Where will the money come from?
Tax and spend?
[quote]doogie wrote:
Teachers’ unions are part of the evil liberal empire you always scream about.[/quote]
BINGO!
[quote]brunoG wrote:
…
4) Two professions with a highest burnout and dropout rates are nurses and teachers so obviously there are some problems there.
…
[/quote]
I disagree with some of what you said but this one I question if it is true and why it would be.
I suspect a significant amount teachers drop out to have babies and never return. Probably the same can be said of nurses.
I stress level in being a nurse is far higher than being a teacher.
It’s amazing how little most of you know about teaching. First of all, the tenure system is set up to give someone at least (NY law, some other states have a different time period) three years to prove they know how to teach. After that, they have to qualify as a “master” teacher to receive permanent certification (once again, NYS). As for your three month off crap, anyone who actually teaches or knows a teacher knows that the good ones put in an incredible amount of extra time prepping for what we do on our 7-3 day. As for closing schools that don’t perform, much as I hate it, read the NCLB legislation, which holds all schools accountable for failing to meet certain standards, in which case they can be taken over or have their funding cut off. That is an incredible difference in accountability from what there was 8 years ago. I won’t even begin to bitch about the amount of money I could be making with my Master’s degree because that argument is older than the crust on Neophorn’s untouched underwear. Yes, teaching salaries are related to property and school taxes, etc. If you want to change that and ease the tax burden, then why don’t you do something simple such as changing the funding system to include the wonderful corporations in the areas you live in, all of whom usually end up demanding tax breaks to operate there. Speaking from the inside, having been a teacher for the last 6 years, I can tell you that most administrators are clueless morons who couldn’t make it in a classroom, so they got their worthless tails promoted upwards. Beyond that, most administrators don’t have a frigging clue about how to run a business or deal with the bookkeeping required to run a district and keep it successful. Before some of you idiots continue posting your crap, get a clue and find out what you’re talking about. I’m about 99% sure that most of you non-teachers bashing us wouldn’t make it through a single school day without getting strung up by one of your 34 student classrooms.
[quote]kroc30 wrote:
It’s amazing how little most of you know about teaching. First of all, the tenure system is set up to give someone at least (NY law, some other states have a different time period) three years to prove they know how to teach. After that, they have to qualify as a “master” teacher to receive permanent certification (once again, NYS). As for your three month off crap, anyone who actually teaches or knows a teacher knows that the good ones put in an incredible amount of extra time prepping for what we do on our 7-3 day. … [/quote]
My wife is a college professor but she has taught highschool. My old gf is an elementary school teacher. My uncle is a retired NYS HS math teacher. My sister in law is a high school English and French teacher. My buddy is a junior high teacher.
The all say the same thing. The first year it is hard to prepare. After a few years they have minimal prep work and plenty of free time.
I don’t bash teachers, nor do I give them a pass on all the bullshit they pull through the unions.
They are generally well paid for the work they do and have far better job security than anyone else.
They won’t get rich but they can live a nice life with more leisure time than most other professionals.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Without the unions, I suspect that top pay would be about $30,000/year, or some amount to just keep a supply of young idealistic fools entering the field.
If there were no public schools, or they were run like businesses in fair competition with private schools, school quality would go up. If it went down, that particular school would go out of business.
Remember when you cut the free market out, you are also eliminating demand, or the means to make demand known, which is going to drive quality. Yes, things might start out as you say, until parents decide that these 30K per year teachers just aren’t cutting it, and start to demand better service.
But teachers want a free ride. Not that I think they’re bad people - they are like everyone else in wanting job security in addition to higher pay. But to expect that a socialized system will produce great educators - or great anything else - is pure folly.[/quote]
A big problem I see with privatizing the schools is the resources. Another is the curriculum.
Public schools tax just about everyone, which is unfair in principle. But if only those who’re able to pay can get into a school, poor people will go uneducated.
Another: what if the KKK or some other bunch of whackos open a school? If we privatize, then who knows wtf would be taught.
There must be a way to maximize the free component, the capitalist idealism, with the the lousy system in place now.
Vouchers and schoolchoice seems like the most realistic options for now.
Note: My goal is to teach as well as possible to as many as possible. Uneducated idiots are easier to rule, which is what I’m battling.
