SOY, I Know, But Please Look!

Nutrition
1

I know soy has been discussed here and I have been reading the T-Nation articles on soy which is why I am very concerned.

So for myself I am going to pretty much just drink water, which is what I do now, anyways, my wife is very lactose intolerant and is pregnant with our 2nd.

My 2.5 daughter has been raised on soy and loves it and will not even drink milk. Which by they way I am not a big fan of either becuase of all the added hormones and other stuff in it and such but that is a different topic. So is everyone saying that soy is really THAT bad??

Becuase we were going to buy a soymilk maker next week so we could save some money, becuase we buy Silk brand and it is usually 3.75 a HALF gallon. Anyways, if anyone would please offer some more advice on this topic I would REALLY appreciate it.

I don’t know what my wife will be able to drink if she can’t have soy, she has tried other stuff and soy makes her stomach feel better. If she has an upset stomach for example.

Thanks,

2

You could try Almond Milk. I have not tried it, but I have heard good things about it and it can substitute for milk in recipes and such too.

It is lactate free.

3

This isn’t a decision you can make for your wife, and concerning your daughter you both need to agree. Your best bet is to gather up all the soy articles, let her read them, and then discuss the issue.

4

I think some of the material is a little bit overexaggerated. That goes for both “soy is a health food” and “soy is something everyone should always avoid.”

Although I’d err on the side of caution. There was one interview article where a female doctor (I think) said it had been known to cause birth defects that were, well, scary.

There’s also lactose free or altogether-carb-free milk, tastes great I think.

I respect you for trying to make the right decision.

5

[quote]conwict wrote:
I think some of the material is a little bit overexaggerated. That goes for both “soy is a health food” and “soy is something everyone should always avoid.”

Although I’d err on the side of caution.[/quote]

Agreed. While there still may be some grey areas, I wouldn’t take the risk.

By the way, this is the article mentioned:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459516

6

I personally dont think I will be letting my kids live off of Soy formula when I have them. Even if the risk of genital abnormalities, early onset puberty and a host of other things is small, its not worth it to me. Just use regular formula or milk.

7

[quote]LeoDeSol wrote:
You could try Almond Milk. I have not tried it, but I have heard good things about it and it can substitute for milk in recipes and such too.

It is lactate free.[/quote]

i’m lactose intolerant and i use almond milk (unsweetened) for everything. you can always add your own natural sweetener to make it more palatable for the kiddies if you wish.

8

Why do you think france has stated that baby food with soy should only be used as a last resort?

9

I’d go with almond milk, rice milk (neither of which ive tried but both of which people use as a soy substitute) or lactose free milk, which is like normal milk with lactase or something added. Can get it organic too I think.

10

First, at 2.5 your daughter is no longer an infant so the infant formula vs. mother’s milk studies several comments are reacting to isn’t really relevant to your situation. Second, many cultures depend on soy for their staple protein source and they don’t have problems with genital development problems.

I’d be more worried about what gets in non-organic milk and meat as a health risk, especially in children due (hormones & dioxin found in much milk are both carcinogenic and powerful developmental problems). Third, the cancer/cardio protective effects of soy is most likely from its consumption by pre- and peri-menstrual women.

It has been implicated in higher levels of hormone-dependent cancers in menopausal women in our culture, but interestingly not in Asian cultures because of the earlier beneficial effects.

I think there is a slight overreaction on these fora because the body building types want to avoid phyto-estrogens at all cost for their physique goals. There has been a focus on any negatives and a neglect of the positives. Soy in moderation as part of a diverse diet is going to fine for a young girl from everything I’ve read, and certainly at least as healthy as the alternatives.

Almond and rice milk are two alternatives. I’m not sure if you can find organic almond milk (I don’t recall seeing any) as the almond market is fairly tightly controlled by a cartel of almond growers who don’t seem all that interested in growing organically. Still, I’d be most concerned with the dioxins, hormones, and antibiotics in cows milk (esp. other than skim), so organic will be most critical for that.

