South Dakota Bans Abortions

[vroom]

I don’t know, I see words like responsibility bandied about, but again, what we believe and feel is appropriate does not necessarily have any bearing on others.

Aside: Surely you do realize that a great deal of the abortions out there are obtained by people who would describe themself as one or another religious denomination?

Anyway, I think talking about responsibility or other means of justifying the coercion of others to behave according to your own standards is a tricky business. I also think the idea that women should be empowered to make decisions concerning their own life and body is important.

Sometimes things happen in the world that we don’t like. Sometimes we have to accept that. Around the world there are all kinds of “bad deeds” taking place. Does anybody care about those like they do this issue?

Would it be appropriate to force people in different countries to live by your own standards and beliefs?

I do agree with the ability to make laws within the constitution, but I think it is difficult to confer importance to pre-differentiated cells as “human” life without relying on a religious interpretation.

Obviously, if you have to rely on a religious interpretation, the problem becomes “which one”.

[sasquatch]

Responsibility takes many shapes and forms. So just when do you get to ‘impose’ responsibility on people.

What about drunk driving?
Murder
Stealing
Beating
Going to school or not
wearing a helmet while motorcycling

there are a litany of things that we are required to be responsible for. Some even claim that the president of the United States was responsible for everything that occurred because of a natural disaster. Funny how responsiblity gets used to ‘justify’ ones position.

[doogie]

Do any of you abortion supporters know a woman who was better off mentally AFTER getting an abortion?

The women I know who had abortions as teens are totally fucked in the head by it now.

[vroom]

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Responsibility takes many shapes and forms. So just when do you get to ‘impose’ responsibility on people.

What about drunk driving?
Murder
Stealing
Beating
Going to school or not
wearing a helmet while motorcycling[/quote]

Did I not say I understand the ability to set laws under the constitution? In any case, the basis of the law in question can be determined.

Murder: Obviously the biggie here, but traditionally limited to those that were already self-aware distinct people.

The rest fall into actions that have known measurable effects on others or society. I’m not sure there are measurable effects on society for loss of an unborn.

So, as an attempt at an answer, you can impose laws on people when the actions that the laws impact have been shown to have a large impact on society. This is a reason, other than religion, to impose rules on behavior.

I understand your viewpoint and I’m not telling you that you shouldn’t have it. Don’t get worked up just because other people have differing viewpoints.

there are a litany of things that we are required to be responsible for. Some even claim that the president of the United States was responsible for everything that occurred because of a natural disaster. Funny how responsiblity gets used to ‘justify’ ones position.

Funny, being in charge confers a measure of responsibility sometimes. Was there any point here?

[anon31651765]

[quote]doogie wrote:
Do any of you abortion supporters know a woman who was better off mentally AFTER getting an abortion?

The women I know who had abortions as teens are totally fucked in the head by it now. [/quote]

But I thought all women did was use it as birth control all the time…

[vroom]

Do any of you abortion supporters know a woman who was better off mentally AFTER getting an abortion?

I knew a woman who was unhappily married and in the process of leaving her husband.

It turns out that in the midst of all this she became pregnant and decided to have an abortion.

I know for years that she was distraught about her decision. It’s something she will have to second guess for the rest of her life.

[doogie]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Do any of you abortion supporters know a woman who was better off mentally AFTER getting an abortion?

I knew a woman who was unhappily married and in the process of leaving her husband.

It turns out that in the midst of all this she became pregnant and decided to have an abortion.

I know for years that she was distraught about her decision. It’s something she will have to second guess for the rest of her life.[/quote]

What do you think should be done to protect women from a lifetime of regret over getting an abortion? Obviously the regret is that they start questioning whether or not they killed their child. That is a horrible weight to bear.

For men to act like they are doing women a favor by protecting their right to possibly someday come to the terrible realization that they killed their child is insane to me.

[cap_nsalty]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
miniross wrote:
Yes, a ban on all those things.

I see it as the way forward.

Teenage pregnancies and overburdened families and communities are the way to go!

Lets all move there.

Is there anything there

I dont know.

No abortion clinics any more.

Damn it, those money making OBGY doctors cant make money out of them abortions now.

What pisses me off is that they think this stops women from getting abortions, when all it does is force this shit underground, and away from regulation.

This becomes far more dangerous to women when its illegal. But no, banning it completely makes everything better.

Thank God there’s only like 10 people in the whole state anyway, and half of them are just driving through…
[/quote]

This isn’t about South Dakota, it’s about gaining a foothold. Personally I don’t think this is an issue that should be decided by the Supreme Court, but I guess I’m just an anti-federalist at heart. I have this crazy idea that people should actually elect the people that make decisions like this, perish the thought.

