[quote]Goku_SS4 wrote:
WormwoodTheory wrote:
i hate when people wear hats in church and do curls in the confessional booth.
What if they are Jewish? They have those hats right? But, confessionals are in Cathlic churches yes? Anyway. [/quote]
hmmm.
you tell me.
Loonies.
I leik dis god guy he is all powerful and can turn waterz in to wine he are strong.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
…and for the record, I would only believe this is real or genuine (as far as motive or intent) coming from an elder of the church who has shown an extreme devotion to God. I am not one who believes everyone you hear doing this is being real. I believe some do it for the attention.
[/thread] [/quote]
This is(was) not the point of speaking in tongues. The gift of tongues was given to apostles of Jesus Christ during the Pentacost. Tongues was simply a means of communicating with others who do not speak your language. It was a language that could be understood by everyone in proximity regardless of their native language. Many, including myself, believe it was a gift used for a certain time and for a certain purpose. It is not a gift used today. It was never intended to be used for communication with God. Where you got this information is beyond me. I have scripture I can use to back up my views but nobody gives a rip about scripture on this website.
Every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:6)
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled (1 Corinthians 13:8) Gifts of prophecy and gifts of tongues are not for today.
I’m glad you found that. That passage from acts is the one that the pastor at my church used to school the members of the congregation who believed that they were speaking in tongues.
For what it’s worth, I came away from that with the same impression as you.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Before this thread falls into utter idiocy, it is believed that there is power in spoken word…and also that we live in a realm of both physical and spiritual influence. Speaking in tongues is often used as a way of communication with God in the presence of others without negative influence by either. If you do not even believe in spiritual influence then there is no way you can grasp this concept.[/quote]
This is a common theme in a lot of religions. In Buddhism, the realm of “physical influence” is called Mara, and spiritual influence can be observed through advanced meditation. In Hinduism, yoga forms such as Hatha yoga work on leaving the realm of “physical influence” to prepare for a greater understanding of the spiritual nature of life.
I’m not sure how effective speaking in tounges would be for doing this, but I know that incredible things happen in the world everyday. Personally, I find meditation and yoga just to be really enjoyable so I’ll stick with those before I ramble in church this christmas eve.
[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
I grew up in an Assembly of God church where we spoke in tounges. I was there every week, on Wednesday night and Sunday morning. My grandparents were very active in the church.
I remember being 6 to ~12 and hearing people talk in tounges at church. It was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard, and you could tell they were faking it to fit in. You know what I did? I babbled about something ridiculous in a made up language, so that I could look ‘cool’ and fit in like they did.
I’m glad by 13 I had developed my own brain enough to realize how silly this god character was, and stopped going to church. [/quote]
…Are you Jewish?
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
People in a church I used to attend tried pulling that. I find it to be a ridiculous expression of hysteria, useless at best and generally repulsive.
Corinthians 13:1, and 14:1-25 sum it up pretty well.
[/quote]
Indeed it does seem to sum it up. I think we should focus on this part here from Corinthians 14:18-19; “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.”
It seems that some folks may use this an excuse to speak in tongues. There is much more that I did not know about. It would seem that the one who can somehow interpret this is revered more than the one who actually speaks this; as the one who interprets seems to glorify the church. With the scripture I can see how people can interpret this and maybe want to falsely show their devotion to God, self, or the Church. However, after reading all of the scripture, I am convinced that people just do it because of their interpretation of the scripture. Or to try and show they are glorifying the church or what not.
On a different note, I ask one on the guys I work with who is studying to be a preacher and he told me when he was growing up he spoke in tongues because he thought it was the right thing to do. He said he faked it.
[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
I grew up in an Assembly of God church where we spoke in tounges. I was there every week, on Wednesday night and Sunday morning. My grandparents were very active in the church.
I remember being 6 to ~12 and hearing people talk in tounges at church. It was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard, and you could tell they were faking it to fit in. You know what I did? I babbled about something ridiculous in a made up language, so that I could look ‘cool’ and fit in like they did.
