[quote]wannagetbig2001 wrote:
GREAT forum - thanks!!! this will help alot![/quote]
Yes There is a lot of great info here. I guess a lot of noobs run right by the newby sticky
and post a thread of their own. But not you…congrats man.
wats does EOD and E3D mean??
[quote]dude123091 wrote:
wats does EOD and E3D mean??[/quote]
every other day
every third day
I keep reading people recommending 14-16+ weeks cycles when using EQ, since it takes very long to see results. I was thinking about the following, but should other compounds be added to keep the gains coming? How do people run 16 weeks of the same compounds and continue to see gains?
1-4 Superdrol
1-16 Test E
1-15 EQ
12-16 Superdrol (or Winny)
1-8, 11-16 HCG (E4D)
Say at week 10 my gains diminish to nothing, should I start the oral and end the cycle earlier?
[quote]ajensen11 wrote:
I keep reading people recommending 14-16+ weeks cycles when using EQ, since it takes very long to see results. I was thinking about the following, but should other compounds be added to keep the gains coming? How do people run 16 weeks of the same compounds and continue to see gains?
1-4 Superdrol
1-16 Test E
1-15 EQ
12-16 Superdrol (or Winny)
1-8, 11-16 HCG (E4D)
Say at week 10 my gains diminish to nothing, should I start the oral and end the cycle earlier?[/quote]
What you have heard is true to an extent - ie. as Eq has a long elimination half life, it takes a long time to attain peak levels - a good 7 weeks actually, although you are in the ball park within 5 weeks like with cyp - and of course results will be seen before this. The theory is there, but in practce it is different.
Not only this but if you use a large (3x daily dose) dose the first shot, the levels will be high from the start - essentially avoiding the wait for the levels to build. This is a frontload. With a frontload cycles can be as short as 4-6 weeks and i often do 4 weekers these days.
So with that in mind you could do the following:
Wk1-8 Test E
Wk1-8 Bold U
If you are injecting say… 200mg 2x/wk of something, then the frontload will be <600mg. IF you are injecting 350mg 3x/wk, then the frontload will be nearer <1050mg. As i siad it is approximately 3x the per shot dose (not the weekly total).
im 18 6 ft 9% body fat 168 pounds
im going to get a 6 week cycle of d dol and read that it should be stacked with a test bt this is my first cycle and wanted to se how i reacted to just one type.
have clomid to pct and milk thissle
is it worth gting test first cyicle
[quote]stevencolbert wrote:
is it worth gting test first cyicle
[/quote]
yes
[quote] Brook wrote:
If you are injecting say… 200mg 2x/wk of something, then the frontload will be <600mg. IF you are injecting 350mg 3x/wk, then the frontload will be nearer <1050mg. As i siad it is approximately 3x the per shot dose (not the weekly total).[/quote]
What do you mean by frontload? How long does it last?
What do you mean - how long dies it last? That is not the question you should be asking i think…
It is in order to bring the total AAS level to its max level immediately rather than waiting for the weeks to accumulate.
It ‘lasts’ the whole cycle.
Use roidcalc.com to see how this looks in a more numerical format.
[quote]Alexisonfire2230 wrote:
Brook wrote:
If you are injecting say… 200mg 2x/wk of something, then the frontload will be <600mg. IF you are injecting 350mg 3x/wk, then the frontload will be nearer <1050mg. As i siad it is approximately 3x the per shot dose (not the weekly total).
What do you mean by frontload? How long does it last?
[/quote]
It is a method to get blood level up almost immediately as opposed to it taking several weeks depending on the ester in question. It applies to the first injection only and subsequent injections go on as planned.
Example: test enan 500mg/w with EOD injections of 143mg
Day1 injection: 500mg
Then Day3: 143mg, Day5: 143mg, continue EOD to end of cycle.
Great post FG. I’m 35 with around 18yrs training (lifting) behind me. About to start my 3rd cycle. Trying to be a sponge and learn everything I can. Very helpful info. Thanks for taking the time.
[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
PART IV - MEDIUM LENGTH CYCLES (6-8 Weeks)
WHO
Medium length cycles seem to be favoured for 2 reasons.
-
Cutting/lean mass cycles
Used in a cutting cycle the user can attain very good dieting results with the aid of the gear over just 6-8 weeks of hard work. -
Blast cycles
Used either on their own or as part of a contiuous cycle
blast cycles use very high doses for a short period to minimize the negative effects of the high dose.
Because of the short duration the compounds used for both are often short acting injectables and orals.
