to me at this time…but I thank you for taking the time to post it…im sure It will help many…Its posts like this that help guys like me…so thanks again
this isnt my first cycle, i wanted to run eq,enanthate and proviron. looking for suggestions on how to run. not looking to blow up or put on to much mass but good muscle to cut up later. plus any supplements to add?
There seems to be a growing misconception that the muscle gained from “big bulking cycles” is somehow different from quality muscle gain…
Muscle is muscle. Pure and simple.
If you want to put on muscle which you intend to unveil later with a diet… then what is wrong with a big bulk cycle? Is it the water? Why wouldny you want water? better nutrient supply, increased strength, reduced loading on joints… and it makes your moon face bigger so more food fits in. Well maybe not the last one… but you get the idea.
The fact is, dbol, drol, testosterones, deca etc etc all make for a larger gain in muscle so when you do eventually cut - there is more to show.
If you do a more quality cycle, sure you will look better DURING the cycle as there will be less water, and less fat due to less aromatizing substances in most cases… but there is likely to be a lesser gain in total muscle from beginning to end. (Think Eq to deca, Var to dbol, Mast to Test)
Also… i see that eq is being used a whole lot these days… after my 12 week, 600mg run with the stuff (drol+winny/test+eq) and seeing what the gains were like… i shall only be finishing off the (shit)load i have left and not bothering with it much from then… It isnt much of a muscle builder in me at all… and Deca is a much more effective drug… both for quality and size IME.
2pence for ya son!
JJ
[quote]
the reason is threefold.
- if you have been training less than 5 years you still have a lot of very easily attainable natural gains so why not max that out before going to gear?[/quote]
But if you do start gearing up before this point, you will achive those natty gains in a matter of a year or so… then move on past - so the end result is the same IME.[quote] - if you have been training less than 5 years you likely don’t know your body that well and likely won’t really be making the most of your gear…you are best to figure out what works best for you naturally and then add gear as the final piece of the puzzle.[/quote]
Absolutely… There is no sense in using PED’s when you are not advanced enough an athlete to maximise your diet and training anyway. They are a “next step” tool IMO, not necessary equipment for a beginner of any level.[quote] - there is anecdotal evidence that you do shortchange yourself by gearing up too early in your development. this issue is far from conclusive because different individuals may respond differently. [/quote]
I found this to be the case… after first cycling (with mild drugs - dbol) from the age of 19, i believe i have interfered with my own endogenous hormone production… It wasnt just one cycle but a mix of prescribed and non-prescribed drug abuse over the years… just cycling from an early age didnt help!
Impatience is not a virtue kids.
JJ
I’ve tried to locate where this has already been addressed, to no avail…
In the cycle that Furious George recommends, Test Enth is injected every 3rd day. A few questions about these injections:
- How often should the injection sight be altered?
- How much time between injection and training is advisable… is there too long of a window or too short??
- Is there a period after the injection during which it is not advised to train the muscles at the injection sight?
First cycle
5’10" 190 lbs roughly 10 % BF
6 PL competitions under my belt
Training balls to the walls 4 years
Deadlift 505
Bench 345
Both at 171 Lbs.
Wk 1-10 250 mg Sustanon250 E3D
Wk 1-10 400 mg Deca/Wk
Wk 1-4 10mg D-Bol 3x/day
Wk 11-15 100mg Sustanon250/Wk
Wk 16-20 Either Taper or PCT w/Nolva
Question - How often should I inject deca/wk? I feel that E3D is too freq. Would I be better off shooting 400mg once a week or 200mg on a mon/thurs type split? Also, should I cut the Deca earlier than Wk10?
All comments appreciated!
You’re either not taking enough Sust / or you are taking too much deca. You want to take about 2x as much test as Deca. If you want to keep the deca at 400mg, then shoot it twice a week @ 200mg ea.
No, you do not want to cut the deca short of 10wks. you should run deca for atleast 10-12 wks b/c it takes that long to kick in.
Good Luck!
I am thinking of beginnig my first hgh cycle, but im getting mixed info on dosage and duration. Some say 4iu/day ,1 day on 1day off.
Others say 4iu/day 5days on 2 days off.