Hmmm…maybe that’s why our system is lousy…on purpose?
[quote]kroc30 wrote:
It’s amazing how little most of you know about teaching. First of all, the tenure system is set up to give someone at least (NY law, some other states have a different time period) three years to prove they know how to teach. After that, they have to qualify as a “master” teacher to receive permanent certification (once again, NYS). As for your three month off crap, anyone who actually teaches or knows a teacher knows that the good ones put in an incredible amount of extra time prepping for what we do on our 7-3 day. As for closing schools that don’t perform, much as I hate it, read the NCLB legislation, which holds all schools accountable for failing to meet certain standards, in which case they can be taken over or have their funding cut off. That is an incredible difference in accountability from what there was 8 years ago. I won’t even begin to bitch about the amount of money I could be making with my Master’s degree because that argument is older than the crust on Neophorn’s untouched underwear. Yes, teaching salaries are related to property and school taxes, etc. If you want to change that and ease the tax burden, then why don’t you do something simple such as changing the funding system to include the wonderful corporations in the areas you live in, all of whom usually end up demanding tax breaks to operate there. Speaking from the inside, having been a teacher for the last 6 years, I can tell you that most administrators are clueless morons who couldn’t make it in a classroom, so they got their worthless tails promoted upwards. Beyond that, most administrators don’t have a frigging clue about how to run a business or deal with the bookkeeping required to run a district and keep it successful. Before some of you idiots continue posting your crap, get a clue and find out what you’re talking about. I’m about 99% sure that most of you non-teachers bashing us wouldn’t make it through a single school day without getting strung up by one of your 34 student classrooms. [/quote]
What a total load of crap. Six years?
Then on to bashing the admins…yeah, it’s ALL their fault I’m sure.
Once again, you teachers are the biggest cry babies I think we have to deal with year in, year out. It’s a long list and is populated mainly by people employed by the government in some capacity.
Kroc, if you don’t like the pay, get another job. The truth is that you don’t have to work very hard, you DO get LOT of time off and those two reasons are probably the very reasons you wanted to get into that profession in the first place. The rest of your post is just a kroc, kroc.
Did you know what you’d be paid as a teacher for oh, I don’t know, TWENTY YEARS prior to taking the damn job?
Tenure? Needs to be done away with. It’s worthless except for job security for people like you who can’t obtain job security any other way.
Taxes? I’d be willing to pay more if it would produce better students and teachers. It wouldn’t and since you don’t make enough to have much of a tax burden, you are not qualified to discuss it. You’re probably expecting your refund about now if you haven’t received it yet. It’s people like you that piss me off this time of year as I begin working with my CPA to keep the IRS from taking everything I earn.
Yeah, let’s give all the little teachers more money…that should fix it.
Masters degree? Who cares, if you are able to produce more with an advanced degree…good for you. I’d rather hire and train a hard working individual who WANTS to work and expects to be paid based on his production and addition to the bottom line than some pencil neck geek with his lil degree who thinks I owe him cause he THINKS he’s so damn smart that I can’t do without him.
Regarding the money you could make with a masters degree, that comment shows how little you know about business. Masters degrees are a dime a dozen. Starbucks is loaded with guys with masters degrees selling coffee.
Unless your masters in in a field that is in demand it can be worse than useless in the business world but it certainly can help in government work.
I agree with you regarding administration. Schools pay far too much for the administrators and they are usually less competent than the teachers. That is the way of the world.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Without the unions, I suspect that top pay would be about $30,000/year, or some amount to just keep a supply of young idealistic fools entering the field.
If there were no public schools, or they were run like businesses in fair competition with private schools, school quality would go up. If it went down, that particular school would go out of business.
Remember when you cut the free market out, you are also eliminating demand, or the means to make demand known, which is going to drive quality. Yes, things might start out as you say, until parents decide that these 30K per year teachers just aren’t cutting it, and start to demand better service.
But teachers want a free ride. Not that I think they’re bad people - they are like everyone else in wanting job security in addition to higher pay. But to expect that a socialized system will produce great educators - or great anything else - is pure folly.
A big problem I see with privatizing the schools is the resources. Another is the curriculum.
