Yeah, those guys who already totaled elite. They think that 1471 is a shitty beginner total. Fuck those guys who barely scratch an “elite” total.
Hell, I think we should just keep the numbers the same and just change the name from “elite” to “decent” or maybe even “average.”
That way, if you total 1400 at 181, you can be average.
You know because when you look at the BELL CURVE OF ALL PEOPLE WHO COMPETE IN THIS SPORT 1400 IS OBVIOUSLY RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE for a guy at 181.
You’re right. That’s totally valid.
[quote]trivium wrote:
Yeah, those guys who already totaled elite. They think that 1471 is a shitty beginner total. Fuck those guys who barely scratch an “elite” total.
Hell, I think we should just keep the numbers the same and just change the name from “elite” to “decent” or maybe even “average.”
That way, if you total 1400 at 181, you can be average.
You know because when you look at the BELL CURVE OF ALL PEOPLE WHO COMPETE IN THIS SPORT 1400 IS OBVIOUSLY RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE for a guy at 181.[/quote]
I don’t think I totally understand what your saying. Are you saying that someone’s total that falls right in the middle of competition performances deserves to be recognized as elite?
[quote]trivium wrote:
www.southernpowerliftin…
rawpowerlifting.com/...RECORDS-MEN.pdf[/quote]
I mean, using a sample size taken from the southern part of one country in the whole world is a decent approach when looking at what determines elite in a sport. Just because you’re the best Football player in Alaska doesn’t mean you’re gonna be in the Hall of Fame.
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?
[quote]jonalderson85 wrote:
I’m a strongman competitor so the flawless form is a learning experience!! I’m putting in my time squatting now trying to learn it. Monday I will have another squat video for review. Appreciate all the help[/quote]
If you clean it up a bit (squat a bit lower, and have a more definitive lockout), I see no problem with your form.
AND, despite what bullshit other people are going to tell you, you’re fucking strong.
Good lifts man.
[quote]trivium wrote:
…
AND, despite what bullshit other people are going to tell you, you’re fucking strong.
Good lifts man.[/quote]
Who exactly said this man wasn’t “strong?” Are you really having this much trouble understanding the difference between average, good, strong, not strong, and elite? This man is clearly strong. He is stronger than a good portion of the general population. In fact, that 700 deadlift is in some top percentage of the general population that I don’t care to guess at. However, he is not elite – there is nothing wrong with not being elite.
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted.
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted. [/quote]
Dude, if you think there are a lot of guys who roll out of bed and are totaling elite, you are delusional.
You are also forgetting that those competitors travel far and wide to get to meets a lot of the time. Just because 10 guys total elite in Jacksonville, doesn’t mean they are all from that area.
Your thinking is flawed, and your reasoning poor.
The way that elite sits now, is elite.
It is precisely where it should be.
AND, bear in mind that a 300 lb bench is “standard” to a 400 squat and a 450 to a 500 lb deadlift, but one does not guarantee the other.
The odds of having all three being in a give range increase the rarity.
[quote]DaveForner wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
…
AND, despite what bullshit other people are going to tell you, you’re fucking strong.
Good lifts man.[/quote]
Who exactly said this man wasn’t “strong?” Are you really having this much trouble understanding the difference between average, good, strong, not strong, and elite? This man is clearly strong. He is stronger than a good portion of the general population. In fact, that 700 deadlift is in some top percentage of the general population that I don’t care to guess at. However, he is not elite – there is nothing wrong with not being elite.
[/quote]
Actually, that lift is 75 lbs heavier than what a lot of federations consider to be elite at 198.
THAT IS AN ELITE LIFT if he can get it to pass.
In fact 700 an elite number for 275 lb weight class according to some charts.
How much more “elite” do you need to be?
If he totals elite, he is statistically a rarity among people who compete in powerlifting according to the charts, which in our case is synonymous with elite.
I am sure that when the people WHO RUN FEDERATIONS sat down and crunched the numbers, that they wanted to allow everyone to be “elite,” so they lowered them so that we can all feel good about ourselves, and that a few guys on an internet forum can do it better.
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted. [/quote]
Dude, if you think there are a lot of guys who roll out of bed and are totaling elite, you are delusional.