Some sources says its a waste of time to go on a cycle for less than 6 months, others swear by 2 month bursts. Any help?
hard to say. i think with high enough doses you will see results pretty fast but it is generally a failry long term commitment.
some experienced users who have extensively trialled ED injections vs EOD or injections just on training days have found the EOD approach works just as well if not better (assuming you are increasing the dose due to reduced injection days).
best times to use HGH is early AM, pre-workout, and post workout.
in terms of dose I think a generally accepted guideline goes like this:
1-2iu/d - improvement in vision, skin elasticity, energy levels, recovery from injury or training
2-4iu/d - above plus fatloss
4-10iu/d - above plus mass gain
10-20iu/d - pro bodybuilding dose for drastic body recomposition
Furious,
In one of your sample cycles, you listed a 6 week oral cycle using anadrol and winstrol followed by 3 weeks pct nolva. Since drol doesn’t convert directly to estrogen, any need to run adex during the cycle. Also, is there any need to run hcg either during or after this cycle? Thanks.
[quote]Mike823 wrote:
Furious,
In one of your sample cycles, you listed a 6 week oral cycle using anadrol and winstrol followed by 3 weeks pct nolva. Since drol doesn’t convert directly to estrogen, any need to run adex during the cycle. Also, is there any need to run hcg either during or after this cycle? Thanks.[/quote]
Not furious, obviously, but Llewelyn writes in Anabolics (2006, p.100, in case you have a copy)that anadrol bumps estrogen levels by perhaps “intrinsically activating the estrogen receptor itself” rather than thru’ aromatization, thus he concludes that adex (and cytadren) would both be useless. He also recommends hcg and / or clomid/nolva.
Never done it myself so I’m sure that others can chime in with more advice.
[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
Mike823 wrote:
Furious,
In one of your sample cycles, you listed a 6 week oral cycle using anadrol and winstrol followed by 3 weeks pct nolva. Since drol doesn’t convert directly to estrogen, any need to run adex during the cycle. Also, is there any need to run hcg either during or after this cycle? Thanks.
Not furious, obviously, but Llewelyn writes in Anabolics (2006, p.100, in case you have a copy)that anadrol bumps estrogen levels by perhaps “intrinsically activating the estrogen receptor itself” rather than thru’ aromatization, thus he concludes that adex (and cytadren) would both be useless. He also recommends hcg and / or clomid/nolva.
Never done it myself so I’m sure that others can chime in with more advice.
[/quote]
Nolva during the cycle or afterwards?
Furious,
I would like your opinion. Previously used 10 years ago, started at 135 pds, got to 185 with 15% BF, now 35 yrs old, 170 pds, 5'10", 8% BF. Training naturally for 10 years.
Would like to do a short 2-3 week cycle. Looking for lean, slow gains, for long term retention,
Only have Sust, Deca, Dbol, Nolva, Proviron, HCG, Avodart.
Concerns : Hair loss.
Your thoughts on mini blitz/2-3 weeker.
Thanks
If you are concerned about hairloss then the proviron would be off limits. It’s a DHT so your avodart will be useless (avodart stops conversion to DHT, it won’t do anything to stop exogenous DHT being pumped in). Your avodart will work fine with test (sust) and nandrolone (deca) because it will block the conversion.
I would skip the dbol if you are trying to fly under the radar because it puts on a lot of water weight fast…unless you were using a really low dose and nothing else (ex. using 10-20mg pre-workout only)
If you are looking at short cycles then your compounds are not very good. Sust and Deca both are/contain long estered drugs…for short cycles you need short acting compounds like test prop, NPP, masteron prop, tren ace…these drugs will hit within a few days and be out of your system just as fast so 2-3 week cycles will work. If you have long esters they won’t even have kicked in and you will have to come off, they will then hang around and continue suppressing you long after so you won’t recover quick which is the whole point of a short cycle (avoid full shutdown and recover fast enough that you don’t lose any of the gains).
If that is all you have access to the best option would be a longer cycle.
Furious
Thanks for the response. Could Dbol be used at 5-10 mg on its own for a short blitz?
With a dbol only blitz, would there be any suppression?
And is avodart EOD effective with dbol to inhibit DHT conversion?
Also, what longer cycle length would you recommend, say 4-6 weeks?
Thanks for your advice
[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
If you are concerned about hairloss then the proviron would be off limits. It’s a DHT so your avodart will be useless (avodart stops conversion to DHT, it won’t do anything to stop exogenous DHT being pumped in). Your avodart will work fine with test (sust) and nandrolone (deca) because it will block the conversion.[/quote]
Correct in part Georgie.
