[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
jawara wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
And they’d nuke Hawaii and face annihilation why?[/quote]
First of all they don’t call him Kim Jong “Mentally” Ill for nuthin.
Second of all with all the wimps and pacifist we have in this country and in our government we ain’t annihilatining anyone. We can’t even handle those Somali pirates. We have Navy SEALS (no discredit to them) trained for taking over ships and we aren’t using them. WTF!?!?!?!!???
[quote]jawara wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
jawara wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
And they’d nuke Hawaii and face annihilation why?
First of all they don’t call him Kim Jong “Mentally” Ill for nuthin.
Second of all with all the wimps and pacifist we have in this country and in our government we ain’t annihilatining anyone. We can’t even handle those Somali pirates. We have Navy SEALS (no discredit to them) trained for taking over ships and we aren’t using them. WTF!?!?!?!!???[/quote]
A country loaded with wimps and pacifists just invaded two countries (not arguing the morality, stating a fact) in the last eight years. Either there aren’t that many wimps and pacifists, or they get awfully silent in a hurry.
And you honestly think America wouldn’t respond with nuclear retaliation to a nuclear attack on a U.S. state?!
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
jawara wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
jawara wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
And they’d nuke Hawaii and face annihilation why?
First of all they don’t call him Kim Jong “Mentally” Ill for nuthin.
Second of all with all the wimps and pacifist we have in this country and in our government we ain’t annihilatining anyone. We can’t even handle those Somali pirates. We have Navy SEALS (no discredit to them) trained for taking over ships and we aren’t using them. WTF!?!?!?!!???
A country loaded with wimps and pacifists just invaded two countries (not arguing the morality, stating a fact) in the last eight years. Either there aren’t that many wimps and pacifists, or they get awfully silent in a hurry.
And you honestly think America wouldn’t respond with nuclear retaliation to a nuclear attack on a U.S. state?![/quote]
And those same wimps and pacifist’s (code pink comes to mind) have been protesting every step of the way. The military only makes up about 1% of the total population of the country.
No I don’t think we would respond with a nuke in this scenerio. If we had a bad ass missle defense shield and some bad ass fighters that were able to deploy and destroy a missle in flight we wouldnt have to worry about any of this would we?
[quote]jawara wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
You rightwingers should be elated.
Obama/Gates is showing some spine here.
The F22, while looking good on paper and in the movies, is not what you need right now, or ever.
Dogfights with a 100mio+ vehicle makes as much sense as going to as barbrawl with your tux and top hat.
10% of your people are on food stamps, 1% sits in jail. You need to set your priorities straight.
If China and Russia are comming p with new fighters while ours are old,worn out, and broken whats wrong with the US getting new planes. Keep in mind their are new SU-27’s and 30’s being made by the Russians and I’m sure they have no problem selling them.
I remember someone said once if you take a soldier and give him the best training available and the best equipment he will win.
A little off topic but I thought food stamps and welfare was somthing that the LEFTWINGERS wanted increase, not the left.
[/quote]
China’s SU 32’s are not being made by the Russians they are being made under license by the Chinese in a Chinese factory. The Chinese engineers in the factory have been brought over from another Chinese factory that was doing contract work making commercial aircraft parts for Boeing.
Because of their experience the Chinese engineers are building the SU-32 at a quality level that is the same as Boeing commercial aircraft. This is why the Chinese SU 32’s are considered to be better quality than the Russian ones. They also are trying to get an Israeli avionics package that was designed for India’s SU-32’s.
At a recent joint war game with the US, Indian SU-32’s were able to beat their American F-15 opponents.
Just more proof that WE need new fighters. We can only train our pilots to be the best they can be with the equipment that they have. If that equipment sucks they will lose. It’s like a making the guy who made Windows use a Commadore 64 to work with.
[quote]jawara wrote:
Just more proof that WE need new fighters. We can only train our pilots to be the best they can be with the equipment that they have. If that equipment sucks they will lose. It’s like a making the guy who made Windows use a Commadore 64 to work with.[/quote]
Exactly, but these fools are to stupid to understand that.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
jawara wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
jawara wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
And they’d nuke Hawaii and face annihilation why?
First of all they don’t call him Kim Jong “Mentally” Ill for nuthin.
Second of all with all the wimps and pacifist we have in this country and in our government we ain’t annihilatining anyone. We can’t even handle those Somali pirates. We have Navy SEALS (no discredit to them) trained for taking over ships and we aren’t using them. WTF!?!?!?!!???
