South Carolina Police Officer shoots unarmed man in the back as he flees.

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

To be fair I think the outcry is that unarmed black men are shot eight times, shooting an armed criminal multiple times is different than shooting an unarmed man who you know is unarmed like Michael Brown who was shot twice in the head and four times in the arms. Not saying I think it was an unlawful shooting but lets not confuse what the outrage was actually about.
[/quote]

I’ve seen it with both armed and unarmed and black and white. But it still holds true with an unarmed person. An unarmed person can still kill a cop and can still deserve to be shot. A couple of minutes is still plenty of time for an unarmed man to kill someone. Shooting an unarmed man 8 times can still be perfectly reasonable and justifiable.[/quote]

No arguments here, I am just saying that that was the outrage, put into context. It wasn’t just the amount of shots, it was the shooting of an unarmed black man some people felt was not justified.
I was not holding that position I just wanted to make clear what the other sides outrage was about.
[/quote]

About which case? I was making a general statement about pistols. But Brown being unarmed doesn’t make it wrong for him to have been shot 6 times. He may very well have still been charging the police officer after the 5th time he was hit.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand me. I am not saying I agree with their outrage. I am simply pointing out the outrage wasn’t simply over the number of shots, it was the number of shots within the context of that incident, that they felt was wrong and racially driven.

I don’t necessarily agree but I am just stating the outrage was not about the number of shots fired in and of itself. [/quote]

I get it. But I’m saying that idea is stupid. If justified and you decide to shoot it should be lots of rounds. Otherwise you shouldn’t shoot at all. Shooting someone fatally 6 times versus once is inconsequential unless the cop kept shooting him after he was down (something forensics would show). The people that think 1 or 2 hits is reasonable but 6 makes it wrong are idiots.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

To be fair I think the outcry is that unarmed black men are shot eight times, shooting an armed criminal multiple times is different than shooting an unarmed man who you know is unarmed like Michael Brown who was shot twice in the head and four times in the arms. Not saying I think it was an unlawful shooting but lets not confuse what the outrage was actually about.
[/quote]

I’ve seen it with both armed and unarmed and black and white. But it still holds true with an unarmed person. An unarmed person can still kill a cop and can still deserve to be shot. A couple of minutes is still plenty of time for an unarmed man to kill someone. Shooting an unarmed man 8 times can still be perfectly reasonable and justifiable.[/quote]

No arguments here, I am just saying that that was the outrage, put into context. It wasn’t just the amount of shots, it was the shooting of an unarmed black man some people felt was not justified.
I was not holding that position I just wanted to make clear what the other sides outrage was about.
[/quote]

About which case? I was making a general statement about pistols. But Brown being unarmed doesn’t make it wrong for him to have been shot 6 times. He may very well have still been charging the police officer after the 5th time he was hit.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand me. I am not saying I agree with their outrage. I am simply pointing out the outrage wasn’t simply over the number of shots, it was the number of shots within the context of that incident, that they felt was wrong and racially driven.

I don’t necessarily agree but I am just stating the outrage was not about the number of shots fired in and of itself. [/quote]

I get it. But I’m saying that idea is stupid. If justified and you decide to shoot it should be lots of rounds. Otherwise you shouldn’t shoot at all. Shooting someone fatally 6 times versus once is inconsequential unless the cop kept shooting him after he was down (something forensics would show). The people that think 1 or 2 hits is reasonable but 6 makes it wrong are idiots.[/quote]

This thread is a good read. I’ll jump out of the shadows for just a second to comment on your last paragraph. I think most people think several shots are excessive because on TV and in movies, one shot completely incapacitates MOST victims. They’re OUT. So when people with no real-world experience with hand guns see someone get shot multiple times, they think “Geez! one was enough to get it done! You are just taking _____ out on the victim!”

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

I think he didn’t want to shoot him because he was a nice guy who didn’t want to kill someone. [/quote]

Oh for crying out loud.

That cop wasn’t a nice guy, bad guy or president of the Knitting Society of Greater Peoria; he was a huge gambler.[/quote]

That is your opinion.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

We live in a sea of opinions. Your rowboat’s right in there next to mine, sailor.
[/quote]

The secret is to cry a river so you can pick up some speed.

