Spidey: Eudaimonia

Training Training Logs
561

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Thinking of good mornings like RDLs with the bar on your back. You’re going to be pushing your butt out pretty far and really loading the hamstrings. It’s not going to take a lot of weight to create an effect.

Most likely, when they feel like shitty squats, they weight is probably too heavy. There can still be some value there, but it’s not the normally intended effect for them.[/quote]

Okay so I should feel them in my hams more so then my mid/lower back? I always thought them as a ‘back’ lift, and RDL more for hams, but I guess that makes sense. [/quote]

They have a reputation as a back lift, but yeah, they should be hitting the hamstrings and glutes. If you watch someone performing a decent set of RDLs and Good mornings, they’re going to look very similar in terms of the body’s movement, it’s just the placement of the weight that differs.

Now, if you go super heavy on them, they’ll quickly become a back movement, but the topic then becomes if that’s really all that productive. Dave Tate talked about the “chaos training” benefit of such a movement, and Westside was big on them for a while (to the point that 80% of their ME work was some sort of good morning variant) but the pendulum has swung away from that for a bit.

Truthfully, good mornings are one of those movements that my brain tells me is very good but I can’t ever fit into a program.

562

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thanks so much Sam, man I would have never noticed the hip pop thing being the issue, I’ll definitely ditch it this next session. You may have just saved me a lot of time haha

MarkKO, yeah I think you’re right. I’ll be honest, I may be stronger at Conventional, seeing as I can get 405 from a deficit after Squats pretty easy, so I do probably treat Sumo like conventional. I do intentionally round my upper back, but I think I need to round it, not do the hip pop thing, almost ‘fall back’ behind the bar, and not get jostled the bar doesn’t immediately fall fly off the floor lol. \

I halfway think my Sumo will end up being like what High Bar Squats is for Low Bar Squatters, like it maybe something I can train and end up helping my ‘stronger’ style. Idk yet though. [/quote]

Absolutely. I’m so glad I started pulling sumo, the carryover to my conventional has been huge. Mostly it is in terms of making my lockout stronger and snappier, but also mentally learning to be OK with the bar feeling slower off the floor at times helps me with the heavier conventional pulls. Plus sumo is so much less stressful on my CNS I can use it as a DL variation to maintain volume.

563

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Thinking of good mornings like RDLs with the bar on your back. You’re going to be pushing your butt out pretty far and really loading the hamstrings. It’s not going to take a lot of weight to create an effect.

Most likely, when they feel like shitty squats, they weight is probably too heavy. There can still be some value there, but it’s not the normally intended effect for them.[/quote]

Okay so I should feel them in my hams more so then my mid/lower back? I always thought them as a ‘back’ lift, and RDL more for hams, but I guess that makes sense. [/quote]

They have a reputation as a back lift, but yeah, they should be hitting the hamstrings and glutes. If you watch someone performing a decent set of RDLs and Good mornings, they’re going to look very similar in terms of the body’s movement, it’s just the placement of the weight that differs.

Now, if you go super heavy on them, they’ll quickly become a back movement, but the topic then becomes if that’s really all that productive. Dave Tate talked about the “chaos training” benefit of such a movement, and Westside was big on them for a while (to the point that 80% of their ME work was some sort of good morning variant) but the pendulum has swung away from that for a bit.

Truthfully, good mornings are one of those movements that my brain tells me is very good but I can’t ever fit into a program.[/quote]

Yeah honestly I really don’t like them. I’m just trying to follow the program as is. If doing it again, I’d likely replace this with something like back raises. I like deficit SLDL’s better in terms of what I think the GM is supposed to do

564

[quote]MarkKO wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thanks so much Sam, man I would have never noticed the hip pop thing being the issue, I’ll definitely ditch it this next session. You may have just saved me a lot of time haha

