I think you’re blowing the information request out of proportion. I think quite a few people would be satisfied with hearing the results of say, 10 people on 11-T. I mean, how can you advertise that the product works if you haven’t tested it? You don’t have to pay people to test Biotest products…hell, people here are falling all over themselves to pay for it.
We’re not asking for peer reviewed publication of a scientific study, we’d just like to see the type of results posted that your average forum-goer is going to post in a few weeks after they’ve had a chance to try it…not too much to ask, is it?
Now in and of itself, if you screen, say 100,000 compounds initially (which for the rest of you guys is fairly usual), and come up with say 1000 that give a P value of <0.05 that doesn’t really say anything. But at least it gives you a starting pool for likely candidates, right? I don’t know of any other alternative arrangement in any case. It’s the best money can do IMHO. Or do I miss your point?[/quote]
Yes, absolutely the testing is useful for identifying candidates. Some may eventually prove to extremely high confidence to be in fact effective; but many will not.
The problem comes with scientists and most readers of scientific studies having an overwhelming tendency to misconstrue what an apparently-good statistical significance figure really means with reference to whether the proposition is true – by itself, rather little. There are far too many cases where there is only a single study on something, to statistical significance that’s good enough for publication and “sounds good” to most, and the reader takes from that that the effect is probably real.
Because of the vast number of studies that are done on things that are at least somewhat unlikely (if the only science done was checking to see if things that were highly likely were true, this would vastly limit discoveries: it’s necessary to have some people that examine unlikely things) there are many things where there is zero real effect that by chance will be lucky and show a positive effect by chance-only in even say 3 out of 3 studies. It does happen, though the more studies to moderate significance that all do check out, the more likely the proposition is to be true.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Secondly, for reasons I’ve already explained although you feel it would be a really meaningful thing and you’re completely entitled to feel however you want about what is meaningful to you, it really is not meaningful. Doing that with very small sets of data can readily be more deceptive than meaningful. So I wouldn’t do it if I had it.
[/quote]
I’m adding two to my cart, simply for the concise wording here. I actually read it 3x. Well done.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
HunterKiller wrote:
jisboss wrote:
It has arrived.
Could you post some before pictures of yourself, and then 2 week pictures and 4 week? I am fascinated by this product, and would like to know if I should save up for it.
I’m doing a thread about it in T-Cell. I’ll add pics after 2 weeks, 4 weeks assuming I see a difference.[/quote]
That should be interesting to follow.
I may start my own log as well, but it’ll be at least month or so before I do that. (Still recovering from injury)
I think you’re blowing the information request out of proportion. I think quite a few people would be satisfied with hearing the results of say, 10 people on 11-T. I mean, how can you advertise that the product works if you haven’t tested it? You don’t have to pay people to test Biotest products…hell, people here are falling all over themselves to pay for it.
We’re not asking for peer reviewed publication of a scientific study, we’d just like to see the type of results posted that your average forum-goer is going to post in a few weeks after they’ve had a chance to try it…not too much to ask, is it?[/quote]
Right, I understand. and as I said earlier, I’m not trying to be harsh at all. but you gotta have data before you can even pretend to post some “ballpark results”. But also, realize that where companies are concerned that a lot of actual testing is done in-house (as Bill alluded to a few pages ago), and is also considered proprietary for reasons of industry competition. It sucks, but is the nature of the beast. I do recall them doing or reporting a study on Carbolin 19 when that came out (you can see the results of that in the ad copy for the Carbolin 19).
But as I said, small data sets are decried as useless or with the possibility of being dangerously deceptive, as Bill said (and I agree with him, although I still usually like to have some data as opposed to no data, so I know where you’re coming from), and large data sets are prohibitive based on cost/trouble. So I understand why they would not want to post specific numbers.
What happens if they say, " you might be able to gain 6 pounds in 3 weeks", and some guy gains 3 pounds and loses fat at the same time? He might go “well I didn’t gain 6 pounds so I want my money back” or maybe assume it didn’t work. Imagine lots of people going " I didn’t gain x pounds so give me back my money" even though the product worked. It’s a catch-22 really. Small data sets give no reliability for a general population in any way shape or form unless the data is extraordinary and reproducible. I like studies as well as the next guy due to my science background, but I also understand why they might not want to give specific numbers.
Thank you Bill for your super-prompt responses. Getting started with it in a couple of days, I will report back soon.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Oops, missed part of the questions:
m1sf1t wrote:
I would really like to just get my spraying done in the mornings and forget about it. Do you see that as a productive way of using it and STILL getting results? Or should I find a way to work in the second spraying to really see results? Is there anything else you would recommend? By the way, I’m still planning to do the 2-weeks ON/OFF cycling.
Lastly, I usually wear cologne, do you see any problems with that even if 11-T has already dried?
Yes, there should still be satisfactory effect, just not as much, from once a day.
The cologne should be no problem unless the application amount is truly ridiculous, which I’m sure it’s not in your case, and anyway I would tend to think cologne wouldn’t be applied to the same areas. But if for some reason it were, and applied lightly, it should not matter.