Anyone seen the newest video of the US Marshall who sees some woman taping him, grabs her cellphone and smashes it. I mean wtf? Wrong for so many reasons…why was she taping the Marshall? Just in case he happened to shoot someone? Plus he was making a bust on HER street…was she happy with criminals living in her neighborhood or something? And then you probably are not allowed to tape US Marshalls because they are work undercover and any exposure would give away their identities. It’s one thing if she perceived the Marshall to be doing something illegal, and then began taping, but since when is walking down a street while doing your job illegal? How would she like it if someone went to her place of employment, put a camera in her face and waited until she did something not even wrong, but in today’s f’ed up world, something not PC?

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Will, how about a contest. You post as many videos of animals waterskiing that you can find, and I’ll post as many videos of police officers beating, macing, tasing and killing people that I can find. Who do you think will have more vids?

Also, I am well aware that Scott was driving. I was changing the subject to the police harassing people while they are walking, minding their own business. Or do you contend that, “that never happens either, because they are not allowed to do that”.

In case you haven’t noticed, Will, there are a lot of bad cops out there killing, beating, tasing and macing people for “resisting arrest” or, “not obeying the commands of an officer”…

If I’m walking along the street minding my business and you command me to stop, why should I listen to you? If I’m breaking no laws, what grounds do you have to stop me? If I refuse, will you tase me or shoot me? If I ran from you would you pursue me and attempt to arrest me? On what grounds? Serious question.

[/quote]

You certainly bring up some good points. If I am walking down the street, doing nothing wrong, why should I be questioned, harassed or otherwise bothered? I shouldn’t be.
My brother and I decided to go for a walk one late night when we were teenagers. We were literally doing nothing but walking. We didn’t have drugs, guns, knives, nothing. We were not high on anything, we had not been drinking, we had done nothing, absolutely nothing wrong. It was probably about 1 AM on a early Saturday morning, or late night Friday if you want to look at it that way. A cop stopped us and started questioning us. With in a minute we were surrounded by 4 cop cars, lights going the full nine yards. They are flashing flashlights in our eyes to see if we were fucked up, repeating the same questions on where we live and why we were out, over and over again. They separated us and talked to us separately again repeating the same questions to see if we would fuck up or change our story and they were not nice about it. They were very aggressive and mean. Asking repeatedly, were we came from, where we were going, what we were doing. We were being polite answering their questions with ‘Yes sir’ and ‘No sir’. They detained us for nearly an hour with 6 cops, who came in 4 cop cars. They had nothing and they found nothing. We were literally out for a walk, shooting the shit and that’s it.
After all this, knowing they had nothing they would not let us walk home. Which is what we were planning to do anyway. We were just walking a big circle, just for the hell of it. We’re night people and we thought it was fun just to be out walking late at night.
2 white guys walking apparently was probable cause for harassing us. They would not let us walk home. One of the cops insisted he drive us home. He didn’t give us a choice, we wanted to walk, 'cause that’s what we were aiming to do in the first place. Nope, since he could not arrest us, he forced us to go home and he forced us into his car to drive us home. While in the car, he continually asked questions, what we were doing out, and if I know this person or that person. We got to the house, he let us out of the car and we went in and it was over. However, what the fuck? We weren’t doing anything illegal, at all. Yet they had to get us off the street. A street we had every right to walk on, at a place it was perfectly legitimate to walk on or in, in a state we had the right to walk whenever the hell we felt like walking, at a time that was perfectly legal for us to be out in.

What’s the point of this story? The point is that police have the ability to ruin your life with in a matter of minutes. They let us go that night, but they certainly would have had no problem concocting some story about us running from them, or resisting their interrogations, or whatever. All they had to do is put their word against ours and they could have if they wanted to. But they had no right to even stop us, much less do anything else they did. The deck is stacked against the average citizen. All you need is a bad cop in a bad mood and you can be randomly picked out and have your life ruined for literally doing nothing. After all who are the authorities going to believe, a police officer or 2 teenagers? We got away with breaking no law whatsoever on the basis of the good graces of the police who illegally detained us.
The reality of this is not lost on me. We live in a country were our laws are supposed to protect us from such harassment from illegal detainment, search and seizure, but that’s exactly what happened. While the law may have been on our side, the law enforcers clearly were not.
This is not the only time I have been detained or questioned by the police for no reason, either. My only crime, I can only imagine is that I was young, I looked young and the only association to crime I was having, was that some young people do illegal things and so being young, I must have been doing something wrong. After all who walks at 1 in the morning? Or drives a convertible with 3 young friends in it? And I am a white guy. Had I been black, who knows…

I have long contended that the police in this country are out of control. They have too many rights to harass you and we have virtually no rights to stop them. While, they are not supposed to stop, detain, or otherwise question you they can and do just that and it can be for no other reason but existing in a place where they share space with you.

