I could post studies. You can post studies. Between the two of us that supports that concept that people are different.
It is very common for people to try different medications until they find the one that works no matter the class of medication.
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Where is this data that shows estrogen caused issues In men on TRT? You are the first person to mention they have legit studies. Please share because I know of nothing that will change my mind.
FFS bro science is where all this came from. Doctors took Guidance from Treating Body builders who told them they needed to regulate estrogen.
Now you have legit doctors who only do HRT are doing the research and realizing itās not needed. Ffs these doctors took an ai. They keep asking show me evidence. Literature. Articles. Something.
So please back your comments up.
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You want me to post a study that says elevated Estrogen can have negative effects in men (or even women)? Are you for real lol? Sorry man google that yourself and choose from any of the thousands of links.
Honestly, I donāt see the point of your post. I just believe people are different. I think your right much of the time. I really donāt understand why this is so contentious.
Bro are you serious? Thatās not what I asked.
The studies you are going to post are on the absence of other hormones. We all know too much estrogen, and not enough free t, DHT, progesterone and Thyroid is a recipe for disaster. Itās called catching diabetes and etc
Now go find a study that shows the need for estrogen management while on TRT.
Or better yet find me a study that shows the benefits of TRT that used an AI to regulate.
Now go and find the benefits of estrogen in men and woman.
Woman catch breast cancer when they donāt have enough. Men catch heart attacks, high blood pressure and more when their E is low.
The list goes on.
If you need an ai, then you are doing it wrong or just cannot man up through the period like symptoms.
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I believe that is exactly what the collective is seeking. For real.
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Seriouslyā¦ my man. Youāre looking weak as hell in the debate department from a shear lack of effort. I am genuinely interested here but you are offering nothing. Nice google link. Did you even read the studies. For starters we are looking for studies of elevated estrogen in men with adequate T levels.
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Well Iām not trying to win a debate. Hence the title of the thread. Your trying to engage with a person that already told you I donāt care in the title lol. And in my opinion anyone on the internet arguing to the degree that people in here do looks weak as hell. My entire stance is people are different. And that there is significant data everywhere in the world that people are unique whether talking about pharmacokinetics or nutrition, or exercise, or mental health or genetics. This isnāt even controversial.
Please post a study that says everyone is the same
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Iām still undecided personally which is why Iām now following. FWIW I believe 99% of men can self regulate as long as their T dose is reasonable. Prob is many clinics are now over prescribing test as in too high of dosages. I firmly believe though that the strong majority of men can find a dose of solo T that works for them and their own bodyās aromatizing. Itās hard to argue that there are not outliers.
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I agree with you. Iāll keep you posted on how it all goes. Get some anecdotal data for you guys.
Here is my evidence:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ml3jnxdxpBTc3kKIIpW3KT5CqrwIdjuG
Start with Estradiol as a male hormone. Please note the mountain of references to other supporting studies at the bottom. Most people will stop after reading this one as it is as complete as it gets.
If this is still insufficient, read Beyond the Abstract - Role of estradiol in normal male function
If still insufficient, there are a ton more provided to you on a silver platter right there. Go through them all and tell me where they have all gone horribly wrong.
Please provide your evidence.
This is why I laugh hysterically at guys like you. I PROVIDE EVIDENCE. You tell me to go Google evidence to support your claim. It doesnāt work that way. Provide evidence as indicated above to support your claim or admit you have none. Your call.
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There are winged fairies living under my bed who come out only at night and sprinkle their magical fairy dust upon me while I sleep making me a demi-god. I donāt care what you say.
Yup. Sounds credible. āThis is my belief and I donāt care what you say.ā You canāt even demonstrate your belief and have probably never even had a shred of critical thought to even challenge your beliefs. How utterly convincing.
Again, this is why I giggleā¦ because itās stupid.
Not trying to contradict the literature, but does it address E2 that is way outside of range? Not being sarcastic with my post.
Or is it discussing E2 that is within the ranges of ānormalā?
Heres a view. Compare to drinking coffee.
Person A can sleep at night when drinking coffee in the evening. Person B canāt sleep all night when they drink coffee in the evening.
I believe same is true with above range estradiol. In that it may have negative affects in some men and not in others. There isnāt a study for all this stuff. But we probably have anecdotal evidence just from guys in this forum.