As for Nephorm’s argument that there’s no evidence that abortion has positive benefits, check out the following paper by Steven Levitt: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf#search=‘steven%20levitt%20abortions’
Food for thought.

[miniross]

[quote]btm62 wrote:
miniross wrote:
No one has a right to life. Like sheep and cows dont, and impala on the serengeti dont, and cod in the sea dont.

Where did this right to life idea begin.

I have no idea.

Your kidding right?[/quote]

No.

[miniross]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
miniross wrote:
ZEB wrote:
miniross wrote:
No one has a right to life. Like sheep and cows dont, and impala on the serengeti dont, and cod in the sea dont.

Where did this right to life idea begin.

I have no idea.

You continue to disappoint me.

Why, because i have no gradiose notions to which i attach myself to. I

I absolutley insist that there is no right to life. what about the millions of unknown miscarriages each year? Does that embryo have a right to life, then to have it dashed because the host body rejected it?

Life is wonderful, yes, but by no means do you have a right to it.

You poor little confused ‘dyslexic’ man: If you do not have a right to your life, then there are no rights at all. We are each ‘endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness’. To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.

An embryo has the DNA structure of a human. It is a person. It therefore has all the rights that all of us who happened to be born already have secured. Abortion is the murder of a human. It is the negation of rights. It is simply Satanic evil.

[/quote]

Didnt it say somewhere in Leviticus that it is not a person until is be endowed with blood (day 17), and did the pope not say that a feotus was not “real” until movement was felt.

Just putting that out there.

[miniross]

[quote]btm62 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
btm62 wrote:
miniross wrote:
No one has a right to life. Like sheep and cows dont, and impala on the serengeti dont, and cod in the sea dont.

Where did this right to life idea begin.

I have no idea.

Your kidding right?

No he’s not kidding!

miniross happens to be one of the kinder Atheists too.

Check out some of harris and pookies comments…

They will send a chill down your back.

I’m thankful to God that folks like these will never be in power in the US.

Pookie and miniross are hardly worth a listen. (As I’m sure many could say about myself also.) so be it. However, their insight seems to be limited to that of a shock dj. Harris has his moments. Its very hard to understand the opposing viewpoint on this issue. I do try. Its hard not to let anger seep in. That too is very frustrating.[/quote]

Thanks, and we dont have shock dj’s here, so i am lost on that one…a career change, perhaps?

What makes you say that? Is it because the views are distinctly at odds with your own? Maybe, but i will actually read all posts ertaining to the discussion. I may disagree completely, but very rarely do i think they are solely inflammatory, especially if they are consistant, like ZEB and FED.

[miniross]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
miniross wrote:
ZEB wrote:
miniross wrote:
No one has a right to life. Like sheep and cows dont, and impala on the serengeti dont, and cod in the sea dont.

Where did this right to life idea begin.

I have no idea.

You continue to disappoint me.

Why, because i have no gradiose notions to which i attach myself to. I

I absolutley insist that there is no right to life. what about the millions of unknown miscarriages each year? Does that embryo have a right to life, then to have it dashed because the host body rejected it?

Life is wonderful, yes, but by no means do you have a right to it.

You poor little confused ‘dyslexic’ man: If you do not have a right to your life, then there are no rights at all. We are each ‘endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness’. To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.

An embryo has the DNA structure of a human. It is a person. It therefore has all the rights that all of us who happened to be born already have secured. Abortion is the murder of a human. It is the negation of rights. It is simply Satanic evil.

[/quote]

No cofusion, enlightenment. I have Humanistic tendencies, but i am not arrogant to think i have a right to this life. Lucky, maybe, but not a right to it. It could be taken away in a second, by a cruel accident that has no way of respecing this so called “right”.

do you think you have a right to your life then?

[orion]

[quote]doogie wrote:

What do you think should be done to protect women from a lifetime of regret over getting an abortion? Obviously the regret is that they start questioning whether or not they killed their child. That is a horrible weight to bear.

For men to act like they are doing women a favor by protecting their right to possibly someday come to the terrible realization that they killed their child is insane to me.
[/quote]

Freedom has a prize?

Women need to be protected because they cannot live with the consequences of their actions?

[ZEB]

[quote]vroom wrote:
I don’t know, I see words like responsibility bandied about, but again, what we believe and feel is appropriate does not necessarily have any bearing on others.[/quote]

Sounds like “relativism” to me vroom.

Now you wouldn’t be “preaching” that would you?

