South Dakota Bans Abortions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Zeb, you’re a loathsome piece of shit.

This is par for the course for harris447. You have no class and you never will.

You can never argue a point without attempting to make it personal.

Do you know anyone who’s had an abortion? Do you know how difficult the decision was, how it stays with you the rest of your life?

Yes, I happen to know two women who had abortions. One about 10 years ago, the other 6 or 7 years ago. They both regret it and have been through therapy because of it.

Nice right they have huh?

This is just one more “right” that the liberals have given us. That has turned out to be a huge black eye on not only our country but the many women who have a conscience.

Who the fuck are you to be judging anyone, you closed-minded, reactionary little bag of fear?

I judged the system that allows such things, and that system is wrong.

I’m also someone who is concerned about the unborn child. I think that that child represents more than just a “tissue” to be disgarded because someone made a mistake.

As for your constant personal attacks: They remind me of someone who has a great deal of Internet courage. Which as you know speaks volumes for your character.

Keep it up as this is expected from someone of your caliber.

The whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing is such bullshit.

So, should we allow gay couples to adopt these unwanted children?

[/quote]

It might be crap to you harris, but it’s how I try to live my life. I don’t even hate you.

We don’t need “gay couples” adopting children. There are not enough children to currently go around.

Where do you get your information?

Simply because you want something to be true does not mean that it is.

102

Kind of a game theory approach:

Persons responsible for pregnancy (assuming consent) -
-Man at roughly 50%
-Woman at roughly 50%

Persons responsible for deciding to exercise the ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ Card, thereby sidestepping consequences for your actions -
-Man at 0%
-Woman at 100%

So, here we have equivalent responsibility - the choice to have sex - but the ability to choose to avoid the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are completely one-sided.

So a man wants the woman to keep the child he is 50% responsible for creating, but she has plenary veto over this.

Even more distressing, a man wants her to get an abortion, but she doesn’t want to - and now, if the child is brought into the world, he is legallly obligated to provide care for it, even though he did not want that consequence. Here we have a man who must accept full consequences of his actions - and the abortion regime does not provide him with the same opportunity to sidestep consequences. He gets no pass.

Men have agency in creating the child - 50% - but zero ability to decide whether that child is born or not, in a typical abortion regime. This cannot be fair, in my view.

103

[quote]orion wrote:
nephorm wrote:
What the boundaries for such action would be is a very complex and difficult topic, and I simply don’t agree that abortion contributes to the betterment of man. It may be convenient for him, or expedient, but I do not think that it leads him toward the good.

Maybe it prevents people to stray to the dark side. Would that not be enough?

A social safety valve?

[/quote]

It depends on several factors, including but not limited to:

  • is the treatment for the symptom worse than the symptom it addresses?

  • does it tend toward the betterment of the whole?

  • what else can be done?

While many tend to make arguments about the social usefulness of abortion, etc, I don’t think most of them truly believe it. Those arguments are mostly rhetoric. Fundamentally, I think most people are simply averse to restrictions on their actions, period. Anti-abortion legislation limits choices, and some people dislike not being able to make any choices they want to. No one wants to hear “you made a choice, and choices have consequences.”

Ultimately, however, in a republic people must respect (ideally, love) the law. If it is imposed upon them against their will (which Roe vs Wade effectively did), it is a constant vexation and irritant in the body politic.

And this goes back to the question of whether or not abortion could be useful as a social safety valve; the United States is not one culture, or one set of circumstances. Perhaps abortion is a safety valve in Washington, DC, but a pernicious innovation in South Dakota. If the people of South Dakota have mores such that they do not desire to have abortion as an option, perhaps it is best that they are let to have their ways. Similarly, California or Florida, or wherever else ought to have its own laws for its own people, which accord with their mores.

104

[quote]btm62 wrote:
orion wrote:
btm62 wrote:
orion wrote:
miniross wrote:
No one has a right to life. Like sheep and cows dont, and impala on the serengeti dont, and cod in the sea dont.

Where did this right to life idea begin.

I have no idea.

Religion.

Human life is holy you know. Sacred. Unless, of course, they happen to pray to the wrong God, drive a car on Sabbath, something unforgivable like that…

The idea that a fetus is a human being (and human life being sacred) only makes sense if you believe that human beings have a soul, which is by its very nature a religious idea.

Maybe you could stay on topic. Abortion. Religion doesn’t necessarily enter into the equation. Kind of like when you stubbed your toe this morning, that wasn’t Bush’s fault, but you want to blame him anyway.

I am staying on topic, my level of abstraction is probably higher than yours.

That is easy since I do not invest that much emotional energy in that ideas.

The idea that there is more to humans than the body and the live that we have is by its very nature religious.