Public schools tax just about everyone, which is unfair in principle. But if only those who’re able to pay can get into a school, poor people will go uneducated.
Another: what if the KKK or some other bunch of whackos open a school? If we privatize, then who knows wtf would be taught.
There must be a way to maximize the free component, the capitalist idealism, with the the lousy system in place now.
Vouchers and schoolchoice seems like the most realistic options for now.
Note: My goal is to teach as well as possible to as many as possible. Uneducated idiots are easier to rule, which is what I’m battling.
Hmmm…maybe that’s why our system is lousy…on purpose?
[/quote]
Great points. NYC, where I teach doesn’t use a voucher, but they do give their students choices on where they would like to go to school. Difficult as it is because of the size, a good portion of the schools have some type of specialty for the students to study and choose from. For example, one of the schools by Wall Street is strictly for Economics and business, my school has specialties in business, criminal justice, and law, while others specialize in Marine Science, etc. It gives students much more of a choice to find a school where they actually want to be and subjects they actually want to study instead of getting warehoused until they turn 21.
Zap Branigan wrote
stress level in being a nurse is far higher than being a teacher.
That would depend on where you teach or what type of nurse you are. I am sure that inner city teachers in Detroit, Newark, etc where half of the class is wearing gang colors would beg to differ. On the other hand being an ER nurse in those same cities would not be a walk in the park either. I truly do not understand the dislike for teachers people have in this country. I travel a lot and have never seen this anywhere else. It?s a fairly stressful job with mediocre pay and to do it well you do have to put in a lot of extra hours. Most teachers that I know also work during the summer. I dealt with bad accountants, doctors, contractors and bad lawyers but I don?t see anyone bashing their entire profession in a same manner.
[quote]brunoG wrote:
… I dealt with bad accountants,
[/quote]
bean counters
quacks
crooks
shysters
These are all some of the most denigrated professions out there. If you do not hear people putting them down you are not listening.
[quote]tme wrote:
ron33 wrote:
This same thing has been happening out in the real world for 25-30 yrs. now,now that its coming round to your teachers, cops, firemen,and govt employees all these smug comfortable people that basically retired when they took these jobs are going to wake up and realize whats going on.My children’s schools have a proud gay, male teacher thats been spewing his crap to the kids for at least 10 yrs. and shows up late everyday,and nobody in the school system has the ball’s to do anything about it,I know plenty of teachers at my childrens school who have a great list of degrees but no common since and cant deal with reality.i say their institutionalized,they have been in the school systems their whole lives and dont know what is really going on because they have never been out of their little enviroment.
Most of these teacers make about $50,000 a year and think they have it rough.LOL.Sure I know there are some good dedicated teachers,but the majority around here SUCK,They are even to lazy to grade papers etc. and have the kids doing it.
I live in a Highly conservative area and the majority of these teachers are proud republicans .Also Most of the private schools in my area get the teachers that dont have good enough qualifications to teach in the public schools.
Just trying to read that makes me wince. Are you a product of said education system? If so you deserve a refund, at least for the English portion, since they failed to teach you basic grammar, punctuation and spelling. Are your math skills equivalent? Hopefully you can at least make correct change at the register you will be manning for many years to come.
I’m probably going to hell for this, but I agree in principle with HH on this matter.
[/quote]
Actually ,I am past the point in my life where i worry about such things as punctuation and grammer.To me its immaterial on a site such as this, i get brain fade on my spelling sometimes now days,when i type something ii do it quickly and dont put the extra effort to check it out.I am not a wordsmith and this is not a legal document. but when it really matters it is done properly.also i have never been short changed or cheated on my finances,Thru the yrs. a lot of folks who thought they were slick or highly intelligent have tried but so far it hasnt happened.I do know several teachers and a few administrators and their spelling makes mine look grandious,also have known several drs. and lawyers that were terrible at spelling.To me it does not matter anymore if you really look at the english language it is full of contradictions,I believe the original designers made several mistakes!! If you have time to worry about such matters you must have a pretty easy life with nothing else to do.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Without the unions, I suspect that top pay would be about $30,000/year, or some amount to just keep a supply of young idealistic fools entering the field.
