[quote]Destrength wrote:
Is that your knees I hear popping in the first three reps?[/quote]
Yeah I think so lol
I know you don’t know me, but just wanted to offer a piece of constructive criticism. I think it would really benefit you, and your movement patterns to add some muscle. It seems like you really struggle to handle the weights you’re trying to use. No offense, but your not ready to use the weights you’re using. From watching the majority of your videos, more times than not, the intended musculature is not what’s effectively moving the weight. Probably another reason why your not adding muscle to your frame. Can you honestly say you’ve added appreciable lean mass to your frame over the last 24 months?
Put hard work in the 6-12 rep range, building strength there. Focus on using the right musculature.
Don’t spin your wheels like this. I did through a period in my life, and wish I had known to deload back and reset my mental focus and physical effort on proper weights. Don’t progress for the sake of progressing, while leaving technical in the dust. You seem very smart and dedicated. Hope this is not taken negatively.
IronOne
I agree completely. It seems like you’ve been training heavy for too long. Id day take some time to back down in weight, get some quality volume in higher rep range and build some muscle. If I were you, especially since you are pretty lean, coming off a diet and (I assume) want to put on strength in the long term, for a while id not to mess with range of, motion bands, rest pause or other ways to increase testing strength intermittently. Think big muscles will move big weights using good form
Maybe try something like this
Day 1
Squats 3x8-12
Paused squats 3x10-12
Front squats 3x8-10
Hip hinge move (RDL perhaps) 3x10-12
Calfs/abs glute work
Day 2
Bench 3x8-12
Paused bench (minimal arch) 3x8-12
row variation 3x8-12
Dumbbell or barbell Skull crushers 3x12-15
Rear delt/ scapular retraction work (banded Facepulls and rear delt raises maybe)
Bicep move 10-12
Day 3
Sumo deadlift 3x8 (I know high rep deadlifts get a bad rap but I’ve find them not to be so bad. Keep slow and controlled and you should be fine)
Straight leg deadlift (focus on glute squeeze and slow eccentric) 3x8-12
Lunges or Bulgarians 3x10-12
Barbell Hip thrusts 3x12-15 (I remember you saying your hips are weak)
Calf abs glute work
Day 4
Chinups 3x8-12
Chinups (different grip) 3x8-10
row variation 3x10-12
Tricep movement 3x12-15
Bicep movement 3x10-12
Rear delt raises/ scapular retraction work)
Happy 4th!
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]Destrength wrote:
Is that your knees I hear popping in the first three reps?[/quote]
Yeah I think so lol[/quote]
I used to get that too, I am not sure what entirely happened to stop it. You should see a doctor if it continues or gets worse/painful. Popping/clicking is not exactly a good sign, especially if there is pain.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but you are going to want to drop the weight down to like 185 to 205 pounds (depending on how weak your high bar is compared to your low bar) and start busting out sets of eight. You’re putting in great effort and all, but that is an assistance exercise, correct? It assists the main lift. I assume you are doing this to ingrain being upright and work on your quads. Am I right in assuming that? Then maybe humor me and try it with less weight and tell me how you feel after.
I did the same exact thing with assistance/accessory work on the lower body until I tried the cube method in which percentages were outlined on some of the assistance work. I was like “Huh, this seems too light, but I’ll go ahead and see how it goes”, and they were literally the most effective high bar squats I’ve ever done for my legs.
Instead of feeling burnt out/my torso feeling tired my legs burnt and felt used, and in my opinion I got much more beneficial work out of light weight than if I threw another 40-50 pounds on the bar which I definitely could’ve done at that rep range. I was always of the train of thought “More weight for same reps=better in every single situation as long as the form isn’t shit”, and that got me decently far, but I felt a definite improvement in my joint health and progress from realizing that you should be going at a weight with assistance exercises in which you can hit the prescribed reps with piston like form while leaving some in the tank.
