South Dakota Bans Abortions

What, now we should ban sex?

Where the hell is this stuff coming from?

People have always, in modern times, had the right to have sex all they want. And, with birth control, they have the right to have sex whether or not it may lead to having children.

I’m floored at how much people feel it is appropriate to control the behavior of others. Who should have sex. What purpose they should have sex for. What they must endure in their lives.

Yes, we definitely need government agents in the bedrooms asking people if they intend to have a child… otherwise they should stop immediately!

Sex, it’s not just for procreation any more.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
vroom wrote:
I don’t know, I see words like responsibility bandied about, but again, what we believe and feel is appropriate does not necessarily have any bearing on others.

Sounds like “relativism” to me vroom.

Now you wouldn’t be “preaching” that would you?

[/quote]

Zeb, it may have escaped your attention but the question of moral relativism was brought up and solved by Machiavelli…

At least in Europe, this was never even considered to be a question in asian cultures.

Since this has happened a few hundred years ago, maybe it is time to let it go?

No moral absolutes, so sorry…

[quote]gojira wrote:

The decision to have the child not only affects the mother, but also the child (a fact many of you seem to be missing). It seems to me that many of you would spare the fetus only to have it born into a world of poverty, abuse and neglect. A slow, torturous death, if not of the body, of the spirit for both the mother and the child.[/quote]

Yes, then by all means kill them.

With that logic you can clean up the City streets of all the street people. Have open season on all who are hungry or non-productive.

What nutty logic. Killing an unborn baby cannot be rationalized by claiming that they might be born into poverty.

If that is valid then I am making the claim right now that many of them might have become research scientists and found a cure for cancer…but alas someone killed them.

[quote]The fact is we just want the choice. Don’t believe in abortion? Then don’t have one.
[/quote]

Interesting the liberals would use this tired out phrase. It is the exact same phrase that the old South used to rationalize slavery.

“Don’t believe in slavery? Then don’t own one! We just want the choice to own one.”

Nutty huh?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sounds like “relativism” to me vroom.

Now you wouldn’t be “preaching” that would you?

Zeb,

You have a way of throwing around bugaboo words, as if they actually have any significance to the discussion.[/quote]

They do mean something vroom ole’ buddy.

And you never think you are correct huh? :slight_smile:

And I grant you yours.

Already did.

You can have any beliefs that you want to. Who is sterotyping now?

But when those beliefs kill 50 million unborn children I have to speak up.

[quote]Hell, maybe we should ban drinking because if I were to hook up with someone ugly while intoxicated, I’d really end up second guessing myself.

No way.[/quote]

Yes, let’s use every possible comparison that we can to rationalize killing unborn babies.

Drinking, etc…

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Zeb, you’re a loathsome piece of shit.

This is par for the course for harris447. You have no class and you never will.

You can never argue a point without attempting to make it personal.

Do you know anyone who’s had an abortion? Do you know how difficult the decision was, how it stays with you the rest of your life?

Yes, I happen to know two women who had abortions. One about 10 years ago, the other 6 or 7 years ago. They both regret it and have been through therapy because of it.

Nice right they have huh?

This is just one more “right” that the liberals have given us. That has turned out to be a huge black eye on not only our country but the many women who have a conscience.

Who the fuck are you to be judging anyone, you closed-minded, reactionary little bag of fear?

I judged the system that allows such things, and that system is wrong.

I’m also someone who is concerned about the unborn child. I think that that child represents more than just a “tissue” to be disgarded because someone made a mistake.

As for your constant personal attacks: They remind me of someone who has a great deal of Internet courage. Which as you know speaks volumes for your character.

Keep it up as this is expected from someone of your caliber.

The whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing is such bullshit.

So, should we allow gay couples to adopt these unwanted children?

Come on harris

Why do you go from extreme to extreme to validate a point. There is years long waiting lists for people to adopt. This needn’t be a this or that just to help prove your point.

Also the 'whole hate the sin, love the sinner thing" is not bs at all. It’s not a cop out. It’s a way of life. I don’t like alot of actions, but that certainly doesn’t automatically mean I reject the person.