You are also forgetting that those competitors travel far and wide to get to meets a lot of the time. Just because 10 guys total elite in Jacksonville, doesn’t mean they are all from that area.
Your thinking is flawed, and your reasoning poor.
The way that elite sits now, is elite.
It is precisely where it should be.
AND, bear in mind that a 300 lb bench is “standard” to a 400 squat and a 450 to a 500 lb deadlift, but one does not guarantee the other.
The odds of having all three being in a give range increase the rarity.[/quote]
I think youre missing the point, and by the sounds of it are looking for the glorification of some chart to validity youre own lifts rather than objectively viewing the sport as a whole.
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted. [/quote]
Dude, if you think there are a lot of guys who roll out of bed and are totaling elite, you are delusional.
You are also forgetting that those competitors travel far and wide to get to meets a lot of the time. Just because 10 guys total elite in Jacksonville, doesn’t mean they are all from that area.
Your thinking is flawed, and your reasoning poor.
The way that elite sits now, is elite.
It is precisely where it should be.
AND, bear in mind that a 300 lb bench is “standard” to a 400 squat and a 450 to a 500 lb deadlift, but one does not guarantee the other.
The odds of having all three being in a give range increase the rarity.[/quote]
I think your missing the point, and by the sounds of it are looking for for the glorification of some chart to validity your own lifts rather that objectively viewing the sport as a whole.
[/quote]
No. YOU are missing the point. I am nowhere near elite, and I don’t pretend to be, but I do have enough sense to not try to say that elite totals are not elite and then back my argument with responses like “because” or base my stuff off of “how I feel.”
Statistically speaking the charts are sound. Someone didn’t just make a spreadsheet at random.
The people that put together the charts for 100% RAW for instance look at the PLwatch standings and adjust their standards every 3 to 5 years based on trends in global numbers as they are presented on that website. It is ABSURD to take your view on it seriously.
OP, you can be sure that if you total elite, you are IN FACT an elite lifter.
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted. [/quote]
Dude, if you think there are a lot of guys who roll out of bed and are totaling elite, you are delusional.
You are also forgetting that those competitors travel far and wide to get to meets a lot of the time. Just because 10 guys total elite in Jacksonville, doesn’t mean they are all from that area.
Your thinking is flawed, and your reasoning poor.
The way that elite sits now, is elite.
It is precisely where it should be.
AND, bear in mind that a 300 lb bench is “standard” to a 400 squat and a 450 to a 500 lb deadlift, but one does not guarantee the other.
The odds of having all three being in a give range increase the rarity.[/quote]
I think your missing the point, and by the sounds of it are looking for for the glorification of some chart to validity your own lifts rather that objectively viewing the sport as a whole.
[/quote]
No. YOU are missing the point. I am nowhere near elite, and I don’t pretend to be, but I do have enough sense to not try to say that elite totals are not elite and then back my argument with responses like “because” or base my stuff off of “how I feel.”
Statistically speaking the charts are sound. Someone didn’t just make a spreadsheet at random.
The people that put together the charts for 100% RAW for instance look at the PLwatch standings and adjust their standards every 3 to 5 years based on trends in global numbers as they are presented on that website. It is ABSURD to take your view on it seriously.
OP, you can be sure that if you total elite, you are IN FACT an elite lifter.[/quote]
I don’t know buddy… The whole point is that ELITE should be a very meaningful title. In my opinion I agree that going off of something like the old Russian charts from ClassIV-I, CMS, MS, and MSIC are more relevant.
These charts accurately document what it really means to be a ‘master of sport, international class’ (which is how I personally would choose to define elite). For example, in the 181 class the standard is ~745kg (this is raw of course). Now if you look at the true ‘elite’ in the world (Castillo, Bakkelund, etc) then these are the numbers they will lift.