Doing what you are doing on assistance work is good for AMRAP (think the 350 method where you try to hit a certain amount of reps as few sets as possible, or 5/3/1’s top sets where you do one all out moderately heavy set) sets and maximal sets (think heavy weight, grinding and trying to set weight PR’s between 1-5 reps for main lifts), but not so much for assistance where you want to build muscle or work on a movement pattern.
I am being a little officious with giving that advice, but some other people were mentioning it, and I was noticing for awhile too that you were going too heavy for assistance work for it to properly assist. And of course as always, I am a good bit stronger and more experienced than you, but you have plenty of resources and people to choose from to listen to, I am not Dave Tate, Louie Simmons, or anyone like that so it is not guaranteed that what I say is correct so you’ll want to use your good sense on advice.
Just trying to help,
DSSG.
Ok lots of responses here
IronOne: Thanks for stopping by. I actually have adding some LBM I think in the last 24 months, I’m the heaviest and leanest I’ve ever been. I know what you’re saying though. And it’s probably not helping I just got off of a cut, and am just now getting back up to maintenance calories and am trying to remain pretty lean for the summer.
Sam: Yeah I understand what you mean, and I like the routine, but honestly I like doing the big lifts multiple times a week. 1x a week isn’t something I’ll probably never do.
DSSG: No pain in the knee, they’ve always done that since I was a kid, pop pretty much every time I Squat down or even sit in a chair. I actually did a set of 10 before with 185 before I did the sets with 225 lol. But they didn’t feel difficult. I honestly thought the 225 looked and felt good. Today my quads and glutes are really sore, and I honestly thought those were good Squats lol
But you’re right on the assistance stuff, I have been going heavy, but I really haven’t had a plan, just playing it by ear. I guess I need to figure something out, which usually means I’ll just go back to Big Beyond Belief or a Coan Routine. I appreciate everyone’s input, truly.
Also, took the day off today, only got a few hours of sleep and had a long day of work. These next 2 or so weeks will be hectic so just going to try and make sure I continue my DL routine and otherwise not stress about it.
I thought your squats at 225 looked great as well. I was impressed with the improvement and it really did look like you were fighting to keep your knees open and hips loaded (especially during the bottom/pause).
I forgot to reply about your comment on dropping the good mornings and keeping in block pulls. That seems fine since I only recommended the GMs to reinforce thoracic extension at the top of the lift regardless of whether you did normal or rounded back good mornings. Front squats and heavy block pulls have helped me increase strength in my thoracic erectors the fastest. I do think the heavy block pulls are important and it’s good that you’re deciding to keep them in. They looked solid when you started off and you just have to remember to keep your hips loaded and knees out instead of turning them into conventional as you increase the ROM. You’ll be fine. Just auto-regulate based on your hip strength whenever you change volume/intensity or ROM. IMO, the first priority is loading your hips and thrusting your hips forward regardless of what program you follow, how heavy you go or what movements you choose.
I’m just going to chime in briefly on those size suggestions: I agree, it probably would help you to get a bit bigger. You’ll need to figure out how best to do it, and I’d recommend being prepared to go out of your comfort zone.
For what its worth, this is what has worked for me so far:
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don’t be too picky about your food intake as long as it isn’t junk. Just eat a bunch, especialy rice, meat and potatoes. I eat a bunch of Quest bars too and I go through a fair bit of milk.
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take blocks of two or three rest days every week and train in blocks of two or three. If you’re worried about fat gain, intermitten fasting on some of the rest days has worked for me.
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don’t lift heavy all the time. Regularly work in the 60-70% range because you’ll be able to get out more reps and still recover well. A nice thing that worked for me was 5 sets of 5 and a sixth of AMRAP.
