[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
sleeping on your side keeps the shoulder -impinged for several hours a night.
sleeping on your stomach - makes you turn your head to one side-
not exactly good for cranial or shoulder posture either
[/quote]
That’s some important stuff to consider too… Not just for heavier guys.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
RE: Waterbury’s strength standards.
When I read them initially I chalked it up to one of or a combo of the following:
1.) More theoretical than achieved goals
2.) Waterbury is REALLY good at getting people strong without putting weight on them and what he sees as reasonable but high level goals others see as crazy high
3.) The fiscal consideration that he is better off if people see themselves as “not strong enough” and in need of “coaching” regardless.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Ah,The Holy Strength Standards! :))
Do they really f****** matter??!!
I know some crazy strong wrestlers that ocassionaly quarter-squat a big weight,never deadlift,cheat-their-way-to -a-big-bench any way possible and are probably far away from this CWs numbers,but if I would have to fight any of them,I would make sure to bring a knife,an axe or a gun! ;))
They can use their power to slam you into the ground or put a bone-crushing squeeze like giant anaconda on you.So,does it really matter?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Not sure if I can get away with it man, e-mail me if you want to discuss it a bit. Nothing surprising or anything.
[/quote]
!
don’t sweat it, I see what you mean.
I love these fora precisely BECAUSE of the buzz and clash of opinions they create.
BTW, I completely forgot HOW much he rushed back since his 3xbw recommendation.
There’s a huge difference in telling a young martial artist to strive for 3xbw dead/squat in contrast to 2xbw.
I just wished he’d be a tad more open(read:sorry) about his inital idea being nonsense.
And I don’t think anyone must feel bad about dissing him.
Lots of stuff he wrote was and is very helpful -to me as a non-bodybuilder, at least- and he seems like a good looking, muscular dude working in a nice, well paid profession that he’s passionate about.
So I sleep fine.
He sure does.
Fighting Irish,
I agree with what the guys already wrote; it’s an extremely complex issue, the sheer volume, the way you (might ab)use your shoulders when not active are immense factors.
In spirit with the iron related forum stuff, I could only make wild guesses here:
When you row/pull, do you initiate from a slouched (internally rotated) and loose shoulder?
If so, I would ditch most rows and pullups, in favour of pendlay rows where you keep tight scapulae at all times.
You might want to start from blocks if you shoulder-slouch at the bottom.
That way you can move quite a bit of weight while the shoulder socket is stable.
With pullups I’d do only the last half, maybe even only a third.
Your back has to be hyperextended under the bar with tight glutes and bent knees.
If you google for pictures of “Gironda Pullups” you’ll find an illustration.
A nice (weighted) superset is, when done with good form: from the deadhang, pull yourself about an inch up using only the lower trapezius (which is hard to activate if never done before), arms are completely locked out the whole time.
After 10 (start with 5) reps switch to the aforementioned pullups to do another 5/10.
You abolutely smoke the trap pars descendens that way, through a very precise preexhaustion.
A strong lower trap can help the shoulder joint out quite a bit and is often overlooked.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Youre also doing pulling when throwing combinations.You are pulling your shoulder back when throwing a punch with other arm.The body is zig zaging.The WHOLE body.
The biomechanics of punching cant be simplified to correlate to something like weightlifting upper body pushing & pulling.[/quote]
That’s very true, I don’t disagree.
But the impact is only on one end - the pushing end. I’m not sure that pulling the arm back is giving the same amount of work that punching a 250 lb. bag 400 times is going to.
Like I said, I’m just trying to balance my strength as much as I can to prevent injury. My shoulders are in bad enough shape as it is haha.[/quote]
get elastic band,keep it with you and do a few sets of pull aparts a few times a day every day.
Good luck!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNkzPps4w1I
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[/quote] You don’t even need to bench in order to end up with shoulder issues like that… A lot of striking with nothing to balance it out (or just crappy pull-ups like so many do, i.e. shoulders rolling forward at the top and so on, no rhomboid/lower/mid trap/rear delt/ext. rotator training) will likely be enough after a while to cause chronic shoulder pain.
My dad treated most of the local boxers in our area as the only doc with experience in sports medicine left there…
[/quote]
Terrifically true.
