Speed Work: Does It Work?

Training Powerlifting
41

I’m actually kinda proud this place didn’t turn into a giant poo fight like the rest of the interwebz did when the first article (and 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th… etc) was posted.

Despite the notable objections by several senior, strong members of this forum (MattyXL, Detazathoth, etc.), as well as Mike T & Chad Wesley Smith, I will continue doing speed work because I feel it helps me. I’d encourage any lifters that are unsure of the merits of this particular strength training method to do their own assessment. And also to recognize that whatever they happen to choose, they are in good company.

42

[quote]frankjl wrote:
I’m actually kinda proud this place didn’t turn into a giant poo fight like the rest of the interwebz did when the first article (and 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th… etc) was posted.

Despite the notable objections by several senior, strong members of this forum (MattyXL, Detazathoth, etc.), as well as Mike T & Chad Wesley Smith, I will continue doing speed work because I feel it helps me. I’d encourage any lifters that are unsure of the merits of this particular strength training method to do their own assessment. And also to recognize that whatever they happen to choose, they are in good company.[/quote]

43

[quote]frankjl wrote:
I’m actually kinda proud this place didn’t turn into a giant poo fight like the rest of the interwebz did when the first article (and 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th… etc) was posted.

Despite the notable objections by several senior, strong members of this forum (MattyXL, Detazathoth, etc.), as well as Mike T & Chad Wesley Smith, I will continue doing speed work because I feel it helps me. I’d encourage any lifters that are unsure of the merits of this particular strength training method to do their own assessment. And also to recognize that whatever they happen to choose, they are in good company.[/quote]

And that my friend, is a beautiful thing.

I do believe in the merits of a sort of speed work, I found that plyometrics i.e. Depth Jumps, Reactive Chest passes help make me become more explosive. So I made it a part of methodology. I just found Mike T’s stuff just interesting, I didn’t think it merited a shitstorm. Oh well, training can be hyperbole unfortunately.

44

For the record frankjl, I skimmed through the social media shitstorms… oh my, I feel embarrassed as a Powerlifter. Seeing all this hatred and hyperbole being typed up… that these people are suppose to be our peers no less.

Shameful. And that goes for both sides.

45

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
For the record frankjl, I skimmed through the social media shitstorms… oh my, I feel embarrassed as a Powerlifter. Seeing all this hatred and hyperbole being typed up… that these people are suppose to be our peers no less.

Shameful. And that goes for both sides.[/quote]

Good post. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.

For the record, I like speed work but think the regular percentages are too low unless you are geared. When you look at all of Wendler’s old articles from elite (back when they were all about westside) he specifically mentions adding at least 10% to the percentages for raw guys.

46

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
It should also be noted that, for “westside” guys, DE days are some of the only times the actual lift (or close to the actual lift) is practiced. If you spend much of your time doing variations, it’s good to do some work on the actual lift for “greasing the grove” at least.[/quote]

EXACTLY, when i lift westside ( i have to modify it at my stupid campus gym) speed day helps me keep the bench form intact and the chains and bands really teach you to explode and that really helps drive threw lockout on regular flat bench. Whenever i come back to school after summer my reps are slower because i dont have the practice of firing at full speed.

47

Fundemental errors with both arguements:

For the “Speed Work Doesn’t Work” camp:

Dynamic efforts (speed strength) use low %'s for bar weight… with 20% to 30% added in accommodating resistance. So, relatively, speed work is done with 70% to 95% of a competitions max, depedning on the wave. Those percents are well within the Maximum Force weight range that is being presented. When done correctly, speed work is heavy as shit.

For the “Speed Work is The Bee’s Knee’s” camp:

Without exact, precise, flawless form, the high volume demand of DE squats with a box can seriously screw up your power out of the hole for a raw lifter. It works great for geared guys because they can simulate competition like weights without competition gear. Since the force curve for a raw lifter is basically a big middle finger from gravity, there may be some better options for force development as a meet approaches.

Personally, I am going to do what is going to make me stronger. For a while, as a drug-free predominantly raw lifter, speed work blew my total up for about 2 years. Since then, injury and accommodation has slowed my gains down. So, I am going to start changing some things up but still use the fundemental Westside Principles that I have been using for the last couple years. Every program works and every program doesn’t work. Following anything like this with the enthusiasm of a religious zealot is going to seriously cloud your judgement and limit your gains.

My main point: Who fucking cares what anyone else does? If you don’t agree with the way someone is training, just get stronger than them using your methods, accept your trophy with a smile on your face, and don’t big a dickhead about it.

