Steroid Newbie Cycle Planning

Pharma
245

OK. After much research, i’ve come up with a cycle, would be cool to get your views.

i’m 27 years old, 6ft2, 190lbs. i train MMA, so my goals are sport specific.

i got the idea for this cycle from an article on T-Nation i read on steroids used by MMA guys. Basically it was an interview with a MMA trainer talking about what sort of juice he puts his boys on.

My goals aren’t massive bulk (maybe just a little, but need to keep within weight class). Rather, to get stronger, harder lean muscles with the intention of increasing anaerobic endurance. This is why i included a stack that increases EPO in the blood as well as Anavar said to help with the ATC energy system hence anaerobic endurance.

8 week cycle:

Wk 1: Test Enth 500mg
Wk 2-8: Test Enth 250mg
Wk 1-8: Winstrol 150mg
Wk 1-8: Anavar 150mg
Wk 1-8: Equip 400mg
Wk 7-8: Halotestin 175mg
Wk 1-8: Letrozole 2.5mg ED

Wk 11-12: Nolva 40mg ED
Wk 13-14: Nolva 20mg ED

Lots of chemicals there, and lots of orals. Too much on the liver? Also, should i be thinking about adding HCG in there also? if so, how much?

Thanks in advance for any opinions suggestions etc.!

246

[quote]WyldFlower wrote:
OK. After much research, i’ve come up with a cycle, would be cool to get your views.

i’m 27 years old, 6ft2, 190lbs. i train MMA, so my goals are sport specific.

i got the idea for this cycle from an article on T-Nation i read on steroids used by MMA guys. Basically it was an interview with a MMA trainer talking about what sort of juice he puts his boys on.

My goals aren’t massive bulk (maybe just a little, but need to keep within weight class). Rather, to get stronger, harder lean muscles with the intention of increasing anaerobic endurance. This is why i included a stack that increases EPO in the blood as well as Anavar said to help with the ATC energy system hence anaerobic endurance.

8 week cycle:

Wk 1: Test Enth 500mg
Wk 2-8: Test Enth 250mg
Wk 1-8: Winstrol 150mg
Wk 1-8: Anavar 150mg
Wk 1-8: Equip 400mg
Wk 7-8: Halotestin 175mg
Wk 1-8: Letrozole 2.5mg ED

Wk 11-12: Nolva 40mg ED
Wk 13-14: Nolva 20mg ED

Lots of chemicals there, and lots of orals. Too much on the liver? Also, should i be thinking about adding HCG in there also? if so, how much?

Thanks in advance for any opinions suggestions etc.!

[/quote]

I dont think there are too many orals - 3 different ones would be frowned on however the dosages are only 20-25mg each (assuming they are weekly dosages noted down), totalling just 475mg/wk - this is less than 100mg/day of drol for example, and var is much lower in toxicity than most.

While the toxicity isnt an issue, i would like to point out that ~20mg of winstrol and ~20mg of Var/day are both too low to give decent results - i think with just the 250mg of test a week you will find that you dont notice much on top of that from these drugs at the doses you suggest.
I would drop the winstrol and run the var at 60mg/day or drop the var and run the winstrol at 75mg/day - personally opting for the var due to winstrol being… shit.

25mg of Halo is a fine dose for aggression and strength mind you, although i would reconsider it’s use for the full 8 weeks - preferring 6 at a max of this toxic drug.

The letrozole is far to high a dose - you will feel terrible running this potent anti-aromatase at the max dose. It has been regularly reported that this dose will leave you run down, susceptable to colds and illness, aching and irritable with no libido - the results of too low an estrogen level - and with only 250mg of aromatisable AAS in your system (eq doesnt count IMO) you will be in the toilet.
I would start the letro at 0.125mg/day and go from there personally. It is a strong drug and it is an unpredictable one - you aren’t going to be swelling up anytime soon with the amount of aromatase in your system on this cycle, so start low and go up as you feel comfortable - adding just 0.0625mg-0.125mg at a time IME is a good margin for the drug. JMO however.

Frontload the Equipoise too… when i use 400mg of the drug a week i inject 200mg 2x/wk and frontload with 600mg the first injection, continuing with 200mg E3.5D thereafter. Due to the long ester, this is an absolute must to use it for just 8 weeks.
With a frontload i have used it for a mere 4 weeks successfully mind you.

HCG - it is a personal preference - i think you would like 250iu 3x/wk added in there for the extra test it will provide - there is something about the test from HCG that gives a good libido and feeling of wellbeing, i suspect while it has a higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme - it may have for the 5AR enzyme too… just a guess.
It will help recovery too - you will be shut down from the cycle, so if you can get it and at a decent price - i would do so.