The using avodart to reduce (pun intended) the DHT conversion from test - then that is fine and dandy… however Deca doesnt turn to DHT, it turns to Dihydronandrolone(DHN) which is much less aggressive on the scalp/prostate etc… and is the reason Deca is preferred as a less androgenic anabolic.
IF one did use avodart with deca, it would stop the conversion of the nandrolone to DHN, which is a much weaker androgen than (any other i believe) DHT, and would result in increased scalp/prostate issues…
As for running test and deca and hair issues - avoid the test and use deca with no avodart, or run the test and avo with no deca. Or accept fate and embrace the fact of life and live with your hairloss for maximum muscularity.
Proviron isnt supposed to be particualrly harsh on the hairline IIRC… even though it is the hormone it is. May be mistaken on that last bit however.
Brook
Hello. I’m a n00b 
This will be my first cycle. I’ve been researching for months, and i wanted to do a short cycle for steady gains. Partly for financial reasons.
I’m 27, 84kg (185lbs) 6ft1. Bodyfat 13%
This will be my first cycle. I have a lot of issues, i have big time hairloss which i’ve successfully been fighting with Dutateride and minox and a bunch of stuff.
Unfotunately, its given my many sides. Virtually shut down my libido :(, and my muscles have been turning to mush due to the excess estrogen floating around 
I’m a combat athlete and need to get this shit back on track, so i was thinking experimenting with roids.
I’ve done as much research as poss and are vary of the sides that could accentuate my problems. So i’ve come up with somethign that hopefully shouldn’t make my hormonal environment worse.
I’ve started Cabergoline 1mg/week, and clomid 50mg/day. This has helped already, especially re: libido and muscle gain. So i was thinking a short 5 week cycle
W1-5 Test Enanthate 250mg/week
W1-5 Equipoise 300mg/week
W6-8 Clomid 50mg/day
W6-8 HCG 1500iu/week
I wil be taking Dutasteride and Cabergoline as well at the same time. I’m not looking for any dramatic gain, but as long as i can get around 5lbs for the month, which is VERY difficult having been on Dutas for 2 years, i’m all good.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!!
You will need to frontload those products or they will be verging on useless.
Dont get me wrong, you can gain from enanthate in 5 weeks no frontload, but nowhere near as much as is possible if you allow peak blood levels to occur - this is the goal for ALL drugs taken TBH. Peak levels in this case would be achieved by either staying on long enough for the ester to peak, and have time to have its optimum effect on the body or by frontloading (taking a larger dose - usually around 2x the desired dose - for the first injection) to achieve the peak levels immediately.
The same goes for the Eq.
Why have you chosen these products?
IMO you would be better off leaving the Eq out and bumping the Test to 350mg-400mg/wk.
IME eq is hardly noticeable next to test as it is a mild anabolic - it is NOTHING like the often compared Deca. Many have desireable effects with eq but IME it is usually one of quality and results that are mostly visible with very low bodyfat.
What i wrote about nandrolone - which when used alongside 5a-reductase inhibitors is prevented from converting to DHN (a weak androgen) allowing stronger androgens to attach to scalp receptors… i believe that the same goes for Equipoise - namely Boldenone - DHB.
Boldenone is a milder androgen than testosterone, because it converts to DHB and not DHT.
If it is the same issue with 5a reductase inhibitors, you would be better off dropping the Boldenone anyway.
Seeing as you are taking caber, you could use deca with the test, but apart from the scalp and androgen issues with 5a inhibitors, you arent really after the gains to need or warrant a stack of any sort really… and a deca/test stack is a little over kill for 5lbs.
As for your goals - i personally think it is a screamingly bad idea to now dose up with AAS as the dutasteride is fucking up your hormones.
You NEED DHT to feel like and be a man, simple as. This is the reason you are losing muscle, strength, drive and libido.
But at least you have your hair.
I will never understand why a man would choose impotence and muscle loss over hair loss! Never, never ever.
My advice? Leave the dutasteride alone, accept fate, train naturally and eat well… use the caber or whatever you need till your levels normalise - then youll have SOME muscle back and wood back.