Bill if you had to be ripped in 6 weeks time which would be more effective - half the maximum dose continuously for 6 weeks or 2 weeks on 2 weeks off 2 weeks on ?
I didn’t mean to “flay” anyone – if there was that appearance in a couple of cases, hopefully it was reasonably civil at least. (Ten to fifteen years ago, I did have a problem with coming down on people with rhetoric that was just too hard on occasion and hoped I had overcome it, as it most surely was not the best way to be.)
[/quote]
No, no. I was exaggerating. You were more than civil, I just enjoy watching someone who is articulate and intelligent properly disintegrate a poorly thought out argument. In fact, I live for it.
Thank you for answering my question regarding lifting up to 14 hours after the first application. I am very excited to start using the product, though my intensity period in my 5x5 isn’t due for a few more weeks. I’ll just have to stare at it wondering what is locked up in the fabric of its chemicals.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Sorry if this has already been asked but:
will this show up on a drug test for sports and
if it will what is the detection period?
Thanks!
It should not, as it’s not a banned substance, does not metabolize to a banned substance, and is naturally present in the body in pretty large amounts.
If it becomes banned, the detection period will be short because of it being necessary only for levels to drop back to the normal range, rather than all the way to very nearly zero as is necessary with substances not naturally present in the body.
[quote]HD8 wrote:
Bill if you had to be ripped in 6 weeks time which would be more effective - half the maximum dose continuously for 6 weeks or 2 weeks on 2 weeks off 2 weeks on ?[/quote]
If it were me, because the final stages are harder, I would want the maximum effect in the last few weeks. The need for “help” is greater as bodyfat gets lower and lower but the desire is to get lower yet.
Bill, i had my a.m. cortisol blood work done not too long ago, would it be possible to see the effects of 11-T on this test or am i mis-understanding the function of the product? thanks
[quote]toughcasey wrote:
bill, i had my a.m. cortisol blood work done not too long ago, would it be possible to see the effects of 11-T on this test or am i mis-understanding the function of the product? thanks[/quote]
I’m confused as to why people say the are going to have cortisol tests before and after 11-T use.
I think Bill has said that 11-T shouldn’t significantly alter systemic cortisol levels because it’s tissue specific.
[quote] Bill Roberts wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Sorry if this has already been asked but:
will this show up on a drug test for sports and
if it will what is the detection period?
Thanks!
It should not, as it’s not a banned substance, does not metabolize to a banned substance, and is naturally present in the body in pretty large amounts.
If it becomes banned, the detection period will be short because of it being necessary only for levels to drop back to the normal range, rather than all the way to very nearly zero as is necessary with substances not naturally present in the body.
[/quote]
Would it be feasible for tests to detect elevated metabolites?
[quote]The Ronin wrote:
No much talk about this today. Hmm…I realize it’s only been 1-2 days, but I really figured I’d see more “initial impression” posts.
[/quote]
It probably takes at least 5 to 14 days for any body comp changes. Strength might come sooner though.
[quote]The Ronin wrote:
No much talk about this today. Hmm…I realize it’s only been 1-2 days, but I really figured I’d see more “initial impression” posts.
Regardless, I ordered. [/quote]
The soonest anyone would have received it would have been yesterday. Mine is sitting on my doorstep as I type this.
It was already posted in this thread that it gives off a bit of a menthol/vick’s vapo rub smell but goes away when it dries.
sorry if this has been asked, or i missed it in the article. but what is the effect of the non-used cortisol on the body? as i understand it, this product does not diminish the amount of cortisol produced, it only blocks it at certain points. for example, if only half the usual amount of cortisol is used, what becomes of the rest, and what possible effects does this unused portion have on the body, if any?
Product arrived today. I applied my first dose at 2:00 PM. I don’t believe that I can apply all the body parts recommended to cover with just 35 sprays. It took 55 sprays to cover my arms and legs complete and my front torso. I refrained from doing the back since I was already 20 sprays over the recommended use.
I was dry within a few minutes and I didn’t have any white residue so I’m thinking I was applying it properly.
I did get a tingling sensation mostly in the torso area for the first 30 minutes after application.
Mine arrived today–I did the maximum dose (35 sprays), had a slight overspray in two areas. I don’t feel anything yet and am not expecting to so soon, but I’ll gauge its effects tonight when I spar–I’ve been feeling less aggressive lately, hopefully the 11-T will help increase my feeling of drive and aggression.
Bill, is it supposed to feel like icy-hot all over my body, and I know what you mean by white residue from over spray… I tried not to but it isnt quite clear where it is sprayed since it comes out as mist…
Had to step out of the bathroom because the smell was so over-powering. Yeah pretty hard to cover every inch of the body with 35 sprays, but I’d say you can get MOST of it. Definitely going to have to have my gf help spray my back somehow- it’s very hard.
I have a tingling sensation in my ab area, but much more so between my bicep and forearm (where the elbow bends on the inside)
EDIT: I did get white residue in a couple places on my arms- no where else though.