How can I realistically expect to balance out my volume when I’m throwing 100 punches a round, for 10-15 rounds, 3-4 days a week?
It’s happening to me as well - I can see my arms turning in because of that kind of volume, and I’m doing everything I can to fight against it.
On my upper body days I’m mostly pulling, whether it’s band pullaparts, straight arm pulldowns, pullups, rows, or whatever.
The only pushing I ever do is a couple sets of military press or dumbbell bench, but nothing excessive and only one pushing movement per workout (compared with between 2 to 4 pulling movements.)
It’s not enough, but I’m trying.
[/quote]
Cephalic – The dude decided to get stronger on his own.
Irish – face pulls & ITYs like you mean it! Make sure that you get various planes of pulling, (except upright rows, which are useless) as well as modes – isometric is one that gets slighted too much and RDLs are a very good exercise for that. Deads are excellent too if you want (and have access to good coaching).
Finally, make sure that your rows aren’t screwing up your shoulders worse. A common problem, listed as 3 below, is illustrated in this video:
His problems?
(1) He needs to stay in neutral spine (so a broomstick can balance on your back, touching at butt, between shoulders and back of head)
(2) He gets back motion – no back motion of any sort allowed. If you must fire your obliques and lumbar muscles to move your arm, then you have no actual ability to row. In particular, momentum is a no-no in this lift.
(3) He pulls his elbow behind the body at the top. This is awful for MA!! The lats work only until the elbow is in line with the body, then the posterior delts take over. Having the delts fire moves the shoulder joint into a compromised position (it is actually starting to put a low grade shoulder lock on you) and will also make a lot of pressing type motions go wrong. (E.g. pull back for a punch, screw up shoulder mechanics, then punch = lowpower and a really sore shoulder.)
(4) Reps too high, timing sucks. Pull up fast, hold at the top for 3 seconds, slowly lower the weight for 3 seconds.
Remember that you don’t just need raw power to offset lots of punching/pressing, but endurance to keep everything in position too. Again, RDLs…
Hope this helps. I know I totally shouldn’t answer these when I caffeinate in the AM, so my apologies.
– jj
For what it’s worth…
Let’s not bad mouth any coaches, especially on a public forum. Let us instead (yes collectively if necessary) speak to him together, directly, or speak over PM especially if it’s just hearsay. I’m not going to go into a social media rant but lets just say that as martial artists each of us should exercise a little more discipline. I’m speaking about myself foremost of course, I believe I had some of the more negative things to say about CW when he transitioned to MMA coach (which was seemingly out of the blue). Still I respect that he retracted some of his statements and could admit that he was at least unclear (though I’m not sure he ever said he was wrong). I respect that he really undertook mma training himself to better understand things and he has continued to evolve his opinion. I used to post some really stupid shit 4-5 years ago and while I could get away with it in my workouts for various reasons (genetics, background, age, etc) if my change of perspective was more publicized I would be CRUCIFIED. We have to realize as a strength coach (and a prominent one who’s livelihood depends on aggressive self promotion) CW is under a fucking microscope so anything he says even haphazardly is just waiting for some keyboard warrior to vivisect. Right or wrong it really didn’t effect me very much. Hell I should let people spread misinformation so me, my team, and my friends get better lol. For example Martin Rooney seems to have changed a lot of how he works with his MMA athletes (especially after competing a lot more himself) but hasn’t faced nearly the same backlash. Anyway, I know that I owe Waterbury an apology for past comments so…
[i]
Dear Mr. Uncle Coach Waterbury,
I’m kind of a dick. I’m sorry.
-XN
[/i]
Moving along,
Jim Wendler made a post about 5/3/1 for MMA and had some excellent points.
[quote]I believe that in order for anyone to write intelligently about a subject, you have to have competed at the sport at a high level. I mean, if one?s program is that good, that amazing, then why didn?t the ?expert? use it himself for success?