I’d still recommend it for soy (and rice), as I live in soy country and know all the crap they dump on soybean fields. Again, moderation, diversity, and minimizing exposure to pesticides, herbicides, environmental pollutants, hormones, and antibiotics in a child’s food is probably the most prudent course.

11

[quote]dkm365 wrote:
Second, many cultures depend on soy for their staple protein source and they don’t have problems with genital development problems.
[/quote]

really, which ones? please quote a study or the reasoning behind your proposition because the intake data i have seen point to there being no such culture or intake patterns other than perhaps the western world’s granola culture of the last few decades.

i also have no problems with genital development problems as long as they are not my own (thankfully i got a pass there - mom eats meat like a proper villan) or my girlfriends’ (kinda shallow, eh?).

to the OP:

i don’t know how bad your wife’s lactose intolerance is, but i have had many people who cannot drink milk do fine with low carb Metabolic Drive. i think that main issue is to make sure that protein needs are met and that the rest of the intake complements the protein source to provide all the micronutrients needed.

this is by far where i have seen most people screw up, they have a nice balanced plan macronutrient wise, but if you look at vitamins and minerals, many times they are lacking in a few or more quite significantly.

12

[quote]ubl0 wrote:
dkm365 wrote:
Second, many cultures depend on soy for their staple protein source and they don’t have problems with genital development problems.

really, which ones? please quote a study or the reasoning behind your proposition because the intake data i have seen point to there being no such culture or intake patterns other than perhaps the western world’s granola culture of the last few decades. [/quote]

Um, how about many East Asian countries, especially before the recent inroads of modern fast food diets. There are a whole host of studies looking at the question of whether soy is or is not responsible for certain health differences between our population and Asian populations because of the latter’s very high soy protein consumption.

The only places I have seen that dispute high soy consumption in East Asia are a small group of individuals and “groups” that make fairly radical claims that misread or overdraw conclusions from a small number of studies. I say “groups” because there are some dubious funding sources with axes to grind against soy products (e.g., Am. Dairy Assoc., Weston Price Foundation).

What genital development problems? There is just not a good body of sound epidemiological or animal/human experimental studies that suggest this. Soy is like most other fruits and vegetables, neither a miracle food nor a dangerous food.

Eaten in moderation (like any food should), and preferable in a less processed form, like most fruits and vegetables it probably has mild overall positive health effects.

Would I feed my infant soy-based infant formula? Not a chance if I could help it, as it uses concentrates of certain soy components totally out of proportion with whole soy (genistein is the isoflavone cited), and cannot replace human breast milk in other important ways (I also wouldn’t use dairy-based formula if I could help it either).

I’m also skeptical of the health of feeding highly processed food to anyone on a regular basis, but especially as the mainstay of an infant’s diet. The evidence even on genistein when fed to animals by itself is at worst, inconclusive on developmental questions, and no soy-based formula is anywhere near the concentration of genistein in the diet used in the studies I’ve seen, and soy milk is not concentrated soy isoflavones, let alone concentrated genistein.

It is interesting to note that in most East Asian countries they consume more soy (other than now possibly soy oil in this country) throughout their lifetime than we do, but not during infancy. We do the opposite, feeding soy components to infants, and then not much over a lifetime.

Is soy estrogenic? We just do not know conclusively, as it seems that it can act as estrogenic and anti-estrogenic (or better an estrogen antagonist, that competes with human estrogen for the estrogen receptors in our body). For instance, it seems to behave differently in pre- and peri-menopausal women. Almost all fruits and vegetables contain phyto-estrogens btw.

My view is moderation, prefer foods closer to their natural state rather than processed, eat a diverse diet, and eat clean foods (esp. limiting non-organic animal fats). And, yes I break some of these in using whey protein products as part of my training. OK, I have been known to very occasionally sneak a donut (mmmm donut) and I like a beer or glass of wine now and then :slight_smile:

13

"Um, how about many East Asian countries, especially before the recent inroads of modern fast food diets. There are a whole host of studies looking at the question of whether soy is or is not responsible for certain health differences between our population and Asian populations because of the latter’s very high soy protein consumption. The only places I have seen that dispute high soy consumption in East Asia are a small group of individuals and “groups” that make fairly radical claims that misread or overdraw conclusions from a small number of studies. I say “groups” because there are some dubious funding sources with axes to grind against soy products (e.g., Am. Dairy Assoc., Weston Price Foundation). "