The whole debate here is really what you think the term ‘elite’ means. For me, it means just that - a top tier international athlete. With the standards of ‘elite’ whereby at the 198 class 1471 is elite then there are SEVERAL athletes (I think 6?) in Canada alone who could hit that mark that lift in the weightclass lower (83kg). With this in mind, it really devalues the title. Anyways, no sense arguing because people always search for ways to stroke their ego. This is just like people always wanting to upgrade their work titles. You still do the same work or lift the same weight and I personally don’t really care how you choose to classify yourself. But if you ever want titles like ‘ELITE’ or ‘engineer’ or ‘physician’ to mean anything, then the standards need to maintained at a top level and 1471 at 198 is not nearly top tier enough. Not to say it isn’t a perfectly respectable total, but no, it doesn’t hold any weight to claim elite if that total qualifies.
[quote]arramzy wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted. [/quote]
Dude, if you think there are a lot of guys who roll out of bed and are totaling elite, you are delusional.
You are also forgetting that those competitors travel far and wide to get to meets a lot of the time. Just because 10 guys total elite in Jacksonville, doesn’t mean they are all from that area.
Your thinking is flawed, and your reasoning poor.
The way that elite sits now, is elite.
It is precisely where it should be.
AND, bear in mind that a 300 lb bench is “standard” to a 400 squat and a 450 to a 500 lb deadlift, but one does not guarantee the other.
The odds of having all three being in a give range increase the rarity.[/quote]
I think your missing the point, and by the sounds of it are looking for for the glorification of some chart to validity your own lifts rather that objectively viewing the sport as a whole.
[/quote]
No. YOU are missing the point. I am nowhere near elite, and I don’t pretend to be, but I do have enough sense to not try to say that elite totals are not elite and then back my argument with responses like “because” or base my stuff off of “how I feel.”
Statistically speaking the charts are sound. Someone didn’t just make a spreadsheet at random.
The people that put together the charts for 100% RAW for instance look at the PLwatch standings and adjust their standards every 3 to 5 years based on trends in global numbers as they are presented on that website. It is ABSURD to take your view on it seriously.
OP, you can be sure that if you total elite, you are IN FACT an elite lifter.[/quote]
I don’t know buddy… The whole point is that ELITE should be a very meaningful title. In my opinion I agree that going off of something like the old Russian charts from ClassIV-I, CMS, MS, and MSIC are more relevant.
These charts accurately document what it really means to be a ‘master of sport, international class’ (which is how I personally would choose to define elite). For example, in the 181 class the standard is ~745kg (this is raw of course). Now if you look at the true ‘elite’ in the world (Castillo, Bakkelund, etc) then these are the numbers they will lift.
The whole debate here is really what you think the term ‘elite’ means. For me, it means just that - a top tier international athlete. With the standards of ‘elite’ whereby at the 198 class 1471 is elite then there are SEVERAL athletes (I think 6?) in Canada alone who could hit that mark that lift in the weightclass lower (83kg). With this in mind, it really devalues the title. Anyways, no sense arguing because people always search for ways to stroke their ego. This is just like people always wanting to upgrade their work titles. You still do the same work or lift the same weight and I personally don’t really care how you choose to classify yourself. But if you ever want titles like ‘ELITE’ or ‘engineer’ or ‘physician’ to mean anything, then the standards need to maintained at a top level and 1471 at 198 is not nearly top tier enough. Not to say it isn’t a perfectly respectable total, but no, it doesn’t hold any weight to claim elite if that total qualifies.[/quote]
I do realize that I am at T-Nation, and that most people are probably going to run contrary to my own views on the matter, however that does not mean that they are correct.
Elite is defined by statistics, not by people who are way off of the bell curve.
I look at it this way. If you are an elite lifter, you can probably lift at a pro meet. This does not mean that you have a pro total.
Just because you have a pro total does not mean that you are in possession of a world record total.
Elite is based off of 2% of the population in that weight class. As it goes for 100% RAW, the article says that they particularly make the standings so that not too many people can claim an elite total. From my understanding, not too many people total elite out of 100% Raw for various reasons.
Other federations have announced their own elites though that are higher, I do admit that, however I feel like they are based off of pro totals exclusively, which is flawed in my book. You have to look at the whole ball of yarn in order to really get a grasp on what is elite, not just the top so many lifters in the world. That makes no sense.
I will say this though, if I had my way, there would only be 4 classifications.
I figure 1600 would be respectable at 198. I’m trying to figure out my squat, the progress hasn’t been there like it was with my dead
[quote]trivium wrote:
Elite is defined by statistics, not by people who are way off of the bell curve.