[/quote]
Now I don’t believe that you need to be fucking Anderson Silva or GSP to be a viable coach. But for all of his marketing bullshit it would behoove you to pay more attention to say Lloyd Irvin than it would Jim Wendler. Yea holy fuck right? He’s worked with fighters at the highest level and I can say from personal knowledge that he is a goddamn GENIUS when it comes to data. I’m an economist by trade so I love stats and he collects them like a scientist. how many hrs are you going to do press days before the fight, hours of sleep to balance training with press? What kind of facilities are offered for you to cut weight? how much time will you have? will you have to share the room/sauna? Which round have armbars proven to be most effective? Which takedowns have the highest percentage after a staggering blow? do you know how many punches you throw per round? We increase our weights progressively, why don’t we increase our punch count? POWER punches thrown? When you get into the upper echelons (basically tier 2 and up UFC guys) that is when all that minutiae comes into play.
On the less detailed, but s&c specific end of things you have a martin rooney type coach. Not only a high level of s&c knowledge (and experience) but he also competes himself. He also often works out right along side some of his guys or will train some technique work with them. I’m sure he also has his own collections of stats and data… and more importantly personal anecdotal evidence.
This is very important.
Coaching someone after you are a REGULAR competitor (not just once or twice) gives you an entirely different perspective than being the 3x a week bjj guy. Training day in, day out for YEARS; Peaking for competition; common injuries; misconceptions; structural weaknesses (tall v short, limb length, etc). There is so much that you can only learn from DOING, especially in a sport like mma. There’s a reason coaches like dave tate, dan john, jim wendler, broz, dante/dogcrapp, etc get so much respect and it’s because they did it or experimented on themselves with success. I think there is a mental edge for the client knowing that his coach walked the path before him. A casual participant only gains a glance in the window. I don’t think you really grasp needs until you’ve experienced those needs for yourself… It is necessary to hear the same inner voices and battle the same demons.
[quote]You are in the weight room to get stronger, NOT to mimic another practice. Every time I see someone prescribing conditioning circuits for MMA strength training, I breathe a sigh of relief. As long as this person is deemed an expert, I will always have a job. Feel free to do your battling ropes and burpees AFTER you strength train.
[/quote]
Circuits have a place but NOT in strength training. And essentially they’re designed to mimic or exceed your intensity in a real combat situation. Why not just train IN A REAL COMBAT SITUATION??? Now go get your fucking gloves/shinebox… Kidding. There is a place for it. Just like there is a place for L.S.D running. I’m not of the opinion that we should just ditch it. I think that is getting spread around the s&c community now (and is part of an anti crossfit type backlash too) but complexes have a lot of value for mma athletes, but I think they’ve been over exploited as the answer to EVERYTHING.
Random smattering of thoughts:
Stick to the basic couple of motions that won’t endanger your structural health. The moment something may endanger your structural health (and I don’t care if it’s pistol squats or 1 arm bosu ball curls) basically you need to ditch it and find an alternative till you fix that problem.
As far as working on balancing the shoulder girdle you guys really covered it. I’ll just add from my experience that I like band pull aparts, high face pulls with retraction (kinda neutral chinup grip and external shoulder rotation), strict curls (seriously, but like back against a wall strict), shoulder dislocates, rear delt raises (you can throw them in between sets of anything), and surprisingly rowing/ergometer…
I think the pendlay row is an awesome movement, but for the purpose of injury prevention you need a ton of volume. Pendlay rows are definitely designed to improve your strength (also very important), but if you’re not even engaging your rear delts the movement can exacerbate the problem (imo). Which is part of why I like the rower (mentioned above) because you can get a good amount of ‘pulling’ volume in the horizontal plane. You can pull to your face or pull with a rope attached too (I just attached a rope around to it with a carabiner I don’t think you’re supposed to do that :-p)
excellent point about how you sleep and non exercise activities in general. I used to sleep with a very heavy blanket till I noticed that I’d sleep with my legs twisted to accustom myself to the weight. It would only get worse if I slept on my stomach, and a pillow would just cause me to arch my back. So I took some very concerted efforts to learn how to sleep on my back and with a light blanket. Now my ankles aren’t flexed and my calves don’t hurt as much. etc. I know it has improved my thoracic flexibility and I don’t slump as much anymore so that definitely means there was something going on with my shoulders. I’m working on improving how I sit at work and such. I make sure I stretch my hip flexors and do a lot more glute/hip activation drills throughout the day. Gotta love when someone walks in and you’re doing fire hydrants in slacks…
For as technique oriented as MMA is… it is far closer to ballet or dance than it is to weight lifting or other strength sports. We’ve talked about this before but the kinematics are pretty ridiculous just for a nice proper low thai kick, very much less a high one. Or a right cross. Shit a good strong jab must be even more ridiculous. Ive yet to see a fucking axe kick examined. The hip activation in a butterfly sweep or elevator sweep must be insane. There’s a ton of data out there that we don’t have… to reduce MULTIPLE FIGHT SPORTS to a matter of “bench this, deadlift that” is a bit insulting. Most coaches can’t even agree that the NFL combine is a good enough standard/assessment for players and that has decades of information and analysis behind it. Fighting is insanely complex. You guys touched on a lot of it, the acceleration punching, the shock effect to your structure of hitting something, recoil, and that is purely offense. So to define MMA so rigidly you have to ask yourself the same questions with other sports…
How much do you need to bench to hit a 90mph fast ball?