I’m glad by 13 I had developed my own brain enough to realize how silly this god character was, and stopped going to church. [/quote]
With the risk of getting completly off topic here. I believe in evolution. Evolution, that God used it as a tool to get us to where we are now. I do not feel that we all just flew in here and poof we are as we are now. But, I digress…
I do feel it is a faked way to fit in. If you take the time to read the scripture that was posted here it makes more sense.
While certainly some fake it, as personal opinion I am convinced that some are sincere and are not consciously faking.
There is, however, such as thing as being sincerely mistaken.
Glossolalia (to use the technical term) also appears in shamanism, paganism, and voodoo; it has been demonstrated that it can be rapidly learned by most people; and it has been demonstrated that where Pentecostal preachers have influenced churches not previously exposed to it who then adopt the practice, their vocalization patterns are related to his with high frequency.
(Yes, there has been serious linguistic study of this, always finding it to not have the full characteristics of language.)
All these things indicate that the mind can enter a state where nonsense syllables can be generated in manners sounding just like what is in question here.
Lastly, those who speak in tongues almost or perhaps actually invariably use only phonemes already known to them, whereas other actual languages invariably have additional or differently made sounds. It is unreasonable to imagine, if granting angelic languages, that angelic language has American Southern pronunciation.
Anyone who is trying to speak or indeed is speaking another actual language adapts his pronunciation, or his accent if you will, towards that of the other language. The overall sound changes markedly.
This doesn’t happen with tongues.
So, if granting that the mind can enter a state that generates nonsense syllables, but a person is taught that this is a spiritual phenomenon, I think it’s fair to state that it could easily happen sincerely.
I have no doubt that some close associates I’ve had in the past, as well as for example the pastor I previously mentioned, were sincere and not faking. Generating it themselves, yes, but not knowingly aware that it didn’t require a spiritual gift or knowingly aware that it was perhaps much sound, it was signifying nothing, in any language.
And thus, since in the KJV from which they obtain the expression “tongue” means language, they were speaking in no tongue. But I am positive they were not aware of that.
The idea of speaking in tongues is not meant to actually make sense, not in the rational mind. But then again, when talking in tongues, you are not speaking to the mind, you are speaking to the spirit. This is a difficult concept to grasp for most people, in that you are not meant to actually think. Most people have a difficult time grasping things that exist while not seen, for the idea of tongues is meant to convey the idea that things must be understood in the unseen (faith) before they can be seen (in the flesh). You have to see it in your mind and spirit, before you see it in front of you.
I put it down to a bad acid trip. Maybe good depending on how you see it.
One could also make the argument that, if one is really nutty enough to believe he has a close relationship with God, he’s nutty enough to say just about anything.
It’s telling to see how so many people try to defend this nonsense. Makes me sad and also a little bit angry.
I guess you can have your “spiritual experience”, as long as I can observe your frolicking in ignorance. This way, we both get something out of it.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
It’s telling to see how so many people try to defend this nonsense. Makes me sad and also a little bit angry.
I guess you can have your “spiritual experience”, as long as I can observe your frolicking in ignorance. This way, we both get something out of it.
[/quote]
What amazes me is the number of atheists who feel that not believing in God also gives them carte blanche to verbally abuse Christians.
I’m not necessarily pointing the finger at you.
An interesting question I’d never considered before is, I suppose it is the case that in Pentecostal churches as in at least several other denominations, it’s not extremely rare for an adult church member to conclude that while they had thought they had accepted Christ and been saved earlier in life, perhaps in childhood, that really wasn’t the case, and only now have they understood the Gospel for the first time and only now truly accepted Christ.
With, if Pentecostal churches are like several other denominations, the congregation and pastor generally being accepting of this.
Well, what if the person had been speaking in tongues prior to this?
Is he accused or secretly believed of having faked it all the time?