From my understanding - which may be wrong - is that soy was initially fertilizer, then sort of food occasionally, but generally not over approx 30gm soy protein a day - at the high end. Obviously, eating epic quantities of ‘tofurkey’ and such would be far greater amounts than this. Regardless, perhaps it’s irrational, but I’m not big on eating something with a component that has oestrogen in the name :slight_smile:

Not trying to be arguementative here but while there may be interest groups bashing on soy for political reasons, there are many other groups promoting it for the same reasons. I would just tend to err on the side of caution.

Check out ‘The Whole Soy Story’ or an article like that.

Nb. It’s not an accident that TC’s recent article was entitled the ‘Soy Awards’

DC

14

On the initially a fertilizer claim, yes you are wrong. In China, yes. But not most other East Asian societies. If you are getting your info from “The Whole Soy Story,” then you are getting it from a very dubious source that is on a mission to discredit any challenge to the beliefs of a small group of nutritional extremists centered around the Weston A. Price foundation.

You’ll get no argument that those who profit from the sale of soy products have overhyped soy health claims, hence my it is not a miracle food comment. The problem is that excess and irresponsible claims on one side do not justify excess and irresponsible claims in reaction. They require the critical scrutiny, better science, and not having a counter agenda. Unfortunately, Dr. Daniel’s Whole Soy Story is not any of these latter things, and full of the excess and irresponsibility.

She is one of the individual I was referring to in my previous post. Daniel is on the board of the Weston Price Foundation, follows heavily on the work of Sally Fallon, Sue Enig, et al, who founded this foundation. The Price Foundation’s mission is to promote the extreme beliefs of a 1930s Cleveland dentist (Price) that health could only be gained from eating nutrient dense and the “vital fat-soluble activators found exclusively in animal products.” It sees it as its mission to bash any diet not based almost entirely on animal products. It of course disregards any of the thousands of reams of scientific studies that outline the danger of this approach.

The “Whole Soy Story” is based on half-truths, and unfounded claims, overdrawing findings of studies, overgeneralizing, selective reporting of information, and failing to subject the promoted alternatives to critical scrutiny. It tries to claim that the scientists conducting just about any study that has findings which suggest health benefits to soy are in the soy industries pockets even when the studies are clearly undertaken by serious, credible scientists and funded by clearly neutral parties like the National Institutes of Health.

We are talking about a bean, not a cure-all or a poison. It is just a bean. It is one food among many that can be part of a healthy diet. If you look at the work of credible scientists and nutritionists who are not compromised by funding or affiliation to groups on an extremist mission, you will see that they overwhelmingly say that soy in moderation and preferably in its whole food form can be part of a healthy diet.

And, danchubb, if you want to err on the side of caution (which is certainly a good instinct), then you will have to read up on all the alternatives to soy as well and then weigh the relative possible risks and benefits. Have you?

15

No, I haven’t - I’ve been too busy with uni work, though not eating soy isn’t hard for me as I dislike tofu and hate soy milk =)

While I don’t claim to be well read on the topic - in fact I’m woefully underread if that’s a ‘word’ - my supposition is that almond milk as an example, or organic cows milk, could be better. Not that I drink a lot of milk at all anymore.

Regardless, I completely agree that it is A). Far from cut and dried and B). full of a huge number of competing interests on either side. As such, I take ANYTHING I read about it with a grain of salt - it has created a lot of extremist reactions from both sides.

If you know of any good literature that presents a relatively unbiased view I’d be more than happy to read up on it.

16

Sorry danchubb. I wish I knew of a good review that would be perceived as unbiased. I suspect that most publishers and editors aren’t all that keen on publishing something like “Soy: It’s Just a Bean Folks,” or “Soy: The Evidence Leans a Bit to the Good Side, but With Some Caveats,” or “Soy: Not Bad, Not Great.”

Controversy sells books, magazines, and newspapers. And most of those people who take the time to write about the subject in terms the layperson can read have a dog in that hunt.