48

[quote]frankjl wrote:
I’m actually kinda proud this place didn’t turn into a giant poo fight like the rest of the interwebz did when the first article (and 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th… etc) was posted.

Despite the notable objections by several senior, strong members of this forum (MattyXL, Detazathoth, etc.), as well as Mike T & Chad Wesley Smith, I will continue doing speed work because I feel it helps me. I’d encourage any lifters that are unsure of the merits of this particular strength training method to do their own assessment. And also to recognize that whatever they happen to choose, they are in good company.[/quote]

Agreed, its nice to see the PL section has a level of maturity where everyone can respectfully disagree.

49

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
What I AM saying is that I understand physics behind F=ma. But I’m telling you that in all the data I’ve collected, I don’t see the real life force production in highly submaximal weights. That holds true with the straight-weight work and also when using accommodation. I’m sorry if that upsets some folks, but I’m just reporting the numbers.
[/quote]

I think it is wise to first clarify what speed work “works” actually can/should refer to.

As far as I understand it, speed work “works” if it
(1) makes the CNS more efficient at stimulating high(er) threshold motor units,
(2) it maximize the number of motor units activated, and
(3) improves the discharge frequency of those motor units.

The typical approach to get stronger is to lift heavy weights (80%+ of 1RM). Why? Because the force required to move that amount of weight basically ensures that we max out the used pool of available motor units (2) and probably achieve (1) + (3) on top of that.

I think the only way to measure if speed work actually works in practice is to look at the actual force (resp., acceleration) produced, since the other factors or not observable. So I guess speed work “works” if we can achieve similar levels of force by accelerating the lighter weight appropriately.

I personally haven’t measured things but it seems the OP has collected data and found that the amount of force is not sufficient. Correct? [/quote]

That is what Mike T said in his follow up to the original Speed Work article.[/quote]

Ok, didn’t read those and the “discussions” elsewhere.

However, I can imagine that a large group of people get all butthurt when somebody criticize the ol’ mighty Loui/Westside. I for one don’t see why people put Loui/Westside on a pedestal in the first place. I think he doesn’t deserve half the credit he gets if you look at what he actually contributed as far as ideas go. People seemed to like the whole aura surrounding the Westside gym more than anything - similar to Wendler’s stuff.

50

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Agreed, its nice to see the PL section has a level of maturity where everyone can respectfully disagree.
[/quote]

Shut up jerk…

Just doing my part to help get us back inline with the rest of the internet. This place is becoming a love fest in here.

Speed work using the traditional 50% rule did nothing for my meet attempts. But volume at higher percentages (70ish) seems to have helped me a lot. I try to do every rep as fast as possible so I suppose technically it is speed work.

james

51

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Fundemental errors with both arguements:

For the “Speed Work Doesn’t Work” camp:

Dynamic efforts (speed strength) use low %'s for bar weight… with 20% to 30% added in accommodating resistance. So, relatively, speed work is done with 70% to 95% of a competitions max, depedning on the wave. Those percents are well within the Maximum Force weight range that is being presented. When done correctly, speed work is heavy as shit.

For the “Speed Work is The Bee’s Knee’s” camp:

Without exact, precise, flawless form, the high volume demand of DE squats with a box can seriously screw up your power out of the hole for a raw lifter. It works great for geared guys because they can simulate competition like weights without competition gear. Since the force curve for a raw lifter is basically a big middle finger from gravity, there may be some better options for force development as a meet approaches.

Personally, I am going to do what is going to make me stronger. For a while, as a drug-free predominantly raw lifter, speed work blew my total up for about 2 years. Since then, injury and accommodation has slowed my gains down. So, I am going to start changing some things up but still use the fundemental Westside Principles that I have been using for the last couple years. Every program works and every program doesn’t work. Following anything like this with the enthusiasm of a religious zealot is going to seriously cloud your judgement and limit your gains.

My main point: Who fucking cares what anyone else does? If you don’t agree with the way someone is training, just get stronger than them using your methods, accept your trophy with a smile on your face, and don’t big a dickhead about it.[/quote]

What you’ve described was my experience with speed work for my squat – rapid increases in both my equipped and raw squat, though the increases were more in my equipped squat. I’m not sure what it was about the speed bench, but it just didn’t do it for me from a raw bench perspective. It definitely increased my shirted bench, but my raw bench stayed roughly the same. It was only when I dropped it in favor of higher percentages with straight weight that my raw bench started going up again.