MarkKO, yeah I think you’re right. I’ll be honest, I may be stronger at Conventional, seeing as I can get 405 from a deficit after Squats pretty easy, so I do probably treat Sumo like conventional. I do intentionally round my upper back, but I think I need to round it, not do the hip pop thing, almost ‘fall back’ behind the bar, and not get jostled the bar doesn’t immediately fall fly off the floor lol. \

I halfway think my Sumo will end up being like what High Bar Squats is for Low Bar Squatters, like it maybe something I can train and end up helping my ‘stronger’ style. Idk yet though. [/quote]

Absolutely. I’m so glad I started pulling sumo, the carryover to my conventional has been huge. Mostly it is in terms of making my lockout stronger and snappier, but also mentally learning to be OK with the bar feeling slower off the floor at times helps me with the heavier conventional pulls. Plus sumo is so much less stressful on my CNS I can use it as a DL variation to maintain volume. [/quote]

Yeah exactly. I think build wise I’m always going to be built for conventional, but it drains me pretty bad. Pulling Sumo seems to help with my hip weakness and allow more pulling from the floor.

565

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]MarkKO wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thanks so much Sam, man I would have never noticed the hip pop thing being the issue, I’ll definitely ditch it this next session. You may have just saved me a lot of time haha

MarkKO, yeah I think you’re right. I’ll be honest, I may be stronger at Conventional, seeing as I can get 405 from a deficit after Squats pretty easy, so I do probably treat Sumo like conventional. I do intentionally round my upper back, but I think I need to round it, not do the hip pop thing, almost ‘fall back’ behind the bar, and not get jostled the bar doesn’t immediately fall fly off the floor lol. \

I halfway think my Sumo will end up being like what High Bar Squats is for Low Bar Squatters, like it maybe something I can train and end up helping my ‘stronger’ style. Idk yet though. [/quote]

Absolutely. I’m so glad I started pulling sumo, the carryover to my conventional has been huge. Mostly it is in terms of making my lockout stronger and snappier, but also mentally learning to be OK with the bar feeling slower off the floor at times helps me with the heavier conventional pulls. Plus sumo is so much less stressful on my CNS I can use it as a DL variation to maintain volume. [/quote]

Yeah exactly. I think build wise I’m always going to be built for conventional, but it drains me pretty bad. Pulling Sumo seems to help with my hip weakness and allow more pulling from the floor.
[/quote]

I found once you pull over around 450 lbs regularly in training conventional starts to get taxing. Now I pull conventional only once a fortnight on my heavy day and sumo or snatch grip the other two days.

566

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thanks so much Sam, man I would have never noticed the hip pop thing being the issue, I’ll definitely ditch it this next session. You may have just saved me a lot of time haha

No problem Spidey! Just putting my Bromechanics expertise to use

MarkKO, yeah I think you’re right. I’ll be honest, I may be stronger at Conventional, seeing as I can get 405 from a deficit after Squats pretty easy, so I do probably treat Sumo like conventional. I do intentionally round my upper back, but I think I need to round it, not do the hip pop thing, almost ‘fall back’ behind the bar, and not get jostled the bar doesn’t immediately fall fly off the floor lol. \

Why do you round intentionally?

567

Sam: I round intentionally because I’ve got a pretty crappy collarbone and ribcage. Long story short, I was born with a chest deformity and has chest surgery that kind of fucked up my shoulder girdle area. After that I suffered some injuries in basketball, so my shoulders, scapula, etc will sometimes ‘pop’ out of place, and the area will be injured for weeks, burning sensation. One of the main culprits was DL’s, trying to pin my shoulder blade back, but then all the sudden the weight pulling them forward and ‘popping’ stuff out of place. So I just started letting them be forward from the start.

On top of the humidity, my fan broke today. So energy was zapped the entire workout, and multiple reps was horrible.

Squats: Meh, go some more reps and weight here and there
275x5
295x5
315x3
330x2
340x1
345x1

Pin Front Squats: I kind of liked these better
175x5x2

Deficit DL: Like I said, humidity caused some major fatigue so honestly I was happy I even got this for a single let alone 2.
425x2

Ok workout all things considering. Need to put a plan in place though.

