Very, very good article on Afghanistan and Gen. McChrystal in NYT Magazine this weekend. It’s long, but very well researched and worth the read. Filkins spent a lot of time with the troops on the ground and with McChrystal.
I don’t really like the idea of sending more troops to prop up the failed, incompetent and corrupt Karzai government, but this article has me leaning the other way. Especially if they straighten out the recent election fraud fiasco.
Without even reading this article (which I will) I have to say that my stance on Afghanistan has become less certain in recent months. Not that I no longer view a decisive victory as necessary, but that I don’t know if one is possible without practically razing the place with a carpet bombing campaign that would make rolling thunder look like a fireworks show.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Without even reading this article (which I will) I have to say that my stance on Afghanistan has become less certain in recent months. Not that I no longer view a decisive victory as necessary, but that I don’t know if one is possible without practically razing the place with a carpet bombing campaign that would make rolling thunder look like a fireworks show.[/quote]
Add the Afghanis having no confidence in the election process now. We’re fighting to help maintain a government the Afghanis probably don’t even view as legitimate. So now we have any big surges on hold, until that mess is figured out.
[quote]â??We need schools!â?? one Afghan called back. â??Schools!â??
â??Weâ??re working on that,â?? McChrystal said. â??Those things take time.â??
McChrystal walked some more, engaging another group of Afghans. He posed the same question.
â??Security,â?? a man said. â??We need security. Security first, then the other things will be possible.â??
â??That is what we are trying to do,â?? McChrystal said. â??But itâ??s going to take time. Success takes time.â??
The questions kept coming, and the answer was the same. After a couple of hours, McChrystal put on his helmet and flak jacket, boarded the Black Hawk and flew to another town.
[/quote]
“These things take time!” Then he rode off into the sunset.
The Taliban provided both: schools and security. They were all jihadist madrassas, but schools nonetheless. And they stick around.
Time to pull out.
I think we screwed the pooch on Afghanistan when we started going after the opium. That shit had nothing to do with “The War on Terror” and everything to do with our idiotic “War on Drugs”. The average Afghani farmer is poor as fuck and is just barely able to provide for his family by growing poppies. We come in, as outsiders, destroy his crops and tell him he has to grow something else, which is undeniably less profitable. I’m sure anyone on this forum would take up arms if some outsiders came in to your community and started fucking with your livelyhood. We should have focused solely on Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, and left their domestic politics alone.
Interesting that the conservatives on this thread seem to be urging a pull out, while the ones in DC are giving Obama shit for not immediately throwing more troops and resources in.
Thanks for the article tme.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
I think we screwed the pooch on Afghanistan when we started going after the opium. That shit had nothing to do with “The War on Terror” and everything to do with our idiotic “War on Drugs”. The average Afghani farmer is poor as fuck and is just barely able to provide for his family by growing poppies. We come in, as outsiders, destroy his crops and tell him he has to grow something else, which is undeniably less profitable. I’m sure anyone on this forum would take up arms if some outsiders came in to your community and started fucking with your livelyhood. We should have focused solely on Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, and left their domestic politics alone. [/quote]
The opium trade which also fuels western heroin distribution is a major source of funding for terror in that area. I don’t particularly care whether they like our disrupting that or not. That said you are correct in that it won’t help our effort to sway public opinion, but probably not much will help that anyway.
If we pull out of there and let Al Qaeda have free reign we WILL see more attacks with contributions from Afghanistan at which time people would be up in arms demanding an explanation. However there is no way we will ever, in my lifetime at least, be able to leave that place unsupervised without it falling back into a terrorist stronghold. The bottom line is we have to be prepared for long term occupation or more attacks from there either of which blows.
I honestly don’t envy Obama in this position, but all we heard from him through the campaign was how this was the necessary war and how he would take the camel by the horns and show all the Iraq war supporters how it’s done. Let’s see what ya got now pres.
I like the solution Eric Margolis came up with. Instead of sending troops, the US should have just paid the taliban to take out Al-Qaida.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I like the solution Eric Margolis came up with. Instead of sending troops, the US should have just paid the taliban to take out Al-Qaida.
[/quote]
Yeah. That’s a good solution.
Pay the Taliban to take out Al Qaeda. Then give money to the Northern Alliance to take out the Taliban. When Pakistan comes to the aid of the Taliban, start trying to get Iran to worry about the Sunni menace on its northern border. Give money to the Shia in Pakistan to start fighting the Taliban. Convince Iran they should help. Get out of India’s way if they decide to occupy Pakistan.
0 American troops dead.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The opium trade which also fuels western heroin distribution is a major source of funding for terror in that area. [/quote]
It’s also a major source of funding for, everything. Afghanistan has no industry, no major natural resources. Heroin is the only cash crop, the only money maker. Of course the terrorists use this, but so does everyone else.
I read it. McChrystal seems like an up and up guy but his battle is hopeless. Regardless of what is said, you cann’t win this ‘occupation.’ While the brush paints the US forces as benevolent and the taliban as rutheless. The fact of the matter is, we are outsiders, we are foriegners, and we are invaders. Our soldiers are too unmotivated to be successful at this war. Every guy I talk to who has been over there, hates ROE, and says the war is pointless. The purpose of the US forces are to play third world baby sitter for some illiterate, stupid, and emotional people.
At least the Taliban want to do that, the average US soldier is trapped in that shit hole and because of that, ultravigilance, violence and misconduct is going to occur, furthering galvanizing the population against us. Not to mention, their government * IS * corrupt and illegitimate. We’d be better off just back off of the country, and just carpet bombing it with 500 lb bombs to keep any semblance of international anti-american insurrection from taking root.