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pick a small-ish number of exercises that will make you grow and use them as your assistance work if they aren’t main lifts. Obviously they’ll be different for each person but for me they have been:
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wide stance low bar squats (I know with your hip issues that may just have to be a bit wider)at varying loads
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paused front squats at around 80%
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heavy box squats at about parallel or just below
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Kroc rows
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dumbbell press variations
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conventional pulls off the floor
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hack squats on the machine
I’m just basing this of my own experience going from around 187 lbs in January to around 206 lbs now, with pretty much zero change in bodyfat levels from what I can tell.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
DSSG: No pain in the knee, they’ve always done that since I was a kid, pop pretty much every time I Squat down or even sit in a chair. I actually did a set of 10 before with 185 before I did the sets with 225 lol. But they didn’t feel difficult. I honestly thought the 225 looked and felt good. Today my quads and glutes are really sore, and I honestly thought those were good Squats lol
But you’re right on the assistance stuff, I have been going heavy, but I really haven’t had a plan, just playing it by ear. I guess I need to figure something out, which usually means I’ll just go back to Big Beyond Belief or a Coan Routine. I appreciate everyone’s input, truly.
Also, took the day off today, only got a few hours of sleep and had a long day of work. These next 2 or so weeks will be hectic so just going to try and make sure I continue my DL routine and otherwise not stress about it. [/quote]
Dunno, maybe I was going too extreme? The squat form wasn’t bad (very good form compared to a lot of your squats), I was just emphasizing quality>quantity.
Also good to hear about the knees, it is probably just something weird with how your knees are built/work that makes it pop. If you’ve never felt pain and doctors have never found any problems with it then you are probably fine.
To be honest, I think this is all a bit negative; the lack of hypertrophy / mass “issue” is simply down to diet and priorities, it’s not like you don’t train hard and often. If you gain 10, 20, 30…lbs, of course your lifts will go up, but do you really need to train with “lighter” weights to do this? I don’t think so.
There is a place for specific hypertrophy / bodybuilding training, and some extra machine volume for your upper back and hamstrings etc. wouldn’t be a bad idea when you train in a gym (I think you said you would be at some point?), but really you’ve got everything down to enough of an extent to cause serious growth if you eat plenty.
If you’d like another suggestion for a basic setup training wise for when you’ve finished the Coan DL, here’s a routine I suggested as a starting point for someone I know who’s in a similar position (albeit without the height / long limb issue); he’s gaining mass very quickly at the moment, and making great progress:
1.) [MONDAY]
Superset-
Squat: 5/4/3/2/1
Bench: 5/4/3/2/1
Accessory Work for hamstrings, upper back, and biceps optional
2.) [WEDNESDAY]
Superset-
Overhead Press: 5/4/3/2/1
Deadlift: 5/4/3/2/1
Accessory Work for arms, hamstrings, and upper back optional
3.) [FRIDAY]
Squat: 10/8/6/15-20 (AMRAP on last set)
Leg Ext.: 5x10
Leg Curl: 5x10
Leg Press: 1 set of 50, rest-pause
4.) [SATURDAY]
Bench: 10/8/6/15-20
Machine or Cable Rows: 5x10
Pullups: (weighted if possible): 5x6
Incline Bench (DB or BB, no lockout on reps in same cluster): 1 set of 50, rest-pause
CONDITIONING:
Days 1.) and 2.)-
(Before Session): 1000m Row for time
(After Session): 4 rounds of [2 mins run, 20 pushups, 20 KB Goblet Squats, 30 secs Plank], no rest
Day 3.)-
(Before Session): 15 mins on stationary bike; sprints if feeling good, steady state if not
Day 4.)-
(Before Session): 5 rounds of [30 secs Plank, 20 secs side plank, 20 secs other side, 10 single-leg glute raises (each, alternating)]
Weights on 5/4/3/2/1 days are based on your performance on that day, but the aim is to add weight most weeks over a 6-8 week training cycle. Aim for roughly 80%, 82%, 85%, 90%, 93%.
On 10/8/6/15-20 days, focus on muscle contraction and control over weight, but still add weight whenever you can without losing this. Stick with the same weight for the final set, and aim for a rep record each week. Aim for roughly 60%, 70%, 75%, 50%, and consider using a high-bar stance or SSB for this day if you feel your legs get more work like this.
