I’m thoroughly confused about soy protein now. This comes from an article in elitefitness.com:
Animal research suggests some great advantages of using soy protein isolate as a bodybuilding supplement. Research has shown that the isoflavone daidzein found in soy-protein isolate might have a gender specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone production. Lab animals experienced testosterone and growth hormone excretion as well as muscle growth in males, while the female animals experienced a decrease in these hormones and fat loss.
Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy that acts as a potent phyto-estrogen. It is structurally a very weak “pseudo-estrogen” (about 1000 times weaker than the body’s primary estrogen estradiol). This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for available receptor sites to “bind” to. By binding to the receptor sites daidzein then “blocks” the stronger estrogens from binding to and activating receptor sites. With the daidzein isolflavone attached, estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body. Many researchers believe this effect is the reason soy protein is linked to a reduction in the risk for many forms of breast, endometrial, and prostate cancer. This mechanism works similarly to the prescription drug Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)–an anti-estrogen staple in the bodybuilding community.
Basically what it’s saying is that because soy has phyto-estrogen, it’s good for you. The way they rationalise this, it almost makes sense, but I’d like somebody with some solid bio-knowledge to chime in.
Yes, science is hard and no one has all of the answers about soy. Like anything else, the potential risks have to be measured against the potential benefits.
I know whey and casein are good for me and that there are no known downsides. So why screw around with soy. Even if soy is “good,” it’s not so good that it’s worth the risks.
To get a bit more speculative, who it might be good for may depend a little bit on the hormonal status of the individuals involved.
Young individuals who aren’t producing hormones could still face negatives effects even by various sources of “weak estrogen” mimics.
Definitely an interesting topic and certainly a supplement that has been on the market for a long time for various reasons (i.e. for women in particular). So, if it turns out to be true, it will be difficult to remove it from the market.
I actually put all of my beginner gains on with soy. At age 22 I went from 159 to 185 with it. It can’t be that bad because it didn’t have any deleterious effect. These days I eat real food and supplement 1 scoop of whey per day PWO. I do find it is superior PWO.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Yes, science is hard and no one has all of the answers about soy. Like anything else, the potential risks have to be measured against the potential benefits.[/quote]
I am aware that Science is hard (actually, it isn’t, but let’s pretend it is); however, I cannot measure potential benefits against potential risks. What I can do, is measure real benefits against real risks. Unfortunately, nobody seems to agree on what soy’s phyto estrogens actually do to your body, which means I cannot make an informed decision.
In view of the fact that we don’t know the real risks associated with soy, or its benefits, I stay away from it. But, I would like to find out one day whether I did the right thing or not.
Soy might have pro-estrogen properties but theres a little bit of over-reaction here becasue having a little bit of soy in your diet is not going to make your estrogen level go through the roof from what I gathered. Maybe if soy was your staple protein and you didnt ingest a blend of other proteins it would be bad but taking just whey isnt that great either.
I might do a little research myself and if I see more of what the article said I might try adding a little bit of soy protein to my diet for a month or two and see.
[quote]Miserere wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Yes, science is hard and no one has all of the answers about soy. Like anything else, the potential risks have to be measured against the potential benefits.
I am aware that Science is hard (actually, it isn’t, but let’s pretend it is); however, I cannot measure potential benefits against potential risks. What I can do, is measure real benefits against real risks. Unfortunately, nobody seems to agree on what soy’s phyto estrogens actually do to your body, which means I cannot make an informed decision.
I know whey and casein are good for me and that there are no known downsides. So why screw around with soy. Even if soy is “good,” it’s not so good that it’s worth the risks.
In view of the fact that we don’t know the real risks associated with soy, or its benefits, I stay away from it. But, I would like to find out one day whether I did the right thing or not.
Think.
Thanks.[/quote]
You can measure potential benefits against potential risks. Whey and casein: no known or suspected homronal effects but provide high quality protein with good amino acid profiles that can help build muscle and reach calorie goals.
Soy protein: contradictory data on whether it’s estrogenic or detrimental or can have an additional benefit via positive effects on hormones. Since muscle is built just fine on non-soy protein, I personally choose to use that rather than soy, when it is not clear what impact soy has on hormones.
[quote]GreenTerror79 wrote:
Soy might have pro-estrogen properties but theres a little bit of over-reaction here becasue having a little bit of soy in your diet is not going to make your estrogen level go through the roof from what I gathered. Maybe if soy was your staple protein and you didnt ingest a blend of other proteins it would be bad but taking just whey isnt that great either.
I’m sure a bit of soy isn’t going to burst out the bitch-tits on you, but the article was actually quite anti-whey/pro-soy.
I might do a little research myself and if I see more of what the article said I might try adding a little bit of soy protein to my diet for a month or two and see. [/quote]
Article is very interesting, the sources seem a bit old but thats not necessarily a bad thing. I think if soy was that good though we wouldnt have overlooked it so long becasue just like the article said once a supplement company figured out soy protein cost less they’d jump on it and market all these benfits. So I am still a bit skeptical, but trying it out wouldnt hurt.
Regardless of the phyto-estrogen issues aside, common knowledge is that eggs, milk, then red meats (in that order) are far superior proteins (first class) in terms of absorption, etc. Vegetable proteins are at the bottom of the list.
Soy extracts have done more for my back pain than anything else combined (Advil, SAMe, MSM, glucosamine, chondroitin, fish oils, copper, magnesium, ART, physio, hip flexor and piriformis stretching, etc…). It’s been short of a miracle. I think I’ll stay with it.
Another good question is how much do you need for those effects? You may actually be taking in enough from the processed foods in your diet. Most of the chicken products at subway are padded with it, say 10g per serve… so i wouldnt worry about supplementing if you eat there regulary.
[quote]Beatnik wrote:
Another good question is how much do you need for those effects? You may actually be taking in enough from the processed foods in your diet. Most of the chicken products at subway are padded with it, say 10g per serve… so i wouldnt worry about supplementing if you eat there regulary.[/quote]