How much do you need to Squat to overhand serve 100mph?
How much should I deadlift to complete a triple luxe?
How many reps should you be able to overhead squat your body weight to hit a 3 pointer?
My favorite example here is that Melvin Guillard got subbed by Joe Lauzon. Keep in mind that Melvin is a bad motherfucker. Great wrestler, serious knockout power. Melvin also supposedly benches 315 for reps cold (according to Rashad Evans- pretty reputable source). Joe a couple years ago in an interview mentioned he couldn’t even bench 135. Joe also knocked out Jens Pulver. #coolcoolcool
Naturally WE ALL want to push our opponents energy systems to nill, and WE ALL want to scare people with how effortless we can control or hit them. But we should be able to fall back on the soundness of our technique and not just our athletic attributes because one day we will find someone stronger, faster, bigger… but Royce Gracie already proved in the biggest lab of them all that a high enough level of technique CAN overcome even the toughest opponents.
We have to become more efficient guys. In our fighting, in our lifting, in our training, and imo in our lives (believe me there is a lot of crossover).
The “get a bigger gas tank” analogy is often used by strength and conditioning coaches to sell products… How about we change it up… You’re both going to be the same size engine/weight, so why are you trying to get a bigger gas tank? That is really just added weight. Why not improve your gas mileage as well? THEN your bigger tank means a LOT more.
Fantastic post Xen Nova. I am glad to see you back here.
I would only add
RE: Rowing machines for shoulder health/volume. Seated rowing or ergo bikes are bad juju if you are dealing with/are disposed to disc injury or vertebral end plate injury in the spine and especially in the low back.
Basically anyone who thinks spinal extension feels great (McKenzie for the medical set, Cobra for the Yoga crew, etc.) may need to tread careful, especially in the mornings. Granted that population will likely get selected out of high level MMA/combat sports competition due to injury.
IN THE INTEREST OF COMEDY
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Just like there is a place for L.S.D running. I’m not of the opinion that we should just ditch it.[/quote]
WHAT
THE
HELL
I know you are one of Bravo’s people so I get you may have a more flexible view on weed for fighters, but suggesting people drop acid and go for a jog is just cruel. Sure, you can go an extra mile when you think giant spider snakes who talk like Rush Limbaugh are trying to eat you, but what about traffic?
What’s next Salvia and thai pad drills?
Are you only in it for the youtube videos?
Damn it man, think of the children.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
IN THE INTEREST OF COMEDY
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Just like there is a place for L.S.D running. I’m not of the opinion that we should just ditch it.[/quote]
WHAT
THE
HELL
I know you are one of Bravo’s people so I get you may have a more flexible view on weed for fighters, but suggesting people drop acid and go for a jog is just cruel. Sure, you can go an extra mile when you think giant spider snakes who talk like Rush Limbaugh are trying to eat you, but what about traffic?
What’s next Salvia and thai pad drills?
Are you only in it for the youtube videos?
Damn it man, think of the children.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
The most interesting man in the world: “Running in place will never get you the same results as running from a lion.”
[quote]SKELAC wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
RE: Waterbury’s strength standards.