Elite is based off of 2% of the population in that weight class. [/quote]
I believe this is what the argument on the other side of the perspective is against. Instead of elite being based off the top 2% of the weight class, it should be more exclusive.
It’s all going to be opinion. There is no one way to objectively define what is and is not “elite”, because the term itself is open to interpretation when applied to a number here.
I’m not Jesse Norris… Not claiming to be… That will come with time!
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]clutz15 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
Oh yea, look at all these guys walking around with elite numbers. I know like 10 of them in my gym alone. AND, I hear that there are another 10 in the gym down the road too.
198 should definitely be soooooo much higher than 1471.[/quote]
Maybe but most feds are off that number. Some have Elite Totals for wraps and classic. But 1471 unwrapped classic for 198 I think is decent. I mean 550/325/600 to standard belt only total is not something your average guy is going to do. I think you have to some what look at the population. Those are some big numbers if done to standard. But, I do agree they are some what low but none the less that’s what it is.[/quote]
Remember the term here is “Elite”. Again, this total is a complete joke for anyone who is actually elite. Is 1471 at 198 a good total? ya any total an individual lifter is proud of is a “good” total. However, this total might not win your weight class at a competitive regional or state meet. In my opinion the Elite level would be top tier at worlds but in most cases a 1471 total wouldn’t get you there. Looking at the National level in the U.S, this total would put you 10th. Pretty much exactly mid pack.
The Russian Classifications are much more accurate with 1730 at 198 being elite.
[/quote]
1471 at 198 is the qualifying total for Raw Unity. But who would want to qualify for that shit meet anyway, right?
In fact, I believe that the guy who finished third at RUM7 in the 220s this year totaled 1670. In my book, that is not super far off of the 1587 you need to be considered elite (it’s like 27 lbs per lift). I mean he lifted against guys like Jay Nera and Dan Green. (I think that he also posts on this site by the name of Astar. Maybe he could weigh in if he finds his way here?) I am sure that he rolled out of bed one day and was like “HA! I can total “elite,” what a fucking joke! Stupid mortals…”
But, as you said, this is only a “good” total because he is probably proud of it, not because it was…you know…fucking awesome no matter who you are or anything like that.
Can you explain to me how being a top 10 national level lifter in the united states makes you “exactly mid pack?” Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong?[/quote]
Your missing a few key points here. You reference “competing” against lifters such as Dan Green and Nera. Both of whom are undebatably elite, ironically both of them far surpass the “Elite” qualification standards. In fact even the third place competitor you mentioned, Alistar surpasses the standard by 27lbs… PER LIFT.
I think this is the problem with alot of people is they want the participation medal. Elite should in fact be Elite. Meaning that for some people it is actually unattainable. Just like some people excel at academics or music or whatever else, some people are build to be strong and others are not. Thats life unfortunately if you happen to have a passion for something you aren’t naturally gifted or predisposed to be good at.
I think what I’m saying is no one should be able to roll out of bed and achieve Elite. The Elite should have to work for that recognition.
10th place at Nationals (usapl nationals), a meet that doesn’t have a qualificaton standard meaning anyone who has competed before can participate. Had 23 open lifters in the equivalent weightclass. 10th place out of the 23 achieved an “Elite” total. Now if you look at the 100+ countries that make up the governing body of the usapl that means that 1000 lifters in the world are capable of achieving “elite”. Obviously there is alot of assumptions being made here like every country has 20 lifters per weightclass at nationals; however, you can also look at it in a way that 50% of the nations national competitors achieved “elite” status. Hence my comments on mid pack.
“Of all of the people that lift weights and do PL meets in the USA, how does being in the top 10 of ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE make you mid pack.” Like I said, anyone… Ok not anyone. Any drug free lifter who is capable of totaling 75kg in a sanctioned usapl powerlifting meet can compete at Nationals. So of the 23 that decided to make the trip 10 totalled “elite”. Maybe we should just change all of the classification standards to 75kg. This way only the people that do meets are elite.