568

Just a quick pump back/bicep workout, took like 30 minutes.

I really need to strengthen my glutes. I like this Coan DL routine, honestly wish I had done it with conventional though, and had stuck to some block pulls on my first Leg day of the week.

Thinking until I get my knees/glute strength up to par, may stick with some narrower stance high bar Squats and Front Squats for awhile. Get my Quads up to par, while maybe doing some more assistance stuff for my glutes/hips.

569

The pin front squats look great. Using the hip flexors to pull your hips forward and your glutes to open up the knees and push your hips forward will teach you to spread the floor and screw your feet into the ground. That’ll carry over nicely to your back squat. I think you can learn those concepts with either high bar or front squats. I’ve always had trouble learning it with low bar and making sure to use those cues when the weight gets heavy for low bar has been inconsistent, but I’m starting to get the hang of it. Maybe it’ll work out the same way for you, lol.

570

Today was alright

Paused Flat Bench: Happy 215x5 TnG after being pretty fatigued
190x6
200x5
210x4
195x5
205x4
215x4 (TnG)

CG Pin Presses: Meh, idk how I like these
185x2x2

175x3x2

DB Seated Presses: Solid progress on these, seriously lol
40’sx3x15

Then some delt and triceps stuff

I feel like Paused Benching takes a lot out of me, like even though it’s lower weight it’s more stressful on my shoulders and elbows. I don’t see anything glaringly wrong with my form, I just kind of die after a rep and it’s over lol

Pin Presses are alright, idk if I like them anymore than paused Benching or Floor Press though.

571

[quote]lift206 wrote:
The pin front squats look great. Using the hip flexors to pull your hips forward and your glutes to open up the knees and push your hips forward will teach you to spread the floor and screw your feet into the ground. That’ll carry over nicely to your back squat. I think you can learn those concepts with either high bar or front squats. I’ve always had trouble learning it with low bar and making sure to use those cues when the weight gets heavy for low bar has been inconsistent, but I’m starting to get the hang of it. Maybe it’ll work out the same way for you, lol.[/quote]

Yeah I’m honestly considering taking a cue from Dan Green and just having a High bar day and a Front Squat day for awhile, just until I get my knees and hips under control. Because honestly I don’t have a much of a choice with those movements, I either have to perform them right or I’ll fail, difficult to really muscle them up like my lower bar position (which I know is still relatively high for some). What would you suggest?

Also decided to change some of the assistance work on the Coan DL program. I did them for 4-5 weeks, but I think some aren’t helping much. Think I’ll switch to:

5" Sumo Block Pulls
SLDL’s
Rows
Chins

At this point in the program, it’s no longer a circuit/super set, and shrugs are added. While I think GM’s are nice, I just am not getting much out of them, and think if I’m trying to hit my hips/glutes more the Block pulls will help with that a bit more.

572

I suggest you widen your grip on the pin bench press, it should make it more productive and allow you to learn to activate your pressing muscle quickly in the bottom position without it turning into a tricep extension. Wider grip + focus on proper tricep activation > close grip and inefficient movement with less weight.

573

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]lift206 wrote:
The pin front squats look great. Using the hip flexors to pull your hips forward and your glutes to open up the knees and push your hips forward will teach you to spread the floor and screw your feet into the ground. That’ll carry over nicely to your back squat. I think you can learn those concepts with either high bar or front squats. I’ve always had trouble learning it with low bar and making sure to use those cues when the weight gets heavy for low bar has been inconsistent, but I’m starting to get the hang of it. Maybe it’ll work out the same way for you, lol.[/quote]

Yeah I’m honestly considering taking a cue from Dan Green and just having a High bar day and a Front Squat day for awhile, just until I get my knees and hips under control. Because honestly I don’t have a much of a choice with those movements, I either have to perform them right or I’ll fail, difficult to really muscle them up like my lower bar position (which I know is still relatively high for some). What would you suggest?