When I read them initially I chalked it up to one of or a combo of the following:
1.) More theoretical than achieved goals
2.) Waterbury is REALLY good at getting people strong without putting weight on them and what he sees as reasonable but high level goals others see as crazy high
3.) The fiscal consideration that he is better off if people see themselves as “not strong enough” and in need of “coaching” regardless.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Ah,The Holy Strength Standards! :))
Do they really f****** matter??!!
I know some crazy strong wrestlers that ocassionaly quarter-squat a big weight,never deadlift,cheat-their-way-to -a-big-bench any way possible and are probably far away from this CWs numbers,but if I would have to fight any of them,I would make sure to bring a knife,an axe or a gun! ;))
They can use their power to slam you into the ground or put a bone-crushing squeeze like giant anaconda on you.So,does it really matter?[/quote]
Precisely. There’s no way he really believes in those standards. I wonder what Ali’s deadlift max was, lol.
Here are some numbers I know off watching UFC promos and training vids:
-Joe Lauzon couldn’t bench his own BW for years when he started. He probably still can’t. His second last fight he KD’ed Melvin Guillard. Rashad Evans has gone on record saying he saw Melvin bench 315x10 cold… could be a lie, but regardless, doesn’t stop you getting KD’ed and choked out every other fight.
-BJ Penn has trouble squatting ONE plate. He DB benches the 50s (Both were back when he fought GSP, pre-Marinovich-jumping-out-of-pool).
-GSP power snatches about 180lbs. He benches 200 for one rep comfortably. Back when he was with Jon Chaimberg (post-Serra loss), Chaimberg talked about how he couldn’t do eight proper pullups. Of course, he eventually worked up to be quite a beast in the weight room (100x3 chinup, DB bench 100sx3).
-Dan Hardy trap-bar deadlifts 405lbs at a BW of 190. He used the high handle.
-Rampage does speed deadlifts with 265 plus chains.
-Shogun has trouble deadlifting 140kg/315lbs. Rounded back.
-Jon Jones trains deadlifts with 265lbs. He gets the reps about as easily as I do, so I’m guessing he maxes out at 405 or so. He walks around at 230.
BJJ examples:
-Caio Terra… doesn’t lift… at all. He doesn’t even run.
-Marcello Garcia doesn’t lift at all.
-Braulio Estima works up to a mind boggling 225 in the squat.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
WHAT
THE
HELL
I know you are one of Bravo’s people so I get you may have a more flexible view on weed for fighters, but suggesting people drop acid and go for a jog is just cruel. Sure, you can go an extra mile when you think giant spider snakes who talk like Rush Limbaugh are trying to eat you, but what about traffic?
What’s next Salvia and thai pad drills?
Are you only in it for the youtube videos?
Damn it man, think of the children.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Well I was on netflix and came across (not literally mind you) a documentary entitled “Crank”. The gentleman under review happened to experiment with various nootropics and stimulants in an effort to keep his heart going. After many experiments… Crack, Weed, Meth, PCP, Shrooms, I found the best running ‘aid’ happened to be good ol lucy in the sky with diamonds.
Joey “coco” Diaz told me, “If it’s 2 in the afternoon and you aint high, go fuck yourself! I want you around me like I want cancer in my ballsack!”
I’m not sure how that’s relevant to this discussion but…
wait
pause for the cause
sound of bubbles
anyway what I was saying is that I like to run in 3-d
Reference: Dock Ellis - Wikipedia
Xen Nova is more winning than Charlie Sheen.
That is all.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
COME RUN WITH ME<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[/quote]
Psychedelic drug legalization, and marijuana legalization in particular, is the major human rights challenge facing my generation. War 10th Plantet!
Xen,
surely it’s not a good idea to just badmouth a coach.
However, ‘Whelanj’ specifically asked for what this one coach recommended as “target weights”.
Curiously enough, this one coach had a target weight in mind.
And there goes that little dispute.
My martial background (mainly striking arts) is different to a lot of users here in so far that weights were like antimatter - completely exotic stuff.
According to senior athletes, Bodybuilders used them to pump their useless, steroid fed muscles as well as their tiny egos. Sure, some guys like pro judo players used them too, but won’t a well placed strike always nullify any muscly advantage?
?