How does the person feel, if they know they were not faking? (Not making any conscious effort but, so to speak, observing it happening or having it "just come out naturally.)
What does it seem like to everyone when they continue speaking in tongues with the same phrases after being saved as before? (Which I expect would commonly be the case.)
Or is the doctrine that it is possible to have this spiritual gift before actually accepting Christ and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? I don’t see how that would be consistent.
It seems to me that this is a situation that would have to come up, and ought to be quite relevant to any rational thought about whether glossolalia is a spiritual gift, and the same thing spoken of in the Bible, or not.
ZEB, you’re doing right to point the finger at me.
I’m speaking out because speaking in tongues is lunacy .
Like so often, you claim victimhood, EVEN when we’re narrowing the discussion down to a distinct phenomenon.
But because it perfectly displays the structural madness behind the whole, you feel guilty and subconciously decide it’s time to launch a counter attack.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
I put it down to a bad acid trip. Maybe good depending on how you see it.[/quote]
Actually there is a good chance that you are close on this one. There are a lot of concepts that we see accross numerous religions that seem to have at there base the aim of putting people into a hypnotic euphoric state. Singing hyms whilst standing for long periods, repeating tracts of monotonous text, chanting, drumming, dancing, special breathing techniques, all of these are ways of putting you into that state.
Endorphines are released into your body making you feel good and you can even get into a state where you hallucinate. Being part of a large group during this process aids the situation. Aldus Huxley wrote a fair amount about this in The Doors of Perception.
I am not in any way implying that the Priests, tribal elders, or participants are insincere. And in no way does this prove that there is no god. (same argument as is used around evolution, there is nothing to stop there being a God who uses the science to get to his aims.)
Cockney is right here.
We talk about religious roots, which always find their way back into big religions.
For example, the longing for a caring mother goddess is so strong, Maria “Mother of God” stepped in to be worshipped in Catholicism. The thing is, she has no fundamental place there -as does the idiotic Tonguespeak-, yet in Italy (capital of the mamma’s boys) praying to the “real” god is practically unheard of.
Speaking in tongues represents the same thing a 200bpm worshipping, LSD-tripping raver strives for.
It is not more or less holy.
The idiotic hypocrisy begins when you try it to link it to a ~2500 year old, semitic goat herders’ sect and it’s ghoulish idol.
[quote]bpeloquin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…and for the record, I would only believe this is real or genuine (as far as motive or intent) coming from an elder of the church who has shown an extreme devotion to God. I am not one who believes everyone you hear doing this is being real. I believe some do it for the attention.
[/thread]
This is(was) not the point of speaking in tongues. The gift of tongues was given to apostles of Jesus Christ during the Pentacost. Tongues was simply a means of communicating with others who do not speak your language. It was a language that could be understood by everyone in proximity regardless of their native language. Many, including myself, believe it was a gift used for a certain time and for a certain purpose. It is not a gift used today. It was never intended to be used for communication with God. Where you got this information is beyond me. I have scripture I can use to back up my views but nobody gives a rip about scripture on this website.
Every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:6)
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled (1 Corinthians 13:8) Gifts of prophecy and gifts of tongues are not for today.
[/quote]
Just so you know, my father is a preacher. I am well aware of that scripture but does THIS look like the place to get into a discussion about this? The moment I would have mentioned anything about prophecy, this thread would get overrun by atheists who feel the need to berate belief in a higher power every single chance they get.
I kept my answer very simple and “white-washed” for a reason. I think the real question is why you didn’t understand this and needed some explanation when it is blatantly clear that I am right about how these people act.
If any of you actually want to discuss these things, QUIT TALKING ABOUT THEM HERE AND FIND A WEBSITE THAT HAS THAT FOCUS.
I am sick of the discussion on this forum concerning this because I know for a fact most of the people berating my intellect or knowledge base are far less intelligent or informed than they seem to think they are making going back and forth with them a waste of my time.