A country loaded with wimps and pacifists just invaded two countries (not arguing the morality, stating a fact) in the last eight years. Either there aren’t that many wimps and pacifists, or they get awfully silent in a hurry.
And you honestly think America wouldn’t respond with nuclear retaliation to a nuclear attack on a U.S. state?![/quote]
I never doubted that before Obama. I think it is slightly more then 50/50 that he would respond with a nuke but it’s not a certainty anymore. If they hit a population center like NYC I doubt Obama would retaliate by hitting Pyonyang. Maybe he’d hit a military target well away from the cities. Maybe not.
Ultimately it would depend on what Axelrod told him to do and what political capital he could accumulate by doing it. Most other Presidents would have done it to punish the aggressor and send a message to others. The response would have been overwhelming. I think Obama would do the absolute minimum required to stay in office and then try and bargain a deal and claim some sort of moral victory.
The country is just starting to wake up to the fact they elected a weak and inexperienced leader, with an agenda that will weaken the nation, not strengthen it, in an effort to consolidate his political base.
Think about why the Chinese and Russians don’t worry about North Korea or Iran. They are certain what they will do if attacked. So are the Iranians and NK’s. Up until January the same could be said for the US. Not anymore. Uncertainty breeds speculation on the part of our enemies. Speculation on the possibility of an attack succeeding is what makes it possible. They can’t do enough to win but they can leverage the fear in our leadership for a lot of mileage.
Russian 5th gen fighters like the Su47 and the Mig44 are as good as or better than the F22 and clearly outclass the F35. Their 4th gen fighters rival our F15, F16, and F18. And, they sell them to almost anyone.
My point is that a war in which we, without the F22, are up against an enemy with modern Russian fighters and good pilots, we’re screwed. Even with the F22, we won’t have the dominance in the air we’ve enjoyed in the dessert.
are you guys even reading any of the articles youre linking about gates budget?
2009 budget= 513-15 billion excluding Iraq and Afghanistan costs.
2010 budget= 537 billion excluding Iraq and Afghanistan.
but i imagine you guys simply listened to some moron on the tv or radio who told you it was a decrease because the Bush era budget wish list was $584 billion.
" 1. Fully protect and properly fund the growth in military end strength in the base budget. This means completing the growth in the Army and Marines while halting reductions in the Air Force and the Navy. Accomplishing this will require a nearly $11 billion increase above the FY09 budget level."
[quote]Sifu wrote:
I think it was a slight increase.[/quote]
try to read up before commenting.
[quote]NickRageSkursky wrote:
Russian 5th gen fighters like the Su47 and the Mig44 are as good as or better than the F22 and clearly outclass the F35. Their 4th gen fighters rival our F15, F16, and F18. And, they sell them to almost anyone.
My point is that a war in which we, without the F22, are up against an enemy with modern Russian fighters and good pilots, we’re screwed. Even with the F22, we won’t have the dominance in the air we’ve enjoyed in the dessert. [/quote]
The Russians aren’t even building and flying these modern russian fighters. This type of statement is a throwback to the Reagan years. Back in the 80’s the Russians were considered to be better than the US military. In 91, the russian equipped Iraqi Army was considered to be almost as good as the american military. We know now that none of that was true.
We are going to field 180 F-22’s. If there is another country that can put that many 5th generation aircraft up then they might have a shot. One new model of fighter plane does not guarantee air superiority. You have to factor our air sensors and battle management systems into your analysis to accurately make a statement that we would be screwed. A 5th generation fighter is no good if it is destroyed on the ground. A 5th generation fighter is no good if it can’t communicate.
One thing you guys don’t understand is that the Pentagon is not going to sacrifice air superiority for the sake of saving money. It is a basic tenent of US strategy that we will control our adversary’s airspace. The fears of the Indian Air Force and Chinese SU fighters are unfounded. Those aircraft and pilots are good, but they are so few in numbers that they aren’t a realistic threat.
What are the number of daily sorties of advanced fighters that the Chinese can put into the air every day? How much training do Chinese, Russian, and Indian fighter pilots get to become good? The Russian Air Force didn’t perform as well as expected against the Georgians last year.
It is dangerous for Pentagon to continue to let the defense contractors like Boeing and Lockheed Martin write our military doctrine by selling us expensive systems that we don’t need.