You could also call it mystical or spiritual, to which I would respond with:

Well then religion is organized spirituality…

The attempt to narrow such issues down, so that they seem to be completely unrelated to everything else that goes on in society and as if the people making certain claims did not have a religious agenda…

Ah, come on, it is me that muddies the water?

Hardly…

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Do you agree that murder is wrong? Stealing? Are you religious? Doesn’t seem so to me. So even thought a person thinks murder is wrong does’t make him religious. Same thing with abortion. Now quit playing that card everytime some disagrees with your version morality. Its inaccurate and tiresome.

As Emeril would say, “Kick that level of abstraction up a notch baby”. Its hardly abstract to be a syncophant for the left. [/quote]

I am at a point where I ask myself why do I think that murder or stealing is wrong.

Religion is a set of ideas that exploits that instinctive “morality”. This is what I find to be repulsive and ultimately damaging.

Religion as a closed system is by far to inflexible to adjust to the possibilities of todays sociey. Since those scrolls were created in the Bronce Age I’m hardly surprised.

My problem with religion is, that it gives a quasi-reasonable justification for emotional impulses that are in essence irrational which leads to all kinds of stupid ideas and behaviours…

I know that people do some stupid shit all the time but at least they don’t have a God or a Holy Book to throw oil into the fire…

105

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Zeb, you’re a loathsome piece of shit.

This is par for the course for harris447. You have no class and you never will.

You can never argue a point without attempting to make it personal.

Do you know anyone who’s had an abortion? Do you know how difficult the decision was, how it stays with you the rest of your life?

Yes, I happen to know two women who had abortions. One about 10 years ago, the other 6 or 7 years ago. They both regret it and have been through therapy because of it.

Nice right they have huh?

This is just one more “right” that the liberals have given us. That has turned out to be a huge black eye on not only our country but the many women who have a conscience.

Who the fuck are you to be judging anyone, you closed-minded, reactionary little bag of fear?

I judged the system that allows such things, and that system is wrong.

I’m also someone who is concerned about the unborn child. I think that that child represents more than just a “tissue” to be disgarded because someone made a mistake.

As for your constant personal attacks: They remind me of someone who has a great deal of Internet courage. Which as you know speaks volumes for your character.

Keep it up as this is expected from someone of your caliber.

The whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing is such bullshit.

So, should we allow gay couples to adopt these unwanted children?

[/quote]

Come on harris

Why do you go from extreme to extreme to validate a point. There is years long waiting lists for people to adopt. This needn’t be a this or that just to help prove your point.

Also the 'whole hate the sin, love the sinner thing" is not bs at all. It’s not a cop out. It’s a way of life. I don’t like alot of actions, but that certainly doesn’t automatically mean I reject the person.

This is way to hot of a subject for an internet forum anyway. With time delays and trolling it becomes to impossible to have any shot to truly understand the other persons viewpoint. And even then, do we think it will change a mind. You’ve let your feelings for ZEB overtake any possibility of meaningful dialogue and that is too bad. We rarely agree, but you usually back your opinions with thoughtful responses that would indicate you’ve done more than take words off a blog and regurgitate them here.

My opinion is I stand behind life. Certainly their exist medical and legal issues for which terminating a pregnancy would be the better option. But as discussed those are very few and ewmain a weak argument for those who favor abortion.

106

[quote]nephorm wrote:

And this goes back to the question of whether or not abortion could be useful as a social safety valve; the United States is not one culture, or one set of circumstances. Perhaps abortion is a safety valve in Washington, DC, but a pernicious innovation in South Dakota. If the people of South Dakota have mores such that they do not desire to have abortion as an option, perhaps it is best that they are let to have their ways. Similarly, California or Florida, or wherever else ought to have its own laws for its own people, which accord with their mores. [/quote]

I am sorry that I’m picking out the points that interest me the most, I am aware that it is a little bit unfair…

The fine people of South Dacota can choose to not allow abortions in their state.

Yippee…

But what would they choose, in real life?

That women with money had their abortions in NY and poor women in the back room of a barber shop with a dress hanger…

107

People have been killing each other whenever it was more convenient than the alternative since the dawn of time.

Now, suddenly, humans are “special” but we can continue to kill everything else whenever it’s convenient. How lucky for us.

108

[quote]

…I know that people do some stupid shit all the time but at least they don’t have a God or a Holy Book to throw oil into the fire… [/quote]

And those that do are ultimately are blaming or invoking the wrong “person” for their actions, which is themselves.

If this is truely how you feel, I am genuinely sad for you. From where do you derive hope? From where with in your being do you find guidance? You strike me as very unhappy. I’m sorry for that. If you want to talk more, PM me. I promise not to shove religion down your throat.

109

[quote]btm62 wrote:

…I know that people do some stupid shit all the time but at least they don’t have a God or a Holy Book to throw oil into the fire…

And those that do are ultimately are blaming or invoking the wrong “person” for their actions, which is themselves.