When you wrote HTC - i assume you mean ATP/PCr energy systems? Var is supposed to be better at this than other AAS - however i suspect that Bill Roberts suggestions that all AAS do this to the same degree - it is just mentioned in the var profle to make each drug seem a little more different than it really is, is correct.
AAS all work by the same method, just differing in their affinities to different receptors, enzymes and interacting hormones.

I would change the cycle slightly:

8 week cycle:

Wk 1: Test Enth 500mg (375mg:125mg)
Wk 1: Equip 800mg (600mg:200mg)
Wk 2-8: Test Enth 250mg (125mg 2x/wk)
Wk 1-8: Anavar 420mg (60mg/d)
Wk 1-8: Equip 400mg (200mg 2x/wk)
Wk 4-8: Halotestin 140mg (20mg/d)
Wk 1-8: Letrozole 0.125+ ED (increase as needed)

Wk 11-12: Nolva 40mg ED
Wk 13-14: Nolva 20mg ED

This should result in upto 5-10lbs of retained muscle if you eat in excess, or if you eat in a slight deficit or maintenance you will find that your body composition will change favourably.

Brook

247

Wooooo! Thanks Brook! You’re the man…

As i said, i put the cycle together from the article i read on T-Nation on the drugs an MMA trainer puts his athlete on - he included winstrol anavar AND halotestin on his plan.

Halotestin, if you notice my post, i was only gonna use for 2 weeks - weeks 7 and 8 as i was finishing off my cycle.

Also yes, i meant ATC, not HTC. Phospho creatine something.

So you saying all AAS will have a similar effect on the ATC/Pc as anavar is touted to have?

Well, anyway, that’ my cycle right there. Cheers bro

x

248

ATP dammit… im dyslexic

249

Sorry, one further question. I already got the Letrozole which comes in 2.5mg pills.

I could cut them in half - 1.25mg. Would it be possible to take this dose something like 1 or 2 times a week and get the same effect? I heard it has a long half-life… is that conceivable?

250

I do not know for definite if Oxandrolone alone has the ATP/PCr benefits or that all AAS do - I personally believe that they all do - but i am not versed on the method by which it is supposed to have this benefit - you have reminded me to look that up, i may be able to get back to you if i find out exactly how it works not just that it does ‘specially’.

As for the letro - i assumed that you had a liquid suspension… it is a bitch having the pills.
You could easily quarter them up giving you 0.625mg which could be dosed EOD/ED - this is a decent dose for many - i like to start very low with it and go from there, with pills it isnt as easy.
Another option is crushing a pill and splitting it into piles of powder - even capping them if you were so inclined. When one pill can give upto 7-10 doses depending on the person and cycle - it can be worth it.

I will look at the oxandrolone and ATP connection - at first glance it is everywhere, but i need to see why it does what is claimed, to be sure.
It looks like it may have this ability to drive ATP into the mitochondria of cells - but this would just drive energy consumption - it sounds better than it is, but i have only read one paragraph… i may start a thread.

Bill Roberts i think knows the answer already - if he notices this thread he may tell you/us the answer :slight_smile:

Brook

251

[quote]funmetal wrote:
Make it even easier

I don’t understand why you would need nolva and proviron when you already run adex?

I’m running a test cycle 500 mg per week and it feels great. Also do 0.25 mg adex eod.

funmetal[/quote]

What’s the most test prop you’ve heard of someone using per day?

252

pahogan, from what i have read around these forums, if Test P used alone, point of diminishing returns comes at around 300mg/ED

I am using 100mg ED and feel great, I would love to up to 200mg tho.

253

T-Beast, you are telling people that the point of diminishing returns from Test comes at ~2100mg/wk?
Sorry, but for lack of a better retort - Get Fucked!

For most who have done it, and also myself - i find that gains really start to diminish in favour of sides over 700-800mg/wk, and others suggest 1g a week is the max dose where after that sides increase disproportionately.

I know of some who have ran around 3g of AAS/wk - this included 2000mg Test a week. For most this was painfully uncomfortable, low sex drive and general crappy feeling - for one, he loved it! I suspect it is due to the individuals particular affinity for aromatase conversion etc… with those who do not excessively convert test to estrogen being able to tolerate higher doses. I am sure there are other enzymatic conversions that affect this though.

For the majority i would say between 800-1000mg is the point where diminishing returns really begin to set in.

For myself, i like to keep a dose of 100mg/day test Prop -750mg Test Enan for all general cycles. I am sure this will increase over time… But i wont be doubling the dose of ANY drug i take anytime soon. Small steps for this chap… :wink:

Brook

254

Brook,

i got the 2000mg/week dose from durious georges sticky on long cycles…

255

Fair enough - However sadly there are a number of problems with that sticky - or any sticky giving standard information for a subjective decision.