17

Valid. I’ll let you know if when I’m browsing I find something =)

18

First off, i have to say that as of a couple days ago i would have been more than suspicious of soy because of quotes from The Whole Soy Story. In fact, my class was having a presentation on Soy protein, and i was on the debating end, so i am now a bit less swayed on the subject, and a little embarrassed.

After looking at my sources, i feel kind of like an idiot for quoting somebody who doesn’t have the best credentials. Dr. Daniel’s was accredited through one of those online institutions more or less for her Phd. She is termed a Certified Clinicial Nutritionist. Which yes is a nice title, but it does not qualify her to be a Registered Dietician, which is where you would find somebody who works in the clinical setting more often than not. One thing i learned at my school is that anybody who picks up a food label and reads it can be considered a “nutritionist”. For future refrence, somebody who calls themselves a Certified Nutritionist was certified online. Something to think about.

Yes, the asian countries consume the stuff, but it is mostly the fermented form, which is better tolerated by the body. In fact, they usually paired it with a meat source, which is helpful in how the body utilizes it, rather than eating it alone.

From my personal extensive research, soy protein has given split results when tested for its effect on cancer, heart disease, etc.
There is not enough of anything to take it off the market in other words. The American Heart Association gave the encouragement for people to consume 25g a day for better heart health. But it really only has shown to lower LDL (bad cholesterol) by maybe 3%, but only with high doses of about 45g or more. That doesn’t seem like much for us, but on the average person’s diet i guess it is a bit dense.

Altogether as a replacement to animal proteins and dairy, yes, it is a good alternative. If you are a post-menopausal woman, then i would exercise caution. This was one of the only studies done that really showed higher correlation of risk. Women that are still developing are shown to benefit from soy protein, but it is possible that the opposite is true for post-menopausal women.
Also, the French and Israeli governments actually STRONGLY warn against using soy formulas for infants, apparently they have seen connections to ulcerative colitis and similar ailments.

And if you still want to buy the book, or already own it, look up some of the studies that Dr. Daniels’ quotes, apparently some of them gave quite different results than what she leads you to believe, and thus they don’t support her argument.

I strongly recommend that people do some of their own research, just be careful of what you find. Many people may be doctors, but they post their own opinions more often than not, whether or not they are qualified. And others are just biased. Try to find a reliable source that is peer-reviewed, medical journals, etc. Pub med is a good one.

Here is one site i found interesting that swayed me a bit on soy at first, i am still unsure of its reliability. It is a copy of a letter of protest written by two researchers for the FDA approved statment for that whole “25g soy protein a day” thing. Let me know what you think, i am always up for new information or thoughts.

http://heartspring.net/soy_products_milk_nuts.html

Honestly, i am still a little cautious about soy protein. I am an avid carnivore so i can’t say a whole lot more there, but, if there is the slightest possibility of something having a negative effect on one’s health, i am going to avoid it. I would just be careful of the processed stuff you find in protein bars and the such. Okay, i think i’m done now, i hope this isn’t too jumbled together.

19

I drink soy milk, because milk bothers me. However, I just limit myself to 1-2 servings a day. If you do that you should be fine. Also, I use soy isolate protein, because I’m allergic to whey. If you’re consuming large quantities of soy I would be concerned, but if you limit yourself to just 1-3 servings a day I doubt it’ll effect you negatively. Soy does have some negative effects, but again, it’s all relative to how much you consume.

I’ve seen a million different opinions on soy. Some say it’s poison and others say it’s a super food. Chances are it falls somewhere in between. It does have some negatives & positives to it, but I think if you’re eating a balanced diet and not overdoing it with soy you should be okay.

Remember, if you pick and choose facts from studies you can almost prove anything. That’s not to say studies aren’t important, but I don’t think the jury is 100% out when it comes to soy.

20

I recall reading from various sources that a lot of the dangers associated with estrogens from soy products only apply to highly processed soy foods like tofu. I’m not certain what process these foods go though that makes them more harmful, but even the ‘Whole Soy Story’ article seemed to suggest that traditional items like soy sauce were okay.