If this is truely how you feel, I am genuinely sad for you. From where do you derive hope? From where with in your being do you find guidance? You strike me as very unhappy. I’m sorry for that. If you want to talk more, PM me. I promise not to shove religion down your throat. [/quote]

That is very nice of you but I am beyond the anger, rebellion, whatever phase I am approaching acceptance, which actually feels a lot like peace…

I may, gasp, be a spiritual person…

I actually took the hard way, the buddhist route, by understanding others by understanding myself first…

Did I mention that I’m only 32?

God, life WILL kick me in the balls…

110

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Zeb, you’re a loathsome piece of shit.

This is par for the course for harris447. You have no class and you never will.

You can never argue a point without attempting to make it personal.

Do you know anyone who’s had an abortion? Do you know how difficult the decision was, how it stays with you the rest of your life?

Yes, I happen to know two women who had abortions. One about 10 years ago, the other 6 or 7 years ago. They both regret it and have been through therapy because of it.

Nice right they have huh?

This is just one more “right” that the liberals have given us. That has turned out to be a huge black eye on not only our country but the many women who have a conscience.

Who the fuck are you to be judging anyone, you closed-minded, reactionary little bag of fear?

I judged the system that allows such things, and that system is wrong.

I’m also someone who is concerned about the unborn child. I think that that child represents more than just a “tissue” to be disgarded because someone made a mistake.

As for your constant personal attacks: They remind me of someone who has a great deal of Internet courage. Which as you know speaks volumes for your character.

Keep it up as this is expected from someone of your caliber.

The whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing is such bullshit.

So, should we allow gay couples to adopt these unwanted children?

Come on harris

Why do you go from extreme to extreme to validate a point. There is years long waiting lists for people to adopt. This needn’t be a this or that just to help prove your point.

Also the 'whole hate the sin, love the sinner thing" is not bs at all. It’s not a cop out. It’s a way of life. I don’t like alot of actions, but that certainly doesn’t automatically mean I reject the person.

This is way to hot of a subject for an internet forum anyway. With time delays and trolling it becomes to impossible to have any shot to truly understand the other persons viewpoint. And even then, do we think it will change a mind. You’ve let your feelings for ZEB overtake any possibility of meaningful dialogue and that is too bad. We rarely agree, but you usually back your opinions with thoughtful responses that would indicate you’ve done more than take words off a blog and regurgitate them here.

My opinion is I stand behind life. Certainly their exist medical and legal issues for which terminating a pregnancy would be the better option. But as discussed those are very few and ewmain a weak argument for those who favor abortion.[/quote]

There are years-long waiting lists for white babies.

But, of course, that’s just what I “want to believe”

Would this abrogation of a woman’s ownership off her body come with more birth control education? How about more welfare for poor mothers forced to have unwanted children they can’t afford?

It’s not just about “life”.

111

This is not criticism, but I don’t understand how people can ask this.

Hope, or any other emotion you can name, is innate within us. It doesn’t require belief in anything in order to be expressed.

Similarly, guidance is found by thinking about situations and applying your beliefs and principles to it. One does not have to have a certain brand of faith in order to have beliefs and principles.

Again, not a criticism, because if faith works for someone, great. However, for those that it doesn’t work for, just realize they have probably already heard and rejected your arguments many times.

112

[quote]orion wrote:
btm62 wrote:

…I know that people do some stupid shit all the time but at least they don’t have a God or a Holy Book to throw oil into the fire…

And those that do are ultimately are blaming or invoking the wrong “person” for their actions, which is themselves.

If this is truely how you feel, I am genuinely sad for you. From where do you derive hope? From where with in your being do you find guidance? You strike me as very unhappy. I’m sorry for that. If you want to talk more, PM me. I promise not to shove religion down your throat.

That is very nice of you but I am beyond the anger, rebellion, whatever phase I am approaching acceptance, which actually feels a lot like peace…

I may, gasp, be a spiritual person…

I actually took the hard way, the buddhist route, by understanding others by understanding myself first…

Did I mention that I’m only 32?

God, life WILL kick me in the balls…[/quote]

As it will all of us. Good luck in your journey.

113

[quote]orion wrote:
But what would they choose, in real life?

That women with money had their abortions in NY and poor women in the back room of a barber shop with a dress hanger…
[/quote]

All laws are broken. If they were never broken, there would be no need for laws.

In the US, adults cannot legally have sex with minors. Rich pedophiles take trips to countries where the practice is legal, or where the authorities turn a blind eye. Poor pedophiles rape the poor children they are able to ensnare.

Perhaps, however, the poor mother would instead carry the child to term, and give the child up for adoption. Again, this is dependent upon mores; certainly, to combat the pressure to get an illegal abortion, there would need to be encouragement to give children up for adoption.

