hey bill. thanks for the great info so far. this might be a bit off topic. but what are your thoughts on 6-oxo?
[quote]subfission wrote:
I might be too young (20)to be getting significant results from this, but the only benefit I have experienced is a mild buzz that is similar to caffeine. My lifts haven’t significantly changed. I’m not sure if this is accurate for everyone, but it seems the best time to use this is right after a workout while your drinking the PWO shake. I always get a nice burning sensation from the alcohol that is relaxing.
Am I using this wrong or is it not as effective for younger people? I spray 3-4 times a day about 7-8 times. Should I spray more when I work out? Is there a known LD for this? Is it safe to assume removing the alcohol and injecting is a bad idea?[/quote]
Even anabolic steroids do not ordinarily give, unless it’s by psychological effect or increased neural drive, noticeable strength gains within just a couple of days. It is unrealistic to expect such extreme speed.
I don’t know why you’re adopting your own application protocol. Furthermore it sounds as if your total number of sprays is only 21-32, so you’re expecting results faster than anabolic steroids while using only half the recommended amount or less.
It is safe to assume that removing the alcohol and injecting it is a bad idea.
[quote]risian wrote:
Quick Questions:
I thought that I saw Bill say that this is not a spot treatment spray. Yet I keep hearing people worry about not spraying all of their body parts and that they will make sure to spray missed body parts on the next dose.
Am I missing something? If I spray it on the legs arms and torso and only those areas the effects will be the same as the guy who covers his whole body correct? I should only worry about covering other areas if I am too small to cover 35 sprays on the legs torso and arms correct?
[/quote]
There should be a local effect in reduction of dermal fat and so for that reason, out of the approximately 50% of the available area one has to choose from, one might preferentially spray areas where that effect was more desired. Or one might rotate it or just not worry about it.
Subcutaneous fat should, I believe, be affected equally around the body regardless of where the spray is applied, as sub-Q adipose tissue does not get its blood supply from the overlying skin but gets fresh blood from the heart.
[quote]rnl wrote:
thanks Bill. have another question. put on my first application wed nite and then another thurs morn. worked out thurs eve and in fact had a much better than ususal work out - actually lifted more than usual - considerably so… coincidence (we all have a good day now and then…)? psychological affect? this stuff can’t work that well/fast - can it?
[/quote]
Not that fast in terms of there being more contractile protein in the muscles. But there’s individual variation in how much strength may be affected on an immediate basis from neurological stimulation. For example some powerlifters see better lifts taking methyltestosterone or Cheque Drops a matter of minutes before a lift – the improvement has nothing to do with increased muscle but only the nervous system increasing muscle activation – while others see absolutely zero or something pretty negligible from this.
The same could well be true of the stimulatory effect of 11-T.
The good news is, if your nervous system is enabled to work the muscles harder, which is the case if you’re lifting more, that increases training effect on the muscle and will help gains. So it’s not meaningless, just not a sign of having immediately increased the amount of contractile protein: that takes a little time.
[quote]Panamared wrote:
Is using Rhodiola Rosea a waste while on 11-T?[/quote]
I would think not. The argument against it, that the 11-T probably aids recovery and therefore an additional recovery agent is a waste, would if it held up also apply to anabolic steroids. Even moreso it would be true (if it were) that if using the juice, then there would be no point to using Rhodiola as recovery was already enhanced.
But I believe and have personally found that is not so: if training optimally for whatever the conditions are, then further improvement of recovery with Rhodiola is beneficial.
Only if training like a slacker while on 11-T would the Rhodiola be a waste, IMO.
What if your a Hairy mofo… I’m not hairy but have hair on my chest arms legs… basically on the spray spots… would shaving these areas be better for application? Also, having hair there means that some will also get on the hair… will it rub off on anyone?
Brazilian wax anyone?? lol.
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
What if your a Hairy mofo… I’m not hairy but have hair on my chest arms legs… basically on the spray spots… would shaving these areas be better for application? Also, having hair there means that some will also get on the hair… will it rub off on anyone?