This is way to hot of a subject for an internet forum anyway. With time delays and trolling it becomes to impossible to have any shot to truly understand the other persons viewpoint. And even then, do we think it will change a mind. You’ve let your feelings for ZEB overtake any possibility of meaningful dialogue and that is too bad. We rarely agree, but you usually back your opinions with thoughtful responses that would indicate you’ve done more than take words off a blog and regurgitate them here.

My opinion is I stand behind life. Certainly their exist medical and legal issues for which terminating a pregnancy would be the better option. But as discussed those are very few and ewmain a weak argument for those who favor abortion.[/quote]

An intelligient and thoughtful post!

[quote]orion wrote:

I am with Miniross on this, we have no rights whatsoever…[/quote]

Okay…then give me your TV set.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Whether or not abortion is legal, women still have a choice: to have sex or to not have sex. We live in a twisted world, when people think that they have a right to have sex without having children.

What, now we should ban sex?

Where the hell is this stuff coming from?

People have always, in modern times, had the right to have sex all they want. And, with birth control, they have the right to have sex whether or not it may lead to having children.

I’m floored at how much people feel it is appropriate to control the behavior of others. Who should have sex. What purpose they should have sex for. What they must endure in their lives.

Yes, we definitely need government agents in the bedrooms asking people if they intend to have a child… otherwise they should stop immediately![/quote]

That was a great twist on his point. But of course it was ridiculous.

Of course he means that they have the right to choose whether or not to have sex. And if they choose sex they now have a responsiblility.

Oh my what a harsh word that is!

DUH! But it still causes babies…Now what? Just flush them right?

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
vroom wrote:
I don’t know, I see words like responsibility bandied about, but again, what we believe and feel is appropriate does not necessarily have any bearing on others.

Sounds like “relativism” to me vroom.

Now you wouldn’t be “preaching” that would you?

Zeb, it may have escaped your attention but the question of moral relativism was brought up and solved by Machiavelli…

At least in Europe, this was never even considered to be a question in asian cultures.

Since this has happened a few hundred years ago, maybe it is time to let it go?

No moral absolutes, so sorry…[/quote]

If there are no “absolutes” then there is no more right or wrong. And if there is no more right or wrong, there should be no more laws as they are “unfairly” dictating what is right or wrong.

You liberals are fun to play with. :slight_smile:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:

I am with Miniross on this, we have no rights whatsoever…

Okay…then give me your TV set.

[/quote]

You are confusing the idea of God-given inherent rights and social conventions and you are doing it on purpose…

Or you are really not able to see the difference which would explain why you cannot grasp that people do not want religious ideas shoved down their throats by making them social conventions.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

If there are no “absolutes” then there is no more right or wrong. And if there is no more right or wrong, there should be no more laws as they are “unfairly” dictating what is right or wrong.

You liberals are fun to play with. :)[/quote]

This pretty much sums up my position. There are far too many laws which unfairly dictate what is right or wrong:

Drug laws, steroid laws, helmet and seat-belt laws, gun control laws, etc…

Therefore this whole jeffersonian, government-as-a-necessary-evil, minarchist freedom trip I?m on.

Get this, I am that much of a radical freedom lover that I do not think that it is the governments role to prevent people from making mistakes they may or may not regret later in life.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Whether or not abortion is legal, women still have a choice: to have sex or to not have sex. We live in a twisted world, when people think that they have a right to have sex without having children.

What, now we should ban sex?

Where the hell is this stuff coming from?
[/quote]

I don’t know where it is coming from… though I suspect it is your imagination. I never said anything about banning sex.

People still do have the right to have sex all they want. I never said otherwise. Birth control doesn’t give you a “right” to have sex, with or without children. The right to have sex is natural and prior to any positive right to use birth control. Birth control is a convenience to reduce the likelihood of conceiving a child. It does not give one the right to a child-free coupling any more than safety-belts give a person a right to an accident-free car ride.

Again, I never said that we should be legislating who should be having sex or for what purposes. In terms of what people “must endure” in their lives, well, again, all choices have consequences. Being an adult means accepting that. If I choose not to pay my mortgage, the bank will take my house. That would be intensely unpleasant for me, but that doesn’t mean that legislation should prevent me from “enduring” that hardship. If I didn’t want a foreclosure, I should have paid my mortgage.

[quote]
Yes, we definitely need government agents in the bedrooms asking people if they intend to have a child… otherwise they should stop immediately!