You will notice for example, that since that sticky was made, the majority here recommend shorter, higher dose cycles than the 12 weeker outlined there, due to better recovery but the same or better gains.

This is because since it has been written, we have learnt that there are better ways.

If we all still followed what was believed to be true from the past, we’d all still be injecting 5000iu HCG post cycle and riding horses to work.

I understand that while you think that blindly following the advice a respected member has written for newbs cant be wrong… It can.
You following that advice with no further checking or research is one thing - your body, your risk.
However repeating information that you have not researched and are blindly following is not what this site is about IMO, and is ignorant and reckless concerning others.

In this case the info isnt dangerous - just not optimal, if you must give advice here - make sure it is correct and researched before doing so.

Brook

256

I’m 38 and I’ve been training for the better part of my adult life and have run three cycles in the past. All have been 12 weeks in duration and have consisted of only 2 substances run simultaneously ( Cyp + Deca, Enanthate + Var, Etc…). I would like to make more substantial gains with my next cycle and could really use some helpful advice on how to run the gear I have.

I would like to gain some mass then harden up a bit. I currently have 3 bottles Cyp 200 mg/ml, 3 bottles Primo 100 mg/ml, 200 Dbol 10 mg, 200 Var 10 mg, 200 Winny tabs 10 mg. I was thinking I would run the cyp the entire cycle and front load with the dbol for the first 4 weeks for a quick start and extra mass. I was going to run the primo weeks 4 - 12 but I’m not quite sure how to run the var and the winny with this cycle or if I even should use both. I also have 3 bottles HCG 10,000 IU, Arimidex (enough to run during cycle and for PCT) and clomid . Any advice on cycle structure and dosages would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

257

makes sense, my appologies

258

i have never done a cycle before, worked out 3 yrs in high school and 4 years on and off in my mid 20’s now i am 29 and just feel my natural gains are not going to happen any more… i got my hands on 50ml of test enanthe 200mg/ml and can get more thats all i could afford at this time planned on doing 2 250mg injections per week… the problem i have is i can’t get EB anywhere can i taper off super gradually to avoid any major complications or should i not get involved with this until i figure out the end of cycle problem that i don’t have covered yet??

i have read these posts in this forum ALOT and i know you vets get kinda down on newbie questions i’ve done alot of research and the questions that i want answered are all over the spectrum due to opinions i guess what i am saying is that anyone that remembers being confused about what to do way back when and is now experienced and would like to help a guy out i would greatly appreciate it!!!

259

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:

GettinSwole69
I am 16 yrs old and want to straight up do the juice to get huge but not too huge…just add about 50lbs of muscle and lose 30lbs of fat so that I can score chicks at the beach and bench more than everyone at my highschool. I am 5’7" and 147lbs 20%bf. I have been lifting for 7 months and have already added a lot of muscle but now I think I need gear to see any gains. I am thinking of a stack of winny tren and deca shot once a week in my abs and biceps for 4 weeks to gain as much lean mass as possible. Will this stack get me swole or do I need some other super sick combinaton?

I wonder why I read past the first line.

FG[/quote]

I am sorry, but this must be appreciated solely for it’s humor. I damn near shit my pants twice reading that. Anyway, sorry for the interruption.

260

[quote]goose79 wrote:
i have never done a cycle before, worked out 3 yrs in high school and 4 years on and off in my mid 20’s now i am 29 and just feel my natural gains are not going to happen any more… i got my hands on 50ml of test enanthe 200mg/ml and can get more thats all i could afford at this time planned on doing 2 250mg injections per week… the problem i have is i can’t get EB anywhere can i taper off super gradually to avoid any major complications or should i not get involved with this until i figure out the end of cycle problem that i don’t have covered yet??

i have read these posts in this forum ALOT and i know you vets get kinda down on newbie questions i’ve done alot of research and the questions that i want answered are all over the spectrum due to opinions i guess what i am saying is that anyone that remembers being confused about what to do way back when and is now experienced and would like to help a guy out i would greatly appreciate it!!![/quote]

Shit, i remember when i first learnt enough about AAS to realise it was a very complicated and multifaceted topic. I remember being moderately confused about how to cycle, but my cycles consisted of a diamond pattern when i first started playing with the drugs… and AI’s weren’t available for anyone but pro’s at that price.