PROS
-
Optimal Muscle Gain
The 6-8 week period is optimal for muscle gain with shorter esters/orals (remember they kick in after 3-4 days rather than 3-4 weeks so gains start almost immediately)because this time period is generally the area where gains begin to diminish and shutdown becomes more severe so at this point it is benificial for the user to clear the drugs out of the system and return to normal so that another cycle can be run and more gains can be realized. With time on equal to time off the user can fit in about 3 cycles a year. -
Limiting Duration
Limiting time of the cycle cuts down on the negative sides (BP, gyno, liver tox, etc which become greater risks with extended timelines). The suppression is of course not as bad as a 10-12 week cycle but unless you are using very mild compounds shutdown is still going to occur. In reality this may just mean a little shorter PCT or a little smoother recovery because LH and FSH levels will bounce back a little quicker. -
HCG during the cycle
The use of HCG during the cycle to maintain baseline testicular function now becomes a very useful tool. Because the use is restricted to only 6-8 weeks LH and FSH should return fairly quickly and as long as HCG doses are kept to physiological levels (say 250iu E3D) then desensitizing of the lydig cells should be minimal. PCT in this case would just consist of a few weeks of Clomid or Nolva starting 3-5 days after the last injection.
CONS
-
Limited compound selection
The drawback is you need to get in all the gains you can in only 6-8 weeks. For this reason longer (enth, cyp, deca, undeca) esters don’t make a lot of sense since they are really only kicking in around week 3 or later so this restricts us to (mostly) just short esters. -
Shutdown
Unless HCG is used during the cycle shutdown is (still) all but guaranteed unless using very mild compounds at low doses. This means that PCT is still necessary.
PRIMARY COMPOUND
Test Prop is usually the main compound for 6-8 week cycles for the below reasons:
- It works well
- The anabolic/androgenic ratio is balanced
- Libido is enhanced
- The user feels great
- It can be used for cutting or blasting
- It is fast acting
The only real drawbacks with Prop are of course the usual Test side effects and the pain (literally) of injections. Test Prop tends to be a more painful injection because of the high BA content and it needs to be shot ED or at least EOD so this is an issue with some users.
Typical prop doses are in the range of 50-300mg/d (with users simply looking for a little help to retain muscle mass while dieting at the low end and experienced bodybuilders at the high end).
The deviations from this strategy would be:
-
if HCG is being used throughout
With this strategy it becomes realistic to use other compounds as the primary because the user’s natural baseline test levels will be maintained by the HCG. This means a stack like Tren and Winny could be used. -
This is part of a continuous cycle where the user is already running Test Enth or Cyp as the main compound so they would just up the dose for the blast period and add in any secondary compounds.
-
If only mildly suppressive compounds are being used (DBol, Anavar (Var), and Primo are the best options) where endogenous test levels won’t bottom out that hard during the cycle.
- DBol only cycles would be around 20-100mg/d (even up to 100mg/d it only decreases endogenous test to about 40% of normal and doesn’t have a huge impact on LH or FSH) so this actually becomes realistic for a 6 week cycle…a great deal of the gains will be water weight though.
-Var only cycles would be around 40-100mg/d…even less suppressive than DBol (the gains wouldn’t be nearly as impressive as DBol but much drier/more permenant), it also has reported fat burning properties so it would be another good inclusion to simply maintain muscle mass on a strict diet. Perhaps good as well for an athlete looking to add a bit of strength while maintaining a weight class.
- Primo only cycles would be around 350-600mg/w (split into E3D injections)…it’s use during a strict diet would help keep muscle mass and have some other positive effects on health/immune system but would likely cause suppression at the high end dose when it is really starting to provide benifits in terms of strength and lean mass. It would also have to be used for a minimum of 8 weeks and even that is likely a little too short.
SECONDARY COMPOUNDS
Pretty much any oral steroid or short acting injectable out there will work. The most common secondary compounds used in stacks are DBol, Drol, Var, Winny, Nandrolone (NPP only), Tren (Ace only), Mast (prop only), and rarely Primo.
CUTTING or LEAN MASS - adding strength/burning fat
Tren, Mast, Primo, and Winny have already been discussed and have the same use in a 6-8 week cycle so I will focus on Var and NPP.
- Var is a 17 alpha alkalated oral that adds a strength without much water retention or size. There are minimal sides - no estrogen issues, no hairloss, and even minimal suppression of endogenous test. This means no ancilliary compounds needed and possibly not even PCT. It also seems to have added benifits of aiding in healing and fatloss. Though the gains from Var are very small they are very easily maintained as is the fat loss.
It’s actions are mostly non-AR mediated (anabolic) even though it does bind fairly strongly to the AR. Var is of course hepatoxic because of the 17aa but much less so than DBol, Drol, or Winny even at higher doses. It’s use should be limited in length but 6-8 weeks should have minimal impact.
A Var only cycle as discuss above would be in the range of 40-100mg/d. This would produce a mildly suppressive cycle. If stacking it with other compounds (where suppression is already a done deal) it could be used in slightly higher doses (60-150mg/d). It would need to be used in the higher range to “feel” it if used with stronger compounds like test prop.
I personally think the best use for is in a mild cycle where suppression is avoided and gains can be easily kept. This will not produce huge results but will keep steady gains coming.