Sex, it’s not just for procreation any more.[/quote]

Again, a strawman argument. I never advocated any such thing.

[quote]miniross wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
miniross wrote:
ZEB wrote:
miniross wrote:
No one has a right to life. Like sheep and cows dont, and impala on the serengeti dont, and cod in the sea dont.

Where did this right to life idea begin.

I have no idea.

You continue to disappoint me.

Why, because i have no gradiose notions to which i attach myself to. I

I absolutley insist that there is no right to life. what about the millions of unknown miscarriages each year? Does that embryo have a right to life, then to have it dashed because the host body rejected it?

Life is wonderful, yes, but by no means do you have a right to it.

You poor little confused ‘dyslexic’ man: If you do not have a right to your life, then there are no rights at all. We are each ‘endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness’. To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.

An embryo has the DNA structure of a human. It is a person. It therefore has all the rights that all of us who happened to be born already have secured. Abortion is the murder of a human. It is the negation of rights. It is simply Satanic evil.

No cofusion, enlightenment. I have Humanistic tendencies, but i am not arrogant to think i have a right to this life. Lucky, maybe, but not a right to it. It could be taken away in a second, by a cruel accident that has no way of respecing this so called “right”.

do you think you have a right to your life then?[/quote]

Cofusion? Isn’t that a hoped-for energy source waiting to be discovered? :slight_smile:

Rights are defined in terms of your relationship with other humans. It has nothing to do with you having the ‘right’ to ignore the law of gravity or ‘right’ to not being eaten by a lion while on safari.

You need a good class on Political Philosophy. Start with John Locke.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You need a good class on Political Philosophy. Start with John Locke.
[/quote]

In that case, I advise you to start with Plato.

[quote]vroom wrote:
From where do you derive hope? From where with in your being do you find guidance?

This is not criticism, but I don’t understand how people can ask this.

Hope, or any other emotion you can name, is innate within us. It doesn’t require belief in anything in order to be expressed.

I disagree. Isn’t hope based on a belief that something better may come?
If you believe in nothing, can you have hope? (Not necessarily religion.)

Similarly, guidance is found by thinking about situations and applying your beliefs and principles to it. One does not have to have a certain brand of faith in order to have beliefs and principles.

I never stated it did. I agree with your statement.

Again, not a criticism, because if faith works for someone, great. However, for those that it doesn’t work for, just realize they have probably already heard and rejected your arguments many times.
[/quote]

I understand that. I can see where you would make that inference, however, I was merely asking a question. I was genuinely interested in the answer.

Lots of talk on the ‘right’ to have sex. To that end, I do not disagree.

But with rights come responsibilities. No one is telling a woman she can’t have sex - that is a ludicrous straw man. So why does a man that decides to have sex not entitled to get off the hook from taking care of a child that his partner refused to abort, even though he wanted her to?

Here we stand at the point ushered in by the 1960’s - the attempts to create a consequence-free environment of hedonism. And it doesn’t extend just to sex.

Want to be a glutton, eat as much garbage as you can force down your face, and get fat and destroy your health? No problem - you should be entitled to have society bail you out of your personal choices with risk underwriting and cost absorption.

Want to spend all your money, max out your credit cards enjoying cosmic levels of consumer enjoyment, only to break your household finances? No problem - you should be entitled to have society bail you out of these bad choices with easy bankruptcy.

Want to have all the sex you want, with whomever you want, and ultimately get pregnant? No problem - you are entitled to enjoy yourself, and it is up to society to allow you to erase your mistakes with abortion.

And the last thing we would want is to rain down scorn upon these choices and possibly hurt someone’s feelings in the post-60s environment of pervasive non-judgmentalism.

We’ve replaced self-reliance, self-discipline, and self-mastery with self-expression, self-indulgence, and self-destruction. Our grandparents fought in World Wars and toughed out the Great Depression. We march around, well-fed and interested only in instant self-gratification, demanding ever more entitlement and freedom from responsibility. We want abortion availability, diet pills, stomach stapling, handouts, and free ‘everything’. What a bunch of sissies we have become in the name of ‘fulfilling our desires’.

Plenty of talk about ‘rights’ these days - but I am more interested in the talk about responsibility.