Just something to think about / take ideas from.
Thanks for all the input and help guys, seriously.
Lift 206: Yeah I’m going to try and just start the block pulls with something very light, like 405, and go from there. Last time I got caught up in rep PR’s with them, but I need to make sure I’m using them to teach myself how to wedge into position and get my hip stronger
MarkKO: Thanks for the advice. I’ve actually been a good deal heavier before, but one I hit 210+ it’s always very sloppy. I’m not afraid to gain weight, I just never seem to get a lot of strength gains from doing so. I think I need to treat my weight gain like I need to treat my strength gains… slow and steady, and not trying to force it. In regards to the other advice, I completely agree, and I’m going to try and narrow my exercise selection to fewer lifts that I know benefit my weaknesses. I still enjoy bodybuilding and that’s been how I’ve trained most my lifting career, so I tend to add more exercises/volume over time and end up making my small sessions into long, BB-ing style pump stuff that is probably a lot of ‘fluff’.
Des: I’ll definitely try and keep the ‘quality > quantity’ mentality, while still making sure I’m not being passive and still pushing myself to hit PR’s.
Halcj: Thank you a ton dude, I actually really really like that program. I probably wouldn’t be able to do the supersets, but overall I like the style. MarkKO and a few others have mentioned the Bench/Squat, OHP/DL day set-up, and I’ve always wanted to try it, so something like this is definitely the direction I think I’ll head. Thank again
Thanks for all the input and help guys, seriously.
Lift 206: Yeah I’m going to try and just start the block pulls with something very light, like 405, and go from there. Last time I got caught up in rep PR’s with them, but I need to make sure I’m using them to teach myself how to wedge into position and get my hip stronger
MarkKO: Thanks for the advice. I’ve actually been a good deal heavier before, but one I hit 210+ it’s always very sloppy. I’m not afraid to gain weight, I just never seem to get a lot of strength gains from doing so. I think I need to treat my weight gain like I need to treat my strength gains… slow and steady, and not trying to force it. In regards to the other advice, I completely agree, and I’m going to try and narrow my exercise selection to fewer lifts that I know benefit my weaknesses. I still enjoy bodybuilding and that’s been how I’ve trained most my lifting career, so I tend to add more exercises/volume over time and end up making my small sessions into long, BB-ing style pump stuff that is probably a lot of ‘fluff’.
Des: I’ll definitely try and keep the ‘quality > quantity’ mentality, while still making sure I’m not being passive and still pushing myself to hit PR’s.
Halcj: Thank you a ton dude, I actually really really like that program. I probably wouldn’t be able to do the supersets, but overall I like the style. MarkKO and a few others have mentioned the Bench/Squat, OHP/DL day set-up, and I’ve always wanted to try it, so something like this is definitely the direction I think I’ll head. Thank again
So took a note from halcj and MarkKO, tried a Bench/Squat workout. And fuck me that was hard, never really done two ‘main’ movements in a session like that for upper AND lower body
Flat Bench: Pretty solid.
170x3x10
Paused Wide Grip:
135x3x10
High Bar Squats: These were tough pretty solid IMO. All beltless
225x3x8
Then Chins and Curls
Kind of took everyone’s advice today, did some higher rep stuff, just because I was feeling a bit beat up and next few weeks will be hectic and idk when I’ll lift and when I won’t. I really liked this workout though, felt very strong, but definitely felt a bit unconditioned.
I’m liking the high bar narrow Squats right now. When weights get heavier it could be an issue, but right now it feels easier when thinking of cues for my hips and knees. And honestly if I get it stronger I doubt it’ll ever hurt my lower bar position.
Man that looks great. Keep it up!
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
So took a note from halcj and MarkKO, tried a Bench/Squat workout. And fuck me that was hard, never really done two ‘main’ movements in a session like that for upper AND lower body
Flat Bench: Pretty solid.