Brazilian wax anyone?? lol.[/quote]
It’s been mentioned before. If you notice drops keep getting stuck in the hair it may be a good idea to shave them down. If it looks like it’s getting on the skin ok, then no worries.
I’m not super hairy but I used my clippers just to make sure it’s not an issue.
This would explain why I haven’t had DOMS at all this week, or even a slight feeling of it.
I posted in another thread about not feeling it in my legs, but that was due to a low volume workout I thought. I then started thinking and noticed I didn’t have any in my chest as well.
I would assume this would be a good time to increase volume then?
Third day on it now (2 x 35ish sprays/daily)…and easily visible fat-loss in my belly and chest- others have noticed it too. My last two workouts were pretty good; lifting the same amount of weight, but for a few more reps.
For only three days on, I like where this is headed. Being able to drop fat and not only maintain strength, but have slightly more strength makes it totally worth it at this point.
Anyone else experiencing the same?
So I got my first 'spray-on" this morning, I think I got the application part right. Like another poster suggested, the trick is not to hold the bottle static as spraying, but think of it as using a spray can or airbrush application, moving as you go. It took me about 8 sprays to cover my front torso and arms, no blotches…
No kidding about keeping the windows open, it almost seems as if you need a gas mask to apply! Is there any risks of taking too much of this stuff via inhaling? It sure felt as if I took a bit of it that way. On the other hand, the “cooling effect” is absolutely awesome! especially after taking a shower first thing in the morning. I wouldn’t mind buying a cheaper product JUST for that effect!
I just went outside and felt like I could deadlift a pick-up truck, so I DID! Is that the 11-T acting up?? Mmhh, maybe not…
[/jk]
I’m having lunch now and I feel a bit nauseous, which is strange, but at this point I can’t attribute it to anything…
Will report again later once I notice any “changes”.
[quote]HelmetMJC wrote:
hey bill. thanks for the great info so far. this might be a bit off topic. but what are your thoughts on 6-oxo?[/quote]
Well, you’re asking me to comment on another supplement company’s product, which generally I don’t personally think appropriate.
But in this case there’s a bit of a rare exception to that as there’s a recent interesting study which would add to discussion:
Now, it is impossible to tell from the abstract whether the chemical analysis was done in a valid manner or not. If they used an immunological method then the data could well be crap. But if it’s GC/MS, then it’s what happened.
Also their not finding body composition changes really does not prove anything, as there are lots of studies that have failed to find positive body composition changes from anabolic steroids, yet we do know that they work.
It just that some studies fail to find effects that do exist. So, when seeing no result in something like this study, really the correct reaction is “Hmmm” not “Well that proves it doesn’t work!”
I never did think that the compound would increase muscle by the mechanism that it’s generally assumed to work by, because pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors are not muscle builders for (relatively) younger men not suffering from testosterone deficiency.
So why would a supplement-type aromatase inhibitor be expected to add muscle by that mechanism?
But the fact is that many customers do feel they get gains from it, so I’ve assumed that the mechanism of benefit is probably different than what is generally assumed. (An example other mechanism could be as a precursor of 6-oxotestosterone, if that compound is active. I don’t know if it is.)
It’s a product that has been successful on the market long-term, and I am personally confident that if it did not work in terms of giving discernible benefit, Patrick Arnold would have spotted that long ago. OK, 'nuff said.
The cooling effect and the “fragrance” are the same thing, menthol. It’s harmless but some people pick up the smell more sensitively than others.
[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
On the other hand, the “cooling effect” is absolutely awesome! especially after taking a shower first thing in the morning. I wouldn’t mind buying a cheaper product JUST for that effect!
[/quote]
If you continue feeling that way, save the sprayer bottle and buy some 91% isopropyl rubbing alcohol at the drugstore (11-T uses 99% but the difference will matter little) and some menthol.
While not disclosing how much menthol 11-T uses, I can tell you that 0.5% to 2% (w/v) is a typical range for topical products.