The mantra is this: “If it feels good, I want to do it, but if the results blow up in my face, I want everyone else to bail me out”. I can’t get on board with that. Ever.

Further, abortion has nothing - repeat, nothing - to do with women’s rights. It has everything to do with the very complicated question of when to start extending human rights to the child in the womb. I don’t think that is an easy question, and I think reasonable people can disagree as to the answer. But, that is the only question - and ‘women’s rights’ are smokescreen and completely irrelevant.

As Justice Holmes remarked:

The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins.

Likewise, the right for a woman to have whatever sex she wants gets compromised the moment another life gets entered into the mix. You can’t do anything you want when another being’s interests and rights are suddenly on the table.

Abortion is a complicated issue, but cannot be decided through a prism of ‘abortion is part of my right to have fun’.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Abortion is a complicated issue, but cannot be decided through a prism of ‘abortion is part of my right to have fun’. [/quote]

Good post.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Interesting, the feminist groups who first pushed abortion rights are now responsible for killing more women than any other single thing.

It’s about womens rights to spread their legs with no responsibility! The feminists want women to be just as “carefree” as a man after a sexual union.

That is their single biggest motivating factor and it’s…

SICK!

Are all of you just as vocal when it comes to adoption and wellfare?

Who are all of you?[/quote]

Anyone focusing on “anti-abortion laws” while ignoring the negativity going into a child being brought up by parents who don’t really want him, a father who may not love him, being raised in circumstances that provide no moral nourishment, or being abandoned by his parents altogether.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Kind of a game theory approach:

Persons responsible for pregnancy (assuming consent) -
-Man at roughly 50%
-Woman at roughly 50%

Persons responsible for deciding to exercise the ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ Card, thereby sidestepping consequences for your actions -
-Man at 0%
-Woman at 100%

So, here we have equivalent responsibility - the choice to have sex - but the ability to choose to avoid the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are completely one-sided.

So a man wants the woman to keep the child he is 50% responsible for creating, but she has plenary veto over this.

Even more distressing, a man wants her to get an abortion, but she doesn’t want to - and now, if the child is brought into the world, he is legallly obligated to provide care for it, even though he did not want that consequence. Here we have a man who must accept full consequences of his actions - and the abortion regime does not provide him with the same opportunity to sidestep consequences. He gets no pass.

Men have agency in creating the child - 50% - but zero ability to decide whether that child is born or not, in a typical abortion regime. This cannot be fair, in my view.[/quote]

What also may not be fair is the life of a child whose parents are legally forced to raise it when they never loved it or wanted it. I see many more babies being abandoned if this becomes widely accepted as law.

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:

I am with Miniross on this, we have no rights whatsoever…

Okay…then give me your TV set.

You are confusing the idea of God-given inherent rights and social conventions and you are doing it on purpose…

Or you are really not able to see the difference which would explain why you cannot grasp that people do not want religious ideas shoved down their throats by making them social conventions.

[/quote]

“Religion” does not enter into the debate when it comes to “murder” or “rape” or any other crime against a human being.

You have the right to walk the streets safely, and I think an unborn baby should have the right to be born!

You dragged religion into this.

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:

If there are no “absolutes” then there is no more right or wrong. And if there is no more right or wrong, there should be no more laws as they are “unfairly” dictating what is right or wrong.

You liberals are fun to play with. :slight_smile:

This pretty much sums up my position. There are far too many laws which unfairly dictate what is right or wrong:

Drug laws, steroid laws, helmet and seat-belt laws, gun control laws, etc…

Therefore this whole jeffersonian, government-as-a-necessary-evil, minarchist freedom trip I?m on.[/quote]

I’m with you on some of those. I think there are more laws than what is really needed. But you would not be against any law that protects a person. For example, you would not want your woman to walk the streets alone if there were no law against rape.

This is how I look at the abortion of a baby. It is defenseless and we have sanctioned the killing of that defenseless life.

It’s very sick.

[quote]Get this, I am that much of a radical freedom lover that I do not think that it is the governments role to prevent people from making mistakes they may or may not regret later in life.

[/quote]

Oh, but there is where you miss the point. It’s not about how someone feels regarding having that abortion. That is not why abortion should be banned. It should be banned to protect a life that cannot speak out for itself.