Edit: The debate has never been about the OP’s numbers or lifts. He is cleary stronger than average Joe and like DForner pointed out his deadlift may in fact be considered elite if he can make it count. Actually with some time there is no reason he couldn’t achieve a truly elite total. The point is that an elite total should be earned not something achievable in your first contest because you are naturally gifted. [/quote]
Dude, if you think there are a lot of guys who roll out of bed and are totaling elite, you are delusional.
You are also forgetting that those competitors travel far and wide to get to meets a lot of the time. Just because 10 guys total elite in Jacksonville, doesn’t mean they are all from that area.
Your thinking is flawed, and your reasoning poor.
The way that elite sits now, is elite.
It is precisely where it should be.
AND, bear in mind that a 300 lb bench is “standard” to a 400 squat and a 450 to a 500 lb deadlift, but one does not guarantee the other.
The odds of having all three being in a give range increase the rarity.[/quote]
I think your missing the point, and by the sounds of it are looking for for the glorification of some chart to validity your own lifts rather that objectively viewing the sport as a whole.
[/quote]
No. YOU are missing the point. I am nowhere near elite, and I don’t pretend to be, but I do have enough sense to not try to say that elite totals are not elite and then back my argument with responses like “because” or base my stuff off of “how I feel.”
Statistically speaking the charts are sound. Someone didn’t just make a spreadsheet at random.
The people that put together the charts for 100% RAW for instance look at the PLwatch standings and adjust their standards every 3 to 5 years based on trends in global numbers as they are presented on that website. It is ABSURD to take your view on it seriously.
OP, you can be sure that if you total elite, you are IN FACT an elite lifter.[/quote]
Right, when I mentioned the Russian Classification charts as being more accurate and appropriate for determining Elite standards I was completely uninformed and misguided. The European countries have very little knowledge, information or experience when it comes to world class lifting. In fact I emailed Boris and told him to set the 90kg MSIC standard at 785kg because I woke up one morning and decided that’s just what it needed to be.
I can see both sides, but Trivium’s arguments make more sense. If you look at any sport at a global level, there are actually many “elite” athletes. It shouldn’t be that uncommon. There are billions of people on earth.
For example, considering how many people play football in America, it would be hard to argue that anyone in the NFL is not an elite football player when considering the sport as a whole. You had to be in the top 99 percentile to even be considered. Same with the NBA, MLB, etc. There are literally hundreds of men I would consider elite athletes in their given sport in America alone. Let’s not even touch soccer, arguably the most popular sport on earth.
Now, if you want to start shooting the shit about who the best of the best is, or who the MOST elite are, then you have a different situation. Then you really start to get into opinions. Those kinds of debates will rage on forever. You are talking about people who will be remembered even by the casual sport fan - the very pinnacle of achievement in their sport, and even then people will argue and the list will be more than a handful. But you don’t have to be THAT friggin’ good to be elite. That’s kind of a ludicrous standard when viewing a sport as a whole. That’s like saying if you aren’t as good as Kevin Durant then you must not be an “elite” basketball player. What knucklehead would tell another member of the Thunder that they aren’t elite because they aren’t as good as Durant?
Just because a lifter won’t win an international championship - that doesn’t mean he or she aren’t elite. Every single player on the Buffalo bills is an elite football player when compared to ALL people who play football, but they haven’t won a superbowl yet and may not ever. Sort of like analyzing a classification system for amateur athletes - an “elite” total isn’t mean to compare you against only the best of the best, particularly pro athletes. It’s supposed to compare you to anyone who ever lifted a barbell on the platform. Are you elite compared to all athletes? The way the opponents are viewing it isn’t really a useful metric for anyone, because if you are already internationally elite by their standards, you probably don’t need guidelines telling you how strong you are.
If someone is already that good, he shouldn’t get his panties in a knot just because, statistically speaking, some other person’s lifts put him in a generic “elite” ranking. If someone’s total is hundreds of pounds better than “elite,” then more power to that person. I would say good luck at worlds, and stop worrying about other people threatening your fragile ego.
And honestly, for two guys who are insanely strong, top-tier powerlifters, who from what I understand have a legitimate chance at competing internationally, to come and shit on the “elite” standard is like Peyton Manning showing up at JV football practice to let all the QBs know they suck. “Sorry Junior, you’ll never be elite like me, now watch this pass.”