Also decided to change some of the assistance work on the Coan DL program. I did them for 4-5 weeks, but I think some aren’t helping much. Think I’ll switch to:

5" Sumo Block Pulls
SLDL’s
Rows
Chins

At this point in the program, it’s no longer a circuit/super set, and shrugs are added. While I think GM’s are nice, I just am not getting much out of them, and think if I’m trying to hit my hips/glutes more the Block pulls will help with that a bit more. [/quote]

Front squat and high bar squat are both fine. The important thing is to execute the lifts with a focus on the cues mentioned above. Eventually you’ll need to learn those cues in general, regardless of what variation you use, and then transfer that to your competition lifts.

For the next cycle, it might also be useful to go into it with a new mindset. Don’t think about how much weight you should be lifting. That would mean you’re thinking of how strong you are based on your strongest muscles groups instead of how strong you are based on your weakest/inactive muscle groups. Try focusing more on the contribution from the new muscle groups so they can grow. If you have to drop your normal training weight to 80-90%, so be it. Most times people drop weight and expect technique to improve but really you have to force your technique to improve by focusing on that aspect while doing every single repetition. This is what you’ll see a coach help with.

This can be compared to working in a team. How do you get the most production from a team if you have a couple new members? In the short term you have everyone working their hardest at their current abilities. In the long term, it’s okay for the most valuable members to ease up while the new members are being trained and catching up in skill level.

Those new members eventually need to learn to work well with the rest of the team. Once everyone knows how to work together, they can then work to their potential as a team. Sometimes the most valuable member has to work at 100% for the best production of the entire team, sometimes that has to be at 80% for the entire team to do well. It’ll eventually come down to the bottle neck where someone is the limiting factor. But having everyone work to their full capability is better than having only some work to their full capability and others slacking off or not showing up to work. You’re at the stage where you’re training some new members and you have to put all the effort into that for it to pay off.

Fully commit to getting your hip flexors and glutes to work every rep and it’ll pay off.

574

spidey have you tried speed benching with bands at all? I’ve been finding that, for me, strenght isn’t necessarily the problem through the middle, but that continued generation of velocity. If it doesn’t mess with your elbows maybe give it a try and see if it works for you?
That being said I’m no accomplished lifter or coach, but I’m seeing small improvements

575

[quote]halcj wrote:
I suggest you widen your grip on the pin bench press, it should make it more productive and allow you to learn to activate your pressing muscle quickly in the bottom position without it turning into a tricep extension. Wider grip + focus on proper tricep activation > close grip and inefficient movement with less weight.[/quote]

Hmmm yeah makes sense. Thanks for the tip. Closegrip always feels funny for me anyway.

576

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]lift206 wrote:
The pin front squats look great. Using the hip flexors to pull your hips forward and your glutes to open up the knees and push your hips forward will teach you to spread the floor and screw your feet into the ground. That’ll carry over nicely to your back squat. I think you can learn those concepts with either high bar or front squats. I’ve always had trouble learning it with low bar and making sure to use those cues when the weight gets heavy for low bar has been inconsistent, but I’m starting to get the hang of it. Maybe it’ll work out the same way for you, lol.[/quote]

Yeah I’m honestly considering taking a cue from Dan Green and just having a High bar day and a Front Squat day for awhile, just until I get my knees and hips under control. Because honestly I don’t have a much of a choice with those movements, I either have to perform them right or I’ll fail, difficult to really muscle them up like my lower bar position (which I know is still relatively high for some). What would you suggest?

Also decided to change some of the assistance work on the Coan DL program. I did them for 4-5 weeks, but I think some aren’t helping much. Think I’ll switch to:

5" Sumo Block Pulls
SLDL’s
Rows
Chins

At this point in the program, it’s no longer a circuit/super set, and shrugs are added. While I think GM’s are nice, I just am not getting much out of them, and think if I’m trying to hit my hips/glutes more the Block pulls will help with that a bit more. [/quote]

Front squat and high bar squat are both fine. The important thing is to execute the lifts with a focus on the cues mentioned above. Eventually you’ll need to learn those cues in general, regardless of what variation you use, and then transfer that to your competition lifts.