Things to keep in mind here. Look at the current clinical range for testosterone. The high end of normal is mid 700s now (which demonstrates how sick the population has become). With the high end of normal only going so high, we canāt expect the high end of normal for estradiol to be all that high. Most guys on TRT are getting their levels up to where they attain symptom resolution and, frequently, this means a total T of over 1000. They want their T high but somehow donāt want the E2 to fall into balance with T. Thatās not how it works. If you raise T, E2 follows and this is normal and to be expected. It isnāt a bad thing.
The low range of estradiol is WAY too low. We know this since we see countless people that low due to too much AI use and they all have issues.
The other thing you need to think of is we have never seen a study where it was indicated, āā¦ through our research, we determined that any level of E2 over X needed to be addressed using an aromatase inhibitorā¦ā Itās just not done. There is no steady that states a certain level being too āhighā especially in the presence of sufficient androgens.
Aromatase inhibitors are anti-cancer medications designed for women. Think about that. Why are you taking an anti-cancer medication?
We see claims on bro science forums of AIs being beneficial for health. This is as true as me claiming to be Elvis Presley. If it were demonstrably true, guess what? We would all be taking it. We all took it. We all learned more. We all realized it was a mistake and are reaping the benefits of estradiol.
If you are a bodybuilder on synthetic anabolics that aromatise heavily into synthetic estrogens, all bets are off. I am talking about testosterone and estradiol, nothing more.
When you read through the Estradiol as a Male Hormone paper, and see the benefits it provides, you need to ask yourself why you would possibly want to reduce these benefits.
There is no study deeming testosterone causing harm at any level (again, Iām discussing testosterone and not synthetic anabolics). There is no compelling study deeming estradiol as causing harm. For every flawed associative study that deemed E2 was associated with xyz (harm) you raise estradiol in these same men by raising testosterone and they improve.
Just look at all the scary prostate cancer nonsense studies they have out there. Dr Jordan Grant will get men with prostate issues on TRT, raising both T and E2, and the patients improve across the board. He can demonstrate this over and over and over and has been for quite some time. Being a urologist who is also a prescribing physician, he has been able to demonstrate the benefits of testosterone and estradiol in his own patients. He was once a big proponent of AI use until he dove into the research. The biggest factor causing prostate issues is insufficient androgens.
Againā¦ evidence. Go through that Google Drive link I provided. If you have compelling evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
I would LOVE to know that Iām wrong and be provided with the correct info because I canāt stand having the wrong information. This is where you guys fail. Change my mind! An extraordinary claim will require extraordinary evidence at this point.
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Itās been studied for 80 years. How much more research do we need? Did you see how many papers I provided here?
What IS unique for each person is weekly dose, frequency of injection, and the resultant free testosterone levels that make them feel their best. Thatās the only concern when it comes to TRT specifically.
Are there outliers? Yes. Weāre talking about perhaps a 1 in 20,000 case (perhaps higher than that). I know of three out of tens of thousands. One with E2 in the several hundreds (clearly an underlying issue here) and two with an aromatase deficiency where they require estradiol supplementation.
The problem is that as soon as I say there are exceptions, every idiot in this forum thinks heās the 1 in 20,000 case. No, you are not that special I can assure you.
You have no idea how long Iāve been waiting to hear you say that 
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Your studies are predominantly about people with unhealthy levels of hormones and how they are detrimental to health. This supports my position. Your papers are meta analysis or studies with a very small sample sizes (19). In one of the studies it actually mentions an armotase gene mutation which supports my position that we are all unique. You have extrapolated on these papers and interpreted them in a way that incorrectly supports your position that Estrogen canāt go so high its unhealthy. Nowhere have you proven this so please post evidence. Your asking me to post evidence that having testosterone, estrogen, and aromatase within healthy ranges is healthy. Thatās like asking me to prove the sky is blue. There is evidence everywhere but you will choose not to acknowledge it. My point is that your papers do not meet your own requirements for validation. You can discount my studies because they donāt fit perfectly into clinical trials of TRT, well neither do yours. So lets see something that supports your position that hormones and enzymes outside of range are healthy.
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plenty of papers stating that elevated (or suppressed) hormones can have detrimental effects