170x3x10
Paused Wide Grip:
135x3x10
High Bar Squats: These were tough pretty solid IMO. All beltless
225x3x8
Then Chins and Curls
Kind of took everyone’s advice today, did some higher rep stuff, just because I was feeling a bit beat up and next few weeks will be hectic and idk when I’ll lift and when I won’t. I really liked this workout though, felt very strong, but definitely felt a bit unconditioned.
I’m liking the high bar narrow Squats right now. When weights get heavier it could be an issue, but right now it feels easier when thinking of cues for my hips and knees. And honestly if I get it stronger I doubt it’ll ever hurt my lower bar position. [/quote]
Your squats look good, man, that is pretty much what a high bar squat is supposed to look like. You have some stronk rest pause going on there, was it your last set? lol
Lift206: Thanks man, I really appreciate it. Hopefully in the next few months I can get back to my old weights with low bar, only with a better executed high bar. lol
Des: Appreciate it. I try not to rest-pause, but you’ll notice in my other videos I usually have some decent reps in the beginning and they get worse and worse. So after the first few reps, I was trying to not do what I usually do, and just dive bomb when I’m fatigued and muscle back up. I tried to stop, take a few breathes, make sure I was tight, then execute the next rep. I’m not sure if it’s ideal, but I think it’ll get better once I add a belt and don’t have to be quite as deliberate with my breathing.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
So after the first few reps, I was trying to not do what I usually do, and just dive bomb when I’m fatigued and muscle back up. I tried to stop, take a few breathes, make sure I was tight, then execute the next rep.[/quote]
IMO, it’s better to focus on the execution regardless of anything else. I think your low bar should improve in a few months as well. Good to see progress.
I am currently taking it easier on the heavy stuff as well. I look the same if not fuller in the chest region. Legs will get less hard looking but that’s expected. They tend to react better to heavier loads. But yeah I firmly believe in getting in higher reps for filling out larger frames or getting muscle to grow in general. I learned a lesson the other day in the gym, my body does not know the amount of weight on the bar it just knows to lift it from point a to point b repeat, the ego knows the numbers and has to be set on the back burner for a bit until I get some more meat on my frame.
Jlabs: Yeah, I’ve actually grown the most when doing higher reps, so I need to make sure I mix that in with some heavier stuff. Legs actually used to be a lot bigger when I did high rep squatting like 2-3x a week. lol Plus even just doing it for the last few days has me feeling way less beat up lol
Did another kind of total body thing
OHP: Ok so I hate these and always get injured doing them, but I’m going to start light and really give it a go. I’m pretty sure I just have shit shoulder stability but I’m willing to give it one more shot, seeing as HeavyTriple has shit shoulders and still like OHP’s 225 for reps lol
90x3x10
DB Seated Presses: Much harder after OHPing lol
40’sx2x12-15
Front Squats: I may not be going low enough to really hit the musculature I want, but I felt like I was staying upright and keeping my hips under the bar. Was obviously a bit fatigued from yesterday so went light
175x3x8
Tricep Extensions and Rear Delt Flies
Good quick workout, just trying to make sure I hit some big movements this week and don’t lose my groove.
Squat/Bench is an awesome combo. You’ve got a winner there…you can change up the variations too. I’ve been thinking about doing close variations during my hypertrophy phase, then comp style for strength phase. I’m 3x per week right now, and plan to continue to push frequency further.
So I noticed on your last bench day, you followed bench with WGBP.
Then I noticed after OHP, you did seated DB Press.
I’m sure you can achieve better training economy with dips, chins, rows…etc.
All this body part split stuff people do kinda baffles me. Why do splits, when you can effectively do full body, high intensity + assistance to hit the nuances without overtraining? Of course, + Plazma.
Those high bars are looking nice, good work! I reckon you’ll have some good results with total body/multiple main lift sessions. It does wreck you a bit, but pretty quickly your body adapts as long as you recover.