[ZEB]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Do any of you abortion supporters know a woman who was better off mentally AFTER getting an abortion?

I knew a woman who was unhappily married and in the process of leaving her husband.

It turns out that in the midst of all this she became pregnant and decided to have an abortion.

I know for years that she was distraught about her decision. It’s something she will have to second guess for the rest of her life.[/quote]

And we need more of this?

[gojira]

Oh, this is rich. A bunch of guys arguing on the internet about how a woman feels about a decision to terminate a pregnancy. That’s like a bunch of women sitting around talking about erectile dysfunction. Sure we’re involved in the issue, but there is no way we can truly understand how it affects the man unless we have stood in his shoes. Do you really think any of us could ever understand how you feel when you can’t get it up? I dealt with this after my husbands chemo. Although he’s fine now, I’m sure I have no idea of the anguish and fear he was feeling as to whether he would ever be back to normal again.

First of all, I would like to address how some of you are referring to an unwanted pregnancy as an “inconvenience”. That’s like saying having your leg amputated is an inconvenience. Pregnancy is a life altering event, physically, emotionally and legally. Having a child changes the woman’s body and life forever. This decision is one of the most important decisions a woman will make in her lifetime and no government or religious movement should have anything to say about it.

The decision to have the child not only affects the mother, but also the child (a fact many of you seem to be missing). It seems to me that many of you would spare the fetus only to have it born into a world of poverty, abuse and neglect. A slow, torturous death, if not of the body, of the spirit for both the mother and the child.

So the solution is to outlaw abortion, force these women to have these babies and then put them up for adoption? One of the previous posters (may have been Zeb) stated that there are not enough available babies for couples that want to adopt. What he meant to say are there are not enough white, healthy babies available for adoption. How many sick, minority babies have you adopted?

If you religious types value the children so much, why do you want to force women to have kids when they are not ready emotionally or financially? You are so fixated on the fetus that you forget about the life ahead of it. This reminds me of so many women I’ve met who were so fixated on planning a wedding, that the resulting marriage was just an afterthought (and eventually failed).

The fact is we just want the choice. Don’t believe in abortion? Then don’t have one.

[vroom]

[quote]Sounds like “relativism” to me vroom.

Now you wouldn’t be “preaching” that would you? [/quote]

Zeb,

You have a way of throwing around bugaboo words, as if they actually have any significance to the discussion.

While you have a tendency to believe your view is the one and only right viewpoint, that is not the way I look at it.

I’m willing to grant you your viewpoint, though I have one that is not exactly the same.

Perhaps you could figure out how to do the same some day?

Alternately, you can consider yourself God’s defender and enforcer and seek to make everyone conform to your own beliefs, even when they have differing beliefs. So much for freedom of religion however…

–

On a different note, I don’t think the fact that people second guess themselves is a good reason to create laws.

Hell, maybe we should ban drinking because if I were to hook up with someone ugly while intoxicated, I’d really end up second guessing myself.

No way.

[nephorm]

[quote]gojira wrote:
The fact is we just want the choice. Don’t believe in abortion? Then don’t have one.
[/quote]

Whether or not abortion is legal, women still have a choice: to have sex or to not have sex. We live in a twisted world, when people think that they have a right to have sex without having children.

[nephorm]

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
As for Nephorm’s argument that there’s no evidence that abortion has positive benefits, check out the following paper by Steven Levitt: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf#search=‘steven%20levitt%20abortions’
Food for thought.[/quote]

Reducing the size of the class most likely to be resposible for violent crime does, necessarily, lower the incidence of such crimes.

I did not say that abortion had no “positive benefits,” but rather said that abortion offers conveniences, and perhaps even short-term benefits to the people. But I am concerned about the betterment of the whole, not of this or that crime rate or economic model.

Luckily for the pro-choice among you, you don’t need to convince me; you’ve already won, and it doesn’t seem likely that Roe vs. Wade is going to be overturned. Similarly, I know my arguments are completely in vain; there are limits to the power of persuasive speech.

[orion]

[quote]nephorm wrote:
gojira wrote:
The fact is we just want the choice. Don’t believe in abortion? Then don’t have one.

Whether or not abortion is legal, women still have a choice: to have sex or to not have sex. We live in a twisted world, when people think that they have a right to have sex without having children.[/quote]

I am with Miniross on this, we have no rights whatsoever…

We are lucky to be here and we seem to have a good run as a species, but at the very second Yellowstone blows up, or a bigger asteroid hits us…

Rights? As if anyone could grant anyone any rights…

You are as free as you dare to be…