For the next cycle, it might also be useful to go into it with a new mindset. Don’t think about how much weight you should be lifting. That would mean you’re thinking of how strong you are based on your strongest muscles groups instead of how strong you are based on your weakest/inactive muscle groups. Try focusing more on the contribution from the new muscle groups so they can grow. If you have to drop your normal training weight to 80-90%, so be it. Most times people drop weight and expect technique to improve but really you have to force your technique to improve by focusing on that aspect while doing every single repetition. This is what you’ll see a coach help with.

This can be compared to working in a team. How do you get the most production from a team if you have a couple new members? In the short term you have everyone working their hardest at their current abilities. In the long term, it’s okay for the most valuable members to ease up while the new members are being trained and catching up in skill level.

Those new members eventually need to learn to work well with the rest of the team. Once everyone knows how to work together, they can then work to their potential as a team. Sometimes the most valuable member has to work at 100% for the best production of the entire team, sometimes that has to be at 80% for the entire team to do well. It’ll eventually come down to the bottle neck where someone is the limiting factor. But having everyone work to their full capability is better than having only some work to their full capability and others slacking off or not showing up to work. You’re at the stage where you’re training some new members and you have to put all the effort into that for it to pay off.

Fully commit to getting your hip flexors and glutes to work every rep and it’ll pay off.[/quote]

Thanks for this, this makes a ton of sense. Honestly it kind of almost sounds like lifting like a BB’er, which used to me more in line with my goals so I don’t feel it’ll be that hard to do. Just concentrating on certain muscles contractions.

I’ll need to just figure out some kind of progression model I like with ‘manageable’ weights, and not always just trying to PR every other day. I think I did better today.

But once again thank you for helping me as much as you do.

577

[quote]kleinhound wrote:
spidey have you tried speed benching with bands at all? I’ve been finding that, for me, strenght isn’t necessarily the problem through the middle, but that continued generation of velocity. If it doesn’t mess with your elbows maybe give it a try and see if it works for you?
That being said I’m no accomplished lifter or coach, but I’m seeing small improvements [/quote]

I did them for a small amount of time, they helped my kind of find my ‘strongest’ bar path. I’ve never heard raw lifters getting much out of them, so haven’t messed with them honestly. Any set/rep scheme you prefer?

578

Today I hit some legs, different than usual

Front Squats: Form got a bit sloppy so I stopped. but wasn’t bad having not went over 205 with these in months
205x3
225x3
245x3
255x2

Paused High Bar Squats: Beltless. These looked pretty good, but then again weight is light. Knees wanna come in but you can see me fighting lol
225x3x6

Then some banded bad girls and split Squats

Solid workout, not too heavy.

579

So next two weeks will be very hectic for me. Bachelor party, wedding, theme park, a lot of long work hours. So training may take a slight hit, not sure though. Thinking of knocking down to a 5-day split of:

Squats + Legs
Bench + Upper Body
Off
Front Squats + Back
Bench/OHP
Coan DL
Off

I think an extra day of rest would be nice, at least temporarily. Then again I kind of want to go back to Squatting/Benching 3x or more a week, that’s always fun and usually allows more flexibility. Idk though.

580

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Today I hit some legs, different than usual

Front Squats: Form got a bit sloppy so I stopped. but wasn’t bad having not went over 205 with these in months
205x3
225x3
245x3
255x2

Paused High Bar Squats: Beltless. These looked pretty good, but then again weight is light. Knees wanna come in but you can see me fighting lol
225x3x6

Then some banded bad girls and split Squats

Solid workout, not too heavy. [/quote]
Is that your knees I hear popping in the first three reps?