If there were no public schools, or they were run like businesses in fair competition with private schools, school quality would go up. If it went down, that particular school would go out of business.
Remember when you cut the free market out, you are also eliminating demand, or the means to make demand known, which is going to drive quality. Yes, things might start out as you say, until parents decide that these 30K per year teachers just aren’t cutting it, and start to demand better service.
But teachers want a free ride. Not that I think they’re bad people - they are like everyone else in wanting job security in addition to higher pay. But to expect that a socialized system will produce great educators - or great anything else - is pure folly.
A big problem I see with privatizing the schools is the resources. Another is the curriculum.
Public schools tax just about everyone, which is unfair in principle. But if only those who’re able to pay can get into a school, poor people will go uneducated.
Another: what if the KKK or some other bunch of whackos open a school? If we privatize, then who knows wtf would be taught.
There must be a way to maximize the free component, the capitalist idealism, with the the lousy system in place now.
Vouchers and schoolchoice seems like the most realistic options for now.
Note: My goal is to teach as well as possible to as many as possible. Uneducated idiots are easier to rule, which is what I’m battling.
Hmmm…maybe that’s why our system is lousy…on purpose?
[/quote]
I dont know anything about their curriculum,but i know several Amish families that have their own school and only go to the 8th grade,they take turns teaching the school.And most important ,they all have their own business a pocketful of money,houses are all paid for,and have never seen them comeout on the short end on a deal.
[quote]kroc30 wrote:
I won’t even begin to bitch about the amount of money I could be making with my Master’s degree because that argument is older than the crust on Neophorn’s untouched underwear. [/quote]
If you’re going to make a jab at me, at least get the name right.
As far as NCLB, it is the result of a system that is increasingly diminishing states’ rights. But that’s neither here nor there.
I haven’t had my coffee yet, so I’ll just say that if you’re really in favor of accountability the way you say you are, then school vouchers and school choice (similar to, but better than what you mentioned for NYC) shouldn’t be a problem for you. In fact, we should be agreeing.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A big problem I see with privatizing the schools is the resources. Another is the curriculum.
Public schools tax just about everyone, which is unfair in principle. But if only those who’re able to pay can get into a school, poor people will go uneducated.
[/quote]
I disagree that the principle is unfair… universal education is the basis on which classical liberalism (and our republic) stands. So I have no problem with taxes being used to fund the schools.
What? The KKK could open a school now. And parents would be within their rights to send their children to that school, and pay for it out of pocket. The difference with the voucher is only that the parents would be saving some money, and introducing a democratic element into the school selection process.
Yep.
I doubt it.
[quote]pookie wrote:
By the by, what does one learn in the 27th year of teaching algebra that a younger teacher won’t figure out for himself in a few years?
[/quote]
Isn’t algebra usually taught by the inexperienced teachers, anyway? Though, I agree that good, experienced teachers are few and far between it seems to me that we have a lot of turds floating in the punch bowl that need removing. What’s the difference between a teacher with 20 years of experience and 5 years of experience when teaching algebra–or any highschool subject for that matter?
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
The logical solution, HH, would be to join a private school. I haven’t studied this issue on my own but I can predict with economic certainty that this problem doesn’t exist when the funding is private, and thus directly tied to teacher/school’s performance.[/quote]
But are private schools really any better? I don’t mean just regarding teacher performance but in terms of the final products? You wouldn’t believe the amount of private school students I see that don’t understand the concept of dimensional analysis–an eighth-grade algebra skill.
This leads me to believe that because parents are paying the exorbitant costs of their progenies’ education the schools feel obliged to pass the students despite their students’ below average performance.
EDIT–I am not implying in anyway that public v. private is better or vice-verse.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
By the by, what does one learn in the 27th year of teaching algebra that a younger teacher won’t figure out for himself in a few years?
Isn’t algebra usually taught by the inexperienced teachers, anyway? Though, I agree that good, experienced teachers are few and far between it seems to me that we have a lot of turds floating in the punch bowl that need removing. What’s the difference between a teacher with 20 years of experience and 5 years of experience when teaching algebra–or any highschool subject for that matter?[/quote]
15 years?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
15 years?[/quote]
15 years of what?
If the kids struggle at a simple concepts like that they should not be in your class in the first place.