I for one am glad people are video recording the police shooting people, or breaking legs (as in the case of the Atlanta Hawks player Thabo Sefolosha), paralyzing people, etc. Because it’s long over due that the overwhelming power entrusted to the police needs a check.

I realize there are plenty of good cops, and I have interacted with my share of them. There are also a minority of bad cops, who make the whole lot look bad. The problem isn’t with the individual cop, but the system they are able to function under virtually unchecked. It takes one bad cop with a wild hair up his ass to ruin your life. And what checks they do have are basically self checks. Their own internal affairs dept, who are members of the dept. So you have cops monitoring cops, the blue wall is real and it is impenetrable.
The stuff that is happening now isn’t new, it being revealed on such a mass scale is; good. It needs to be fixed. The system in place needs a set of checks and balances that gives citizens on the right side of the law the right to be free from being harassed while still giving police the tools to fight real crime.

Next time you get pulled over, think of what options you have… Think about what you can realistically do if the cop you are dealing with decides to be a dick. You’ll find you have no options but to be polite and hope for the best.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Anyone seen the newest video of the US Marshall who sees some woman taping him, grabs her cellphone and smashes it. I mean wtf? Wrong for so many reasons… [/quote]
I was like, “Yeah, this should be good.”

[quote]
why was she taping the Marshall? Just in case he happened to shoot someone? Plus he was making a bust on HER street…was she happy with criminals living in her neighborhood or something? And then you probably are not allowed to tape US Marshalls because they are work undercover and any exposure would give away their identities. It’s one thing if she perceived the Marshall to be doing something illegal, and then began taping, but since when is walking down a street while doing your job illegal? How would she like it if someone went to her place of employment, put a camera in her face and waited until she did something not even wrong, but in today’s f’ed up world, something not PC?[/quote]

Then you wrote this garbage.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Then you wrote this garbage.[/quote]

I was just expressing my problem with everyone having cameras today. Everyone’s always pissed off at being overly P.C., but now we’ve given the people the means to royally screw with not only cops, but ordinary citizens.

I’m all for video taping police if you see a confrontation. Do I think every police man walking down a street should be video taped in case he decides to break the law? No. No more than I don’t think anyone should have the right to video tape any random person who’s not breaking the law.

How would you like it if someone video taped you passing them on the freeway, took your plate number and turned it into the police because they taped you speeding. It’s that kind of bull crap I can’t stand, turning ordinary citizens into Big Brother.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Then you wrote this garbage.[/quote]

I was just expressing my problem with everyone having cameras today. Everyone’s always pissed off at being overly P.C., but now we’ve given the people the means to royally screw with not only cops, but ordinary citizens.

I’m all for video taping police if you see a confrontation. Do I think every police man walking down a street should be video taped in case he decides to break the law? No. No more than I don’t think anyone should have the right to video tape any random person who’s not breaking the law.

How would you like it if someone video taped you passing them on the freeway, took your plate number and turned it into the police because they taped you speeding. It’s that kind of bull crap I can’t stand, turning ordinary citizens into Big Brother.[/quote]

How is being able to film people in positions of power anything but good?

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

How is being able to film people in positions of power anything but good?[/quote]

Because it makes it a Big Brother society. I am not saying if you see someone committing a crime it’s wrong to film them. By all means, do it. But should we keep cameras and microphones on people 24/7 just in case they screw up? Is that ethical or fair?

Take the case of Donald Sterling for instance. He was fired for being a racist, but his PRIVATE conversation was blasted all over the country because someone with a vendetta recorded him without his knowledge and went public with it. That’s what I’m talking about.

Who needs Big Brother. He’s here and in everyone’s hands free to ruin lives and reputations at will.