- NPP is the short estered cousin of Deca and has many of the same actions (so I won’t go into too much detail) but seems to be a bit weaker in all aspects (less mass, less strength, less water, less supression). It is fairly mild in terms of sides and doesn’t hold nearly as much water so it’s use in a cutting cycle is possible and it seems the gains are more easily maintained (but this may just be due to the reduced water retention). It’s generally used as a secondary to Test to add a bit of anabolic properties and aid the joints a bit.
Typical NPP dose would be equal to or less than that of the test dose being run with the average in the range of 50-200mg EOD.
BLASTING - strength and size
DBol and Drol have already been discussed and their use in a 6-8 week cycle is pretty much the same as a kickstart that just lasts a few weeks longer. Otherwise the same drugs as above in the cutting section would be used but the diet and training would be altered to match the goals so I will leave them.
STACKING
Same guidelines still remain for stacking (AR with non-AR mediated or combo or Test/19Nor/DHT). Due to the shorter length of the cycle the overall dose of the stack can be bumped up a bit but it will largely be based on tolerance of the user.
The big difference would be the fact that orals can be used either alone or stacked through the whole length of the cycle. Stacks of orals become a possibility (such as Drol/Winny) where an oral only cycle can have both a non-AR and AR mediated compound. I still think that injectables are the way to go over orals in a 6-8 week cycle because of hepatoxicity (with the exception of maybe anavar) but out of convenience or because of fear/incompetence with injecting it is an option.
ANCILLIARY COMPOUNDS
Ancilliary compounds used are the same as those used for 10-12 week cycles. The duration obviously isn’t long enough for the fat loss benifits of HGH so this would probably be run through the year rather than just on cycle. The addition of Clenbuterol and or T3/T4 would possibly be used as well in a more advanced user.
PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
So what would a sample 6-8 week cycle look like. Again I am not saying anyone should do this just that it would be a common protocol.
MILD ORAL
W 1-6 DBol 10mg 3x/D or Var 20mg 3x/d
MILD CUTTING CYCLE
W 1-6 Primo 200mg E3D
W 1-6 Winny 25mg/D
W 9-12 Tribulus
ORAL STACK
W 1-6 Drol 50mg2x/d and Winny 25mg 2x/d
PCT
W 7-9 Clomid or Nolva
MODERATE LEAN MASS
W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD
W 1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
W 1-8 Mast Prop 50mg EOD
W 1-9 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 2-8 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid
BLAST
W 1-8 Test Cyp 150mg E3D (as during normal TRT or cruise)
W 1-8 Test Prop 200mg ED
W 1-8 NPP 100mg ED
W 1-8 Adex 0.5mg ED
W 9 resume normal TRT or cruise cycle doses
Again these are just examples but it should give you an idea of how it works.
[/quote]
What would a good Test Prop medium length basic cycle and pct look like?
just take the lean mass cycle and remove the tren and mast…you could bump the test to 150 EOD if you wanted to add a bit more kick
W 1-8 Test Prop 150mg EOD
W 1-10 Adex 0.25mg EOD…taper in final 2 weeks
W 2-7 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid
Awesome Thanks
I just acquired all of my gear and I am waiting on the pins to show up in the mail. Like an idiot, I wasn’t thorough enough in my research before I ordered the pins and read in numerous areas of the forums that aside from injecting with one size (I have 23 G X 1) you draw with another. General consensus was the 20 G. I have plenty 23’s, but does it matter what size you draw with, or should I order the 20’s? I am using a basic Test Cyp/A-dex/Nolva cycle BTW.
Dont matter 
ok i have been doing research on here and with some friends. I am SO confused now on what to do. I ordered my gear 3 weeks ago and got…Test Enth, Equipoise, and winstrol tablets…I put an order in to get clomid and liquiDex…but they must have gotten caught becasue i did not get anything no reply to my emails. so i now have to order from a new place. I am just confused on what to do on my cycle and off. I was told to take Nolvadex while i was on the gear then clomid off. Is this a good way to go or not?
not. read stickies.
Newbie here…(imagine that)! But, I guess you have to start somewhere. I’ve been doing alot of research/what to do and not to do’s, reading your posts and soaking up as much knowledge as possible. Just a little background on myself. I work out daily (I have been doing so for the past 9 years)…my job requires me to, nonetheless. I’m 5’10, 200lbs. 12% body fat. I’ll get straight to the point.
I’m taking FuriousGeorge’s advice here…and the advice of many others and starting with just a Test cycle for my first. Problem is (or maybe not) that it is test c not enth. Me being a fuckin’ new guy is this ok instead of the test enth for my first cycle? If it is ok to use instead…should I make one weekly injection, or say a Mon and Fri injection. Sorry if this question was answered elsewhere or if my question is fuckin’ typical. Appreciate it!
It is virtually identical to Enanthate, so use in the same manner (2-3x/wk injections)