52

“the force curve for a raw lifter is basically a big middle finger from gravity”

I’m logging that quote away. I think I might print that out and hang it over my squat rack.

53

I don’t know about you all, but I just lift the fucking weight. Really fast. That usually makes me faster.

54

[quote]brauny96 wrote:
I don’t know about you all, but I just lift the fucking weight. Really fast. That usually makes me faster.[/quote]

And I think this can work for a lot of people. Maybe even most, I dunno. But some people need extra or more work on certain aspects, just like any other sport.

55

Thats mostly sarcasm, because this topic has made more of a stir than gay marriage. Im a raw lifter like most people. Raw lifting is as simple as using a rack, bench, and power bar. But yet people get so caught up in a “trend” or a program. They see science and think, “wow this is gonna make me so strong” when in reality, you just busted your ass. Most people would thing doing speed work is more beneficial than doing 6x10 of heavy lat pulldowns, barbell rows, and military presses for moving up your bench. but yet if your shoulders and lats are stronger, you probably put some weight on your bench. Now I know westside is a proven system, but people that arent elite or pro think they have to train that way. Ive gotten so much stronger by just training my ass off and putting size on, than worrying about dynamic effort training, and special exercises. People who are equipped, well thats a different story.

Ill go back to lurking now.

56

[quote]brauny96 wrote:
Thats mostly sarcasm, because this topic has made more of a stir than gay marriage. Im a raw lifter like most people. Raw lifting is as simple as using a rack, bench, and power bar. But yet people get so caught up in a “trend” or a program. They see science and think, “wow this is gonna make me so strong” when in reality, you just busted your ass. Most people would thing doing speed work is more beneficial than doing 6x10 of heavy lat pulldowns, barbell rows, and military presses for moving up your bench. but yet if your shoulders and lats are stronger, you probably put some weight on your bench. Now I know westside is a proven system, but people that arent elite or pro think they have to train that way. Ive gotten so much stronger by just training my ass off and putting size on, than worrying about dynamic effort training, and special exercises. People who are equipped, well thats a different story.

Ill go back to lurking now.[/quote]

You’ll get farther busting your ass in the gym and following a training program based on science than you will just busting your ass every week. Your programming doesn’t matter if you aren’t busting your ass. Conversely, at a certain point just busting your ass is not good enough. Like many lifters, you will hit a plateau and you will have to take a critical look at your training to get past it. You will likely have to use different methods than what you’ve used in the past to break through it.

Look at the top guys in the sport, raw or geared. I’m willing to bet all of them have tried and/or are very familiar with MANY styles of training. They are all students of the sport, willing to adopt methods that they feel will benefit them and throw the other ones to the wayside. The dynamic effort method is one tool in giant toolbox. I agree there are some people who misuse it – but then again there’s always that one jackass that uses a flathead screwdriver for a phillips-head screw.

57

I’m a dirty old bastard who’s been lifting since 1983 when was in 9th grade, way before the internet was around. I’ve lifted drug free and loaded to the gills, raw and geared. Kaz got me interested in strength. During this time I’ve used many programs looking for the one that gave the best results. No other program has worked as well as the conjugate system. For all types of lifting raw or geared, ehhanced or not. When used properly no other program works as well as the conjugate system.

I am not selling anything and believe my opinion is unbiased. I would definitely have to say speed work has helped improved my lifts. When used with max effort and repetion work, it is a unbeatable combination.

Most who say this system doesn’t work are trying to get something from you. Mainly your cash.

I will say when I started using westside programming I was a intermediate lifter with relatively good size and strength levels.

58

I agree with that too. Generally speaking, there’s allot of people on this site who are still novice if not beginning lifters. They will be idiot 100 times over from a power building spit compared to a west side split or accommodating resistance. Worry about building muscle and strength. I learned this the hard way.

59

This may or may not be true, but I was listening to Mark Bell sometime back. His explination for speed work was that simply thee body can’t take max effort work all the time. Speed work was just another way to get under the bar without having to stress the body to much.

60

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Fundemental errors with both arguements:

For the “Speed Work Doesn’t Work” camp:

Dynamic efforts (speed strength) use low %'s for bar weight… with 20% to 30% added in accommodating resistance. So, relatively, speed work is done with 70% to 95% of a competitions max, depedning on the wave. [/quote]

Storm, I’d never heard that accommodating resistance is “necessary” for DE work. Is that in more recent articles, or simply from your own experience?