[quote]pat wrote:
You certainly bring up some good points. If I am walking down the street, doing nothing wrong, why should I be questioned, harassed or otherwise bothered? I shouldn’t be.
My brother and I decided to go for a walk one late night when we were teenagers. We were literally doing nothing but walking. We didn’t have drugs, guns, knives, nothing. We were not high on anything, we had not been drinking, we had done nothing, absolutely nothing wrong. It was probably about 1 AM on a early Saturday morning, or late night Friday if you want to look at it that way. A cop stopped us and started questioning us. With in a minute we were surrounded by 4 cop cars, lights going the full nine yards. They are flashing flashlights in our eyes to see if we were fucked up, repeating the same questions on where we live and why we were out, over and over again. They separated us and talked to us separately again repeating the same questions to see if we would fuck up or change our story and they were not nice about it. They were very aggressive and mean. Asking repeatedly, were we came from, where we were going, what we were doing. We were being polite answering their questions with ‘Yes sir’ and ‘No sir’. They detained us for nearly an hour with 6 cops, who came in 4 cop cars. They had nothing and they found nothing. We were literally out for a walk, shooting the shit and that’s it.
After all this, knowing they had nothing they would not let us walk home. Which is what we were planning to do anyway. We were just walking a big circle, just for the hell of it. We’re night people and we thought it was fun just to be out walking late at night.
2 white guys walking apparently was probable cause for harassing us. They would not let us walk home. One of the cops insisted he drive us home. He didn’t give us a choice, we wanted to walk, 'cause that’s what we were aiming to do in the first place. Nope, since he could not arrest us, he forced us to go home and he forced us into his car to drive us home. While in the car, he continually asked questions, what we were doing out, and if I know this person or that person. We got to the house, he let us out of the car and we went in and it was over. However, what the fuck? We weren’t doing anything illegal, at all. Yet they had to get us off the street. A street we had every right to walk on, at a place it was perfectly legitimate to walk on or in, in a state we had the right to walk whenever the hell we felt like walking, at a time that was perfectly legal for us to be out in.

What’s the point of this story? The point is that police have the ability to ruin your life with in a matter of minutes. They let us go that night, but they certainly would have had no problem concocting some story about us running from them, or resisting their interrogations, or whatever. All they had to do is put their word against ours and they could have if they wanted to. But they had no right to even stop us, much less do anything else they did. The deck is stacked against the average citizen. All you need is a bad cop in a bad mood and you can be randomly picked out and have your life ruined for literally doing nothing. After all who are the authorities going to believe, a police officer or 2 teenagers? We got away with breaking no law whatsoever on the basis of the good graces of the police who illegally detained us.
The reality of this is not lost on me. We live in a country were our laws are supposed to protect us from such harassment from illegal detainment, search and seizure, but that’s exactly what happened. While the law may have been on our side, the law enforcers clearly were not.
This is not the only time I have been detained or questioned by the police for no reason, either. My only crime, I can only imagine is that I was young, I looked young and the only association to crime I was having, was that some young people do illegal things and so being young, I must have been doing something wrong. After all who walks at 1 in the morning? Or drives a convertible with 3 young friends in it? And I am a white guy. Had I been black, who knows…

I have long contended that the police in this country are out of control. They have too many rights to harass you and we have virtually no rights to stop them. While, they are not supposed to stop, detain, or otherwise question you they can and do just that and it can be for no other reason but existing in a place where they share space with you.

I for one am glad people are video recording the police shooting people, or breaking legs (as in the case of the Atlanta Hawks player Thabo Sefolosha), paralyzing people, etc. Because it’s long over due that the overwhelming power entrusted to the police needs a check.

I realize there are plenty of good cops, and I have interacted with my share of them. There are also a minority of bad cops, who make the whole lot look bad. The problem isn’t with the individual cop, but the system they are able to function under virtually unchecked. It takes one bad cop with a wild hair up his ass to ruin your life. And what checks they do have are basically self checks. Their own internal affairs dept, who are members of the dept. So you have cops monitoring cops, the blue wall is real and it is impenetrable.
The stuff that is happening now isn’t new, it being revealed on such a mass scale is; good. It needs to be fixed. The system in place needs a set of checks and balances that gives citizens on the right side of the law the right to be free from being harassed while still giving police the tools to fight real crime.

Next time you get pulled over, think of what options you have… Think about what you can realistically do if the cop you are dealing with decides to be a dick. You’ll find you have no options but to be polite and hope for the best.
[/quote]

I understand that you felt as though you were being detained, but did you ask, “Am I being detained? Am I free to leave?” Was there a juvenile curfew in effect? It’s also important to understand that police officers can ask questions anytime they want to-you just don’t have to answer them(and if you’re not free to leave and haven’t been read your Miranda rights, any answers can’t be used against you). People often feel that they have been abused, but they have actually more or less consented to the encounter, at least in the eyes of the law.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:

How is being able to film people in positions of power anything but good?[/quote]

Because it makes it a Big Brother society. I am not saying if you see someone committing a crime it’s wrong to film them. By all means, do it. But should we keep cameras and microphones on people 24/7 just in case they screw up? Is that ethical or fair?