[quote]Yeah. That’s a good solution.
Pay the Taliban to take out Al Qaeda. Then give money to the Northern Alliance to take out the Taliban. When Pakistan comes to the aid of the Taliban, start trying to get Iran to worry about the Sunni menace on its northern border. Give money to the Shia in Pakistan to start fighting the Taliban. Convince Iran they should help. Get out of India’s way if they decide to occupy Pakistan.
0 American troops dead.[/quote]
I’ve thought about this for sometime. When Iraq was boiling down into Civil War, we should have made that as much of an international Muslim Civil War as possible, and just turned all the muzzies to eating eachother alive, while we prospered and didn’t worry bout their bs.
[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
Yeah. That’s a good solution.
Pay the Taliban to take out Al Qaeda. Then give money to the Northern Alliance to take out the Taliban. When Pakistan comes to the aid of the Taliban, start trying to get Iran to worry about the Sunni menace on its northern border. Give money to the Shia in Pakistan to start fighting the Taliban. Convince Iran they should help. Get out of India’s way if they decide to occupy Pakistan.
0 American troops dead.
I’ve thought about this for sometime. When Iraq was boiling down into Civil War, we should have made that as much of an international Muslim Civil War as possible, and just turned all the muzzies to eating eachother alive, while we prospered and didn’t worry bout their bs.[/quote]
We may yet succeed at that, unwittingly. Iran may get the Sunnis into enough of a panic that they decide to do something about them. Meanwhile, we’ve created an artificial country out of Iraq that could easily split down Sunni/Shia lines. All we really need to do is pull out of there and it will happen on its own.
There have been huge Sunni/Shia wars in the past, despite lixy’s narrative of a poor, oppressed monolithic Islamic ummah.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
There have been huge Sunni/Shia wars in the past, despite lixy’s narrative of a poor, oppressed monolithic Islamic ummah. [/quote]
Yes.
and there was a major one I can recall which was credited in saving the West from domination by the Ottoman Empire.
an allegedly “poor oppressed monolithic Ismamic ummah” can be motivated by the Koran to “defensively” attack non-muslims and thus become an oppressor. That’s why these guys are always on the defensive. Even when they are attacking. That’s how they justify their terror and conquest.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I like the solution Eric Margolis came up with. Instead of sending troops, the US should have just paid the taliban to take out Al-Qaida.
[/quote]
Not sure it would have worked.
The Taliban was getting paid from Sunni Arab oil money.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
<<< All we really need to do is pull out of there and it will happen on its own. >>>[/quote]
This IS the conundrum of any of these Muslim influenced theaters.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
There have been huge Sunni/Shia wars in the past, despite lixy’s narrative of a poor, oppressed monolithic Islamic ummah.
Yes.
and there was a major one I can recall which was credited in saving the West from domination by the Ottoman Empire.
an allegedly “poor oppressed monolithic Ismamic ummah” can be motivated by the Koran to “defensively” attack non-muslims and thus become an oppressor. That’s why these guys are always on the defensive. Even when they are attacking. That’s how they justify their terror and conquest.[/quote]
Unlike a certain superpower that also always magically fighting the good fight?
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
â??We need schools!â?? one Afghan called back. â??Schools!â??
â??Weâ??re working on that,â?? McChrystal said. â??Those things take time.â??
McChrystal walked some more, engaging another group of Afghans. He posed the same question.
â??Security,â?? a man said. â??We need security. Security first, then the other things will be possible.â??
â??That is what we are trying to do,â?? McChrystal said. â??But itâ??s going to take time. Success takes time.â??
The questions kept coming, and the answer was the same. After a couple of hours, McChrystal put on his helmet and flak jacket, boarded the Black Hawk and flew to another town.
“These things take time!” Then he rode off into the sunset.
The Taliban provided both: schools and security. They were all jihadist madrassas, but schools nonetheless. And they stick around.
Time to pull out. [/quote]
Except for the fact that it if we pull out, it will only be a matter of time before the Taliban control Pakistan, and their nuclear weapons. Once that happens, how long do you think it will be before they start selling them to the highest bidder?
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
�¢??We need schools!�¢?? one Afghan called back. �¢??Schools!�¢??
�¢??We�¢??re working on that,�¢?? McChrystal said. �¢??Those things take time.�¢??
McChrystal walked some more, engaging another group of Afghans. He posed the same question.
�¢??Security,�¢?? a man said. �¢??We need security. Security first, then the other things will be possible.�¢??
�¢??That is what we are trying to do,�¢?? McChrystal said. �¢??But it�¢??s going to take time. Success takes time.�¢??
The questions kept coming, and the answer was the same. After a couple of hours, McChrystal put on his helmet and flak jacket, boarded the Black Hawk and flew to another town.
“These things take time!” Then he rode off into the sunset.
The Taliban provided both: schools and security. They were all jihadist madrassas, but schools nonetheless. And they stick around.
Time to pull out.
Except for the fact that it if we pull out, it will only be a matter of time before the Taliban control Pakistan, and their nuclear weapons. Once that happens, how long do you think it will be before they start selling them to the highest bidder?
[/quote]
The Taliban does control Pakistan. The ISI and the Taliban are BFFs.
If we wanted to prevent Pakistan from having nukes, we should have let India invade a long time ago.
Basically, an American city is going to get nuked eventually. We’ve not taken the Muslims seriously and tried to be their buddies instead of finding newer and better ways of killing off the most jihad-prone of them. We’ve also allowed them to move in right next door to us in many American cities. Bad move. We’ll definitely pay.
Reagan had it figured out: he had Iran and Iraq killing each other off in droves.