What w/v means is weight to volume: so for example 1% w/v would be 1 gram of menthol per 100 mL of isopropyl alcohol.
I’m not positive you can find a supplier that will sell you menthol, as many suppliers are pains in the asses about selling only to companies, but hopefully you can do it.
[quote]Willith wrote:
Third day on it now (2 x 35ish sprays/daily)…and easily visible fat-loss in my belly and chest- others have noticed it too. My last two workouts were pretty good; lifting the same amount of weight, but for a few more reps.
For only three days on, I like where this is headed. Being able to drop fat and not only maintain strength, but have slightly more strength makes it totally worth it at this point.
Anyone else experiencing the same?[/quote]
I have visible fast-loss around my torso as well
I think this may have been asked before but i did not see an answer (i don’t think) but should we refridgerate/freeze the stuff?
[quote]zbelair wrote:
I think this may have been asked before but i did not see an answer (i don’t think) but should we refridgerate/freeze the stuff?[/quote]
It would be optional for very long-term storage, un-needed for storage of only months’ time.
No reason to do it for ongoing use, and it would be a pain because it would be necessary to allow time to re-warm and re-dissolve each time before use.
so would this be a IOC legal and safe and good product for an oly lifted trying to drop a weightclass and maintain muscle? Kinda hesitant about the hormone part but if legal and safe… Why not?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
subfission wrote:
I might be too young (20)to be getting significant results from this, but the only benefit I have experienced is a mild buzz that is similar to caffeine.
My lifts haven’t significantly changed. I’m not sure if this is accurate for everyone, but it seems the best time to use this is right after a workout while your drinking the PWO shake. I always get a nice burning sensation from the alcohol that is relaxing.
Am I using this wrong or is it not as effective for younger people? I spray 3-4 times a day about 7-8 times. Should I spray more when I work out? Is there a known LD for this? Is it safe to assume removing the alcohol and injecting is a bad idea?
Even anabolic steroids do not ordinarily give, unless it’s by psychological effect or increased neural drive, noticeable strength gains within just a couple of days. It is unrealistic to expect such extreme speed.
I don’t know why you’re adopting your own application protocol. Furthermore it sounds as if your total number of sprays is only 21-32, so you’re expecting results faster than anabolic steroids while using only half the recommended amount or less.
[/quote]
I made the assumption that because I am younger, I may need less. But thanks for the input if I have any questions at the end of the cycle I’ll be sure to ask.
[quote]romanaz wrote:
so would this be a IOC legal and safe and good product for an oly lifted trying to drop a weightclass and maintain muscle? Kinda hesitant about the hormone part but if legal and safe… Why not?[/quote]
I do not believe it would fail a drug test, but as to whether they would consider it legal, I don’t know.
I perceive the mentality involved as sort of, If a supplement doesn’t do too much, then it’s OK. But if it enhances performance in a major way, then it is evil, is cheating, and should be banned.
So for example, pregnenolone is OK. But if it were proven that it made sprinters much faster, or dramatically increased weights Olympic lifters were putting up, etc (of course it does not do these things in fact; this is an example) then it would be evil and would have to be banned.
The key to being acceptable to tin-plated sports dictators is to be an under or nonperformer as a performance enhancer. (Personal opinion.)
[quote]subfission wrote:
I made the assumption that because I am younger, I may need less. But thanks for the input if I have any questions at the end of the cycle I’ll be sure to ask.[/quote]
Please do!
Being slightly younger would be unlikely to increase sensitivity. Dose response is probably about identical.
As to your being 20 not 21, you’re past the age of majority, are old enough to serve your country if you choose; so far as I have anyone of knowing you might in fact be doing so. (I’m astounded by those that think it’s OK to tell a US serviceman that he’s too young to choose to have a beer, as an example of the same general principle.)
So while it is against our recommendations it’s your personal decision. I find it hard to see how a few months difference is likely to be a big deal in terms of effect on the body. There’s fundamentally no sharp cut-off and it’s subject to individual variation as to when physical maturation is basically completed or is still in process.