[quote]BH6 wrote:
NickRageSkursky wrote:
Russian 5th gen fighters like the Su47 and the Mig44 are as good as or better than the F22 and clearly outclass the F35. Their 4th gen fighters rival our F15, F16, and F18. And, they sell them to almost anyone.
My point is that a war in which we, without the F22, are up against an enemy with modern Russian fighters and good pilots, we’re screwed. Even with the F22, we won’t have the dominance in the air we’ve enjoyed in the dessert.
The Russians aren’t even building and flying these modern russian fighters. This type of statement is a throwback to the Reagan years. Back in the 80’s the Russians were considered to be better than the US military. In 91, the russian equipped Iraqi Army was considered to be almost as good as the american military. We know now that none of that was true.
We are going to field 180 F-22’s. If there is another country that can put that many 5th generation aircraft up then they might have a shot. One new model of fighter plane does not guarantee air superiority. You have to factor our air sensors and battle management systems into your analysis to accurately make a statement that we would be screwed. A 5th generation fighter is no good if it is destroyed on the ground. A 5th generation fighter is no good if it can’t communicate.
One thing you guys don’t understand is that the Pentagon is not going to sacrifice air superiority for the sake of saving money. It is a basic tenent of US strategy that we will control our adversary’s airspace. The fears of the Indian Air Force and Chinese SU fighters are unfounded. Those aircraft and pilots are good, but they are so few in numbers that they aren’t a realistic threat.
What are the number of daily sorties of advanced fighters that the Chinese can put into the air every day? How much training do Chinese, Russian, and Indian fighter pilots get to become good? The Russian Air Force didn’t perform as well as expected against the Georgians last year.
It is dangerous for Pentagon to continue to let the defense contractors like Boeing and Lockheed Martin write our military doctrine by selling us expensive systems that we don’t need. [/quote]
You are missing some important facts. While it is true that the Su 47 and MIG 1.44 are only developmental aircraft at this time, the fact that they are being developed by the Russians means the technology is available to the Chinese.
Something you should study up on is the investments that China has been making in the Russian armaments industry. I don’t know if you have noticed but the Russians have been introducing new weapons systems. The Chinese are the reason why.
After the the end of the cold war Russian spending on new weapons systems was eliminated and their military industrial complex languished. In recent years the Chinese have been forming joint partnerships with the Russian arms companies and have invested billions of dollars in them so they can complete projects that were ongoing at the end of the cold war when these companies lost their funding.
The Chinese have also been giving them money to develop the next generation of weapons systems. In exchange for the money the Chinese are getting access to the Russian arms technology.
The Russians are gambling that they will be able to stay ahead of the Chinese with their technology so the Chinese will have to keep the partnerships going but they may not.
The Chinese are capable of making anything that the US can. So if they can get fifth generation fighter technology from the Russians they will be able to build it themselves.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
You are missing some important facts. While it is true that the Su 47 and MIG 1.44 are only developmental aircraft at this time, the fact that they are being developed by the Russians means the technology is available to the Chinese.
Something you should study up on is the investments that China has been making in the Russian armaments industry. I don’t know if you have noticed but the Russians have been introducing new weapons systems. The Chinese are the reason why.
After the the end of the cold war Russian spending on new weapons systems was eliminated and their military industrial complex languished. In recent years the Chinese have been forming joint partnerships with the Russian arms companies and have invested billions of dollars in them so they can complete projects that were ongoing at the end of the cold war when these companies lost their funding.
The Chinese have also been giving them money to develop the next generation of weapons systems. In exchange for the money the Chinese are getting access to the Russian arms technology.
The Russians are gambling that they will be able to stay ahead of the Chinese with their technology so the Chinese will have to keep the partnerships going but they may not.
The Chinese are capable of making anything that the US can. So if they can get fifth generation fighter technology from the Russians they will be able to build it themselves.
[/quote]
One squadron of these “5th” generation fighters built and flown by the Chinese still aren’t a threat. The Russians did this same routine throughout the cold war with the T-90 tank, the Havok helicopter, and these advanced generation fighters. They never get built except in few numbers and they are reserved as demonstration and parade vehicles.
The commmand and control, maintenance, and logistical support for these systems don’t exist. They can fly them, but they can’t fight with them.
The Russians, despite the number of “advanced” systems that have continued to be exhibited, invaded Georgia with T-72s and SU-25s.
The chinese make sure any advanced system they have gets in press. It is part of the game.