However, i also remember buying a (particularly bad) book and reading the profiles in great depth, of every single compound immediately related to my goals in the subject. This included all bulking drugs, especially the ones that didn’t aromatise too much. Estrogen management (at that time) and PCT.
The first time i ran a cycle with no advice other than my readings i ran Deca w/ proviron with a Tamoxifen PCT (40/40/20/20) started 2 weeks after the last Deca shot. It was a very effective and enjoyable cycle for me.
Of course i do things idifferently these days, but if i relied on being told everything i know, i wouldn’t know much.
Anyway, as i suspect this highly moral story will fall on deaf ears… the answer to your question is - Don’t run it until you have everything worked out and in your possession.
The PCT i used for the cycle mentioned will suffice for your cycle… ran identically (starting two weeks after the last test shot, and running for 4 weeks - 40mg/day for 2 weeks then 20mg/day for the last two.

Steroid profiles are a great place to start…

Brook

261

Hey guys this is my second post on T-Nation. This will be my 2nd cycle. I have done a trenbolone acetate and test prop only cycle before and made pretty good gains off of it but got some gyno from it ( I know I didn’t have nolva on hand and now have to pay 3000 bucks to get the shit removed.

My stats are 26yrs old, 6’5 265lbs 9-11% bodyfat. I have been training for 3-4 yrs and diet is on point. My goal is to carry 275-285 pounds at around 6-8% bodyfat by the time I am 30 yrs old. I have been researching steroids thoroughly.

As far as post cycle goes what would be a good dosing schedule for nolva and clomid. I don’t have access to HCG.
1-12 Test enathate 500 mg/week
1-12 equipoise 400 mg/ week
1-4 d-bol 30 mg/ day
1-14 arimidex .5 mg /day

questions?? should I frontload the test e and equipoise and do both for 8 weeks? What mg should my first dose be of test e and equipoise? What should my dose be for the rest of the cycle. Any help would be appreciated.

262

[quote]rcassidy23 wrote:
Hey guys this is my second post on T-Nation. This will be my 2nd cycle. I have done a trenbolone acetate and test prop only cycle before and made pretty good gains off of it but got some gyno from it ( I know I didn’t have nolva on hand and now have to pay 3000 bucks to get the shit removed.

My stats are 26yrs old, 6’5 265lbs 9-11% bodyfat. I have been training for 3-4 yrs and diet is on point. My goal is to carry 275-285 pounds at around 6-8% bodyfat by the time I am 30 yrs old. I have been researching steroids thoroughly.

As far as post cycle goes what would be a good dosing schedule for nolva and clomid. I don’t have access to HCG.
1-12 Test enathate 500 mg/week
1-12 equipoise 400 mg/ week
1-4 d-bol 30 mg/ day
1-14 arimidex .5 mg /day

questions?? should I frontload the test e and equipoise and do both for 8 weeks? What mg should my first dose be of test e and equipoise? What should my dose be for the rest of the cycle. Any help would be appreciated.
[/quote]

I would run it for 8 weeks instead of 12 and definitely frontload Test E. You can do a search for the frontload equation but I think it would work out to 640mg off the top of my head. Basically first shot is tha and then the second shot is whatever your dosing off of.

Alot of people split up Test E into two weekly shots of 250mg. If you can, I would highly reccomend pinning EOD for optimal blood levels.

As to the PCT question. If you have the option go with nolva, it’s lower dosage and lower side effects are a definite positive.
PCT would look like:
Weeks 9 & 10: adex @ .25-.5 EOD-ED as needed.
Weeks 11-14: nolva dosed at 40mg/40mg/20mg/20mg.

I think that’s all of your questions. As a side note, I’m not nearly as tall or as heavy as you are but if you’re sitting at 265 now I think in four years you can definitely put on more than 20 pounds. Having said that, I don’t know if you’ve reached your genetic potential yet, but at 6’5 I bet you could hit more than 285. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide.

263

I think different things will work for different people.

That’s why I gave a lot of different cycle lengths - some people swear 2 week cycles work best for them, others say the best way to go is to be on all year round. The guide will show you how to do those and anything in between.

There is a general range on a lot of the recommendations for compound doses…I think 200mg ED of prop is a level that would be considered an upper range for experienced users but certainly not the spot where you get deminishing returns. Personally I felt like crap over 1g/w test. There are people that shoot 3-4g a week of gear which i think is stupid but they think is necessary. It makes zero sense for me but perfect sense for them. So there is a range given which people need to find what works for them by doing some experimenting but at least they have a general idea and a starting point to work from.

My guideline is just that…a guideline…it is by no means the final word. If I find a new/better way of doing something I try to come back here to update what is now outdated (today I changed the recommended low dose HCG to 250iu 3x/w from 250iu E4D and the taper I added a 2 week off period before the 40mg e3d because these seem to be better ways of doing things).

I am sure people are going to continue to find better ways of doing stuff and I will try to keep updating but this isn’t my job (this is info I posted for free from my own research as a public service to give back to a community that has given me a lot).

So please anyone reading the guide take it with a grain of salt not as the word of god.

264

GREAT forum - thanks!!! this will help alot!