Think about it… you are using a drug to prevent a certain hormone from being converted in your body…(DHT) now after the side effects from the lack of the hormone in question have shown up, you are planning on injecting MORE of the primary hormone(T) that converts to the unwanted hormone - which will continue to be blocked by the drug - in an attempt to cover the side effects you have created by the use of the drug in the first place. Side effects that could be easily stopped by ceasing use of the dutasteride.
You should re-assess your position and goals… do you really want to start injecting anabolic-androgenic steer-oids for 5lbs of muscle? 5lbs???
I will stop typing now before i start to flame.
Typical dose of hCG is 250iu EOD. That is 875iu/w. 1500iu/w is high.
[quote] Brook wrote:
You will need to frontload those products or they will be verging on useless.
Dont get me wrong, you can gain from enanthate in 5 weeks no frontload, but nowhere near as much as is possible if you allow peak blood levels to occur - this is the goal for ALL drugs taken TBH. Peak levels in this case would be achieved by either staying on long enough for the ester to peak, and have time to have its optimum effect on the body or by frontloading (taking a larger dose - usually around 2x the desired dose - for the first injection) to achieve the peak levels immediately.
The same goes for the Eq.
Why have you chosen these products?
IMO you would be better off leaving the Eq out and bumping the Test to 350mg-400mg/wk.
IME eq is hardly noticeable next to test as it is a mild anabolic - it is NOTHING like the often compared Deca. Many have desireable effects with eq but IME it is usually one of quality and results that are mostly visible with very low bodyfat.
What i wrote about nandrolone - which when used alongside 5a-reductase inhibitors is prevented from converting to DHN (a weak androgen) allowing stronger androgens to attach to scalp receptors… i believe that the same goes for Equipoise - namely Boldenone - DHB.
Boldenone is a milder androgen than testosterone, because it converts to DHB and not DHT.
If it is the same issue with 5a reductase inhibitors, you would be better off dropping the Boldenone anyway.
Seeing as you are taking caber, you could use deca with the test, but apart from the scalp and androgen issues with 5a inhibitors, you arent really after the gains to need or warrant a stack of any sort really… and a deca/test stack is a little over kill for 5lbs.
As for your goals - i personally think it is a screamingly bad idea to now dose up with AAS as the dutasteride is fucking up your hormones.
You NEED DHT to feel like and be a man, simple as. This is the reason you are losing muscle, strength, drive and libido.
But at least you have your hair.
I will never understand why a man would choose impotence and muscle loss over hair loss! Never, never ever.
My advice? Leave the dutasteride alone, accept fate, train naturally and eat well… use the caber or whatever you need till your levels normalise - then youll have SOME muscle back and wood back.
Think about it… you are using a drug to prevent a certain hormone from being converted in your body…(DHT) now after the side effects from the lack of the hormone in question have shown up, you are planning on injecting MORE of the primary hormone(T) that converts to the unwanted hormone - which will continue to be blocked by the drug - in an attempt to cover the side effects you have created by the use of the drug in the first place. Side effects that could be easily stopped by ceasing use of the dutasteride.
You should re-assess your position and goals… do you really want to start injecting anabolic-androgenic steer-oids for 5lbs of muscle? 5lbs???
I will stop typing now before i start to flame.
[/quote]
Haha.
Oh man, you are SO right. I wont even argue with that.
I was told the exact same thing by my girlfriend who doesn’t care about my bald head and just wants me to fuck her like i used to.
But what can i say? Vanity???
Fucking measly 5lbs, i just wanna be able to fight in my weight class, i’m looking for maintenance of where i was - since i been on this shit, its been next to impossible.
Anyway, i wont be convinced… sorry, this dutas has given me all my hair back… at a price.
I chose EQ because i read that it has few androgenic side effects but is twice as anabolic as Deca. Also, i read that its more permanent gains, from user experience, which is important cos the Dutas is turning my muscle to mush
I figured i could take low amount of test, so as not to accentuate the DHT in my body too much, and compliment that with Eq, which is anabolic but less androgenic. Plus it converts to DHB and not DHT
The caber would take care of the libido, the clomid will take care of the excess estrogen and the HCG will get my balls back on line.
This way i can continue with the Dutas until better hairloss drug comes along.
Heh, my girlfriend says: “So you’ve fucked up your body with drugs, and your answer to that is more drugs?” Yep!
Feel free to flame me, i can take it. 