Take the case of Donald Sterling for instance. He was fired for being a racist, but his PRIVATE conversation was blasted all over the country because someone with a vendetta recorded him without his knowledge and went public with it. That’s what I’m talking about.

Who needs Big Brother. He’s here and in everyone’s hands free to ruin lives and reputations at will.
[/quote]

I would argue it does the exact opposite. Big brother society means no rights to film, no right to hold people in power accountable. Giving people access to video camera’s and the internet has in the contemporary history of the world been used in rebellions against the Iranian state, has been used to spread information to the world which lead to the death of dictators and the exposure of corruption and brutality.

That is the complete opposite of big brother. It is precisely the right to film and the rights we have to hold power accountable that separates our society from Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

[quote]YamatoDamashii92 wrote:
I would argue it does the exact opposite. Big brother society means no rights to film, no right to hold people in power accountable. Giving people access to video camera’s and the internet has in the contemporary history of the world been used in rebellions against the Iranian state, has been used to spread information to the world which lead to the death of dictators and the exposure of corruption and brutality.

That is the complete opposite of big brother. It is precisely the right to film and the rights we have to hold power accountable that separates our society from Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.[/quote]

Do you think that the vast majority of Germans or Russians cared what happened to the victims of the regimes? Do you think that those who were not victimized would have cared to film anything? I agree that filming police is a good thing, but only if people are smart enough to figure out the real problem. It seems like I’ve heard something about discussing people, events, and ideas before…there’s not much interest in discussing ideas.

I’m not and never said filming an atrocity, whether by police or by the government is a bad thing. I’m talking about a society in which EVERYONE has the right to film EVERYTHING and how this could be used to destroy someone’s life.

If you were walking down the street and suddenly for no reason someone began filming you with a cell phone, what would you do, what would you think?

What was the Marshall doing which prompted the woman to begin filming him? Was he doing anything wrong or doing his job?

Could someone film you doing your job and if they saw an infraction turn you in and have you fired?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I’m not and never said filming an atrocity, whether by police or by the government is a bad thing. I’m talking about a society in which EVERYONE has the right to film EVERYTHING and how this could be used to destroy someone’s life.

If you were walking down the street and suddenly for no reason someone began filming you with a cell phone, what would you do, what would you think?

What was the Marshall doing which prompted the woman to begin filming him? Was he doing anything wrong or doing his job?

Could someone film you doing your job and if they saw an infraction turn you in and have you fired?[/quote]

I get what you are saying dude but I think there is a massive difference between harassing a member of the public by videoing them for no reason and filming police officers. The first example has no merit, the second one leads to people who abuse their power being punished, well, sometimes anyway.

As for the Sterling incident I think it is pathetic people are judging a super old millionaire for telling his young arm piece she can fuck black dudes, just not hang out with them in public. But that is an issue with our PC, sensitive society, not the technology or the right to film which is something we need to defend, as we do all our rights.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Then you wrote this garbage.[/quote]

I was just expressing my problem with everyone having cameras today. Everyone’s always pissed off at being overly P.C., but now we’ve given the people the means to royally screw with not only cops, but ordinary citizens. [/quote]

What does that have to do with being PC?

[quote]
I’m all for video taping police if you see a confrontation. Do I think every police man walking down a street should be video taped in case he decides to break the law? No. No more than I don’t think anyone should have the right to video tape any random person who’s not breaking the law. [/quote]

Not everyone shares this opinion and a police officers, whose actions can result in imprisonment and death, are not exactly the same as random people walking down the street.

If citizens want to record the police of their own free will, I’m perfectly fine with that.

[quote]
How would you like it if someone video taped you passing them on the freeway, took your plate number and turned it into the police because they taped you speeding. It’s that kind of bull crap I can’t stand, turning ordinary citizens into Big Brother.[/quote]

I will feel joy as the judge laughed the prosecutor out of court.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I’m all for video taping police if you see a confrontation. Do I think every police man walking down a street should be video taped in case he decides to break the law? No. No more than I don’t think anyone should have the right to video tape any random person who’s not breaking the law.
[/quote]
I think you meant to say that you don’t think people should have the right to record anyone who is not breaking a law. How would you go about ensuring that doesn’t happen? Nobody has a right to privacy. Such a right would be a “positive” right, in that it would impose obligations on everyone but the holder of the right. I agree that this is a Big Brother society, but that is not because of a failure to recognize a nonexistent “right.”