114

[quote]nephorm wrote:
orion wrote:
But what would they choose, in real life?

That women with money had their abortions in NY and poor women in the back room of a barber shop with a dress hanger…

All laws are broken. If they were never broken, there would be no need for laws.

In the US, adults cannot legally have sex with minors. Rich pedophiles take trips to countries where the practice is legal, or where the authorities turn a blind eye. Poor pedophiles rape the poor children they are able to ensnare.

Perhaps, however, the poor mother would instead carry the child to term, and give the child up for adoption. Again, this is dependent upon mores; certainly, to combat the pressure to get an illegal abortion, there would need to be encouragement to give children up for adoption. [/quote]

Nine months of your life? Forever gone? A mere inconvineance?

115

[quote]orion wrote:
Nine months of your life? Forever gone? A mere inconvineance?[/quote]

No… a consequence that any reasonable adult ought to be willing to face.

116

[quote]nephorm wrote:
orion wrote:
Nine months of your life? Forever gone? A mere inconvineance?

No… a consequence that any reasonable adult ought to be willing to face.[/quote]

What if the average adult was stupid and superficial?

Would it not be unfair to judge him by the standards you would easily meet?

Has being clever corrupted your point of view?

Is being stupid more than you can imagine?

Gargle!

117

[quote]harris447 wrote:
How about more welfare for poor mothers forced to have unwanted children they can’t afford?

[/quote]

Who is “forcing” these women to have “unwanted children?”

118

[quote]orion wrote:
What if the average adult was stupid and superficial?
[/quote]

But the average adult is more than capable of understanding that sex can cause children.

What if the reason the average people seem to be stupid and superficial is because they are coddled to the point that they needn’t adapt or learn to understand basic cause and effect?

119

[quote]orion wrote:
…

Nine months of your life? Forever gone? A mere inconvineance?[/quote]

Women are not in suspended animation while they are pregnant. They still live their lives.

I also think the babies should have an opportunity to live.

120

[quote]harris447 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Zeb, you’re a loathsome piece of shit.

This is par for the course for harris447. You have no class and you never will.

You can never argue a point without attempting to make it personal.

Do you know anyone who’s had an abortion? Do you know how difficult the decision was, how it stays with you the rest of your life?

Yes, I happen to know two women who had abortions. One about 10 years ago, the other 6 or 7 years ago. They both regret it and have been through therapy because of it.

Nice right they have huh?

This is just one more “right” that the liberals have given us. That has turned out to be a huge black eye on not only our country but the many women who have a conscience.

Who the fuck are you to be judging anyone, you closed-minded, reactionary little bag of fear?

I judged the system that allows such things, and that system is wrong.

I’m also someone who is concerned about the unborn child. I think that that child represents more than just a “tissue” to be disgarded because someone made a mistake.

As for your constant personal attacks: They remind me of someone who has a great deal of Internet courage. Which as you know speaks volumes for your character.

Keep it up as this is expected from someone of your caliber.

The whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing is such bullshit.

So, should we allow gay couples to adopt these unwanted children?

Come on harris

Why do you go from extreme to extreme to validate a point. There is years long waiting lists for people to adopt. This needn’t be a this or that just to help prove your point.

Also the 'whole hate the sin, love the sinner thing" is not bs at all. It’s not a cop out. It’s a way of life. I don’t like alot of actions, but that certainly doesn’t automatically mean I reject the person.

This is way to hot of a subject for an internet forum anyway. With time delays and trolling it becomes to impossible to have any shot to truly understand the other persons viewpoint. And even then, do we think it will change a mind. You’ve let your feelings for ZEB overtake any possibility of meaningful dialogue and that is too bad. We rarely agree, but you usually back your opinions with thoughtful responses that would indicate you’ve done more than take words off a blog and regurgitate them here.

My opinion is I stand behind life. Certainly their exist medical and legal issues for which terminating a pregnancy would be the better option. But as discussed those are very few and ewmain a weak argument for those who favor abortion.

There are years-long waiting lists for white babies.

But, of course, that’s just what I “want to believe”

Would this abrogation of a woman’s ownership off her body come with more birth control education? How about more welfare for poor mothers forced to have unwanted children they can’t afford?

It’s not just about “life”.
[/quote]

There are plenty of people willing to adopt ANY child. Just look at the mixed families at your next PTA meeting. It is now the norm to see such families.

And what percentage of the people getting abortions are of color? My first instinct is to say more white babies are aborted than any other. I admit that I don’t know of any data and would be interested to find out more.

Welfare! I see no stipulation that any ‘mother’ has any obligation to raise and support any child. She need only go to a hospital and deliver. She is free to walk out the door with no financial obligation whatsoever.

Ownership of body must come with some responsibility.