"Pushups give you power, not benchpress; deadlifts will kill your back, but if you do them you should do them “wrong” by rounding your back…;
If I look back, the sheer amount of idiocies and downright hostility towards the good weights I encountered in Germany is just astounding.
There are no broad-shouldered quarterbacks banging the prettiest maid in highschool, there is no equivalent to “how much you bench?”.
Through the internet, this had changed, of course.
Still, I hear the old myths all the time.
No matter how one looks at it, a modern man playing with weights will often experience an significant rise in
strength all around. Bodybuilders call that newbie gains.
If you rise early to work in the fields, chop firewood at noon and throw javelins at invading vikings in the afternoon, this principle might not work for you.
It may be that you, Xen, correct me if I’m wrong, are so used to most athletes around you being in top shape (doesn’t have to include weights) that this aspect of weights is seen too critical by you, probably BECAUSE of guys who throw around HUGE numbers.
So perhaps this is the other side of the extreme, overexposure to weights as a tool.
Maybe a guy like Lauzon is just that, a maverick and a guy like Guillard is just too much in love with the iron?
My martial background definitely suffered because of an overly hostile attitude towards wights.
Yes, I’ll say it: I wish I’d have enjoyed at least a brief exposure with just a simple barbell +100kg in my late teens. T’would have been for the better.
Wrapping it up:
So if some random german martial artist dude asks me if he should lift at all, I’ll tell: why not?
And if some random internet dude asks if he should deadlift triple his bw - I lol
And I don’t feel bad.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
If you rise early to work in the fields, chop firewood at noon and throw javelins at invading vikings in the afternoon, this principle might not work for you.
[/quote]
So that’s why I never really gain a lot of mass huh?
Great post otherwise.
[quote]Whelanj wrote:
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
COME RUN WITH ME<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[/quote]
Psychedelic drug legalization, and marijuana legalization in particular, is the major human rights challenge facing my generation. War 10th Plantet![/quote]
Well I don’t know that I’d go that far, but it is a pretty silly prohibition. Especially considering that alcohol and tobacco are easily as physically and/or psychologically damaging and cause exponentially more fatalities on a yearly basis, yet are both legal.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Whelanj wrote:
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
COME RUN WITH ME<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[/quote]
Psychedelic drug legalization, and marijuana legalization in particular, is the major human rights challenge facing my generation. War 10th Plantet![/quote]
Well I don’t know that I’d go that far, but it is a pretty silly prohibition. Especially considering that alcohol and tobacco are easily as physically and/or psychologically damaging and cause exponentially more fatalities on a yearly basis, yet are both legal.[/quote]
I hate this line of argument, because it concedes the point that the government may tell you what you may and may not put into your body. A free person should be allowed to poison themselves if they so desire, and therefore it shouldn’t matter whether caffeine, alcohol, and tobacco are better worse, or just different than other drugs.
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Whelanj wrote:
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
COME RUN WITH ME<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[/quote]
Psychedelic drug legalization, and marijuana legalization in particular, is the major human rights challenge facing my generation. War 10th Plantet![/quote]
Well I don’t know that I’d go that far, but it is a pretty silly prohibition. Especially considering that alcohol and tobacco are easily as physically and/or psychologically damaging and cause exponentially more fatalities on a yearly basis, yet are both legal.[/quote]
I hate this line of argument, because it concedes the point that the government may tell you what you may and may not put into your body. A free person should be allowed to poison themselves if they so desire, and therefore it shouldn’t matter whether caffeine, alcohol, and tobacco are better worse, or just different than other drugs.
[/quote]
Thus the human rights aspect. Most of the people in our jails are there illegitimately based on the fact that our government has assumed a power that it shouldn’t have. These laws also ban the mental states that can only be reached by using these drugs. A ban on mind expanding drugs is a ban on thought.
I would hardly call most of these drugs “mind expanding.” But again, that’s not the point. So long as we hold the person responsible for what they do while on the drug, or to get the drug, there is no reason to forbid the use of the drug.
Same goes for performance enhancers. So long as you’re not breaking the rules of an organization in which you compete, why not allow them and allow companies to research newer and better ones explicitly for performance enhancement. We can even have new “unlimited leagues” to test them out.
