Interesting finding re: cabaser. I had not heard that. May I ask where you learned that little factoid?
As for research grade materials, I too have found variances in effectiveness. With A-dex, for instance, I found I would need close to 1mg/day of one particular manufacturer’s product. After switching manufacturers, I quickly learned I needed nowhere near that high a dose.
Lesson well learned.
As for Bill’s comments of solubility…he only mentions a “literature report” -but does not elaborate.
Perhaps he will chime in soon.
edit
Perhaps you were being glib, but as far as the dissolution process…I have found that crushing the pellets first works very well.
In fact, if you place the pellets into a fairly durable drinking straw (with ends taped shut), a rolling-pin or even a gently wielded hammer will make quick work of the process.
[quote]skroohead wrote:
Hi Bill,
I’m intensely confused by your synovex directions. You mentioned that the preparation process is very similar to the Finaplix prep, so I attempted to corroborate them, but I am still left with many questions.
I will start out with your TA recipe in order to better compare your TP recipe.
To produce 60mg/ml trenbolone acetate using Finaplix-H:
(for the sake of this example, we are using 1mg of pellets)
1)Add 1g pellets to vial
2)Add 1.67 ml BB and let dissolve
3)Add Wesson oil to produce total volume of 16.67ml
4)Filter
To produce 100mg/mL of testosterone propitiate using Synovex-H:
(for the sake of this example we are using 1mg of pellets)
1)Add 1g pellets to vial
2)Add Wesson oil to produce total volume of 16.67 ml and let dissolve
3)Filter
It seems to me that preparing TP is even easier than preparing TA. I gather from your analysis that no BB is needed in TP prep because estradiol benzoate is only marginally soluble in soy oil. The TP, however, is nearly completely soluble within this same base. Is this correct?
More questions:
1)Where does the binder go? I assume that it is non-soluble within the soy oil, and it consequently settles on the bottom and can thus be safely removed.
2)Is 16.67 the correct multiple to calculate volume? If so, is this amount added all at one time in Step 2 in the TP recipe? Or would that dissolve too much EB, and thus one would arrive at the desired overall volume in 2 to 3 stages of adding oil? I.e. the first stage would only be say 5ml oil (for example), which would be enough to dissolve the TP in its entirety while mitigating the absorption of EB. From there the EB left undissolved would be separated (how? through a filter?) and then more oil would be added to produce the desired volume.
3)How are the complicated alternative methods, such as the use of methanol to create crystals different from the final product produced via the above process?
I hope the above questions are not confusing. Thank you for your time. You have been a tremendous asset to the board.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
But on the original starting value of 100 to 1, and the solubility of TP in Wesson oil having earlier been established as 100 mg/mL (though I can’t recall for sure if any BA was used, I believe it was not)[/quote]
I very much apologize for posting a quite erroneous statement that very unfortunately was seriously misleading. My memory failed me not only at the specific time of the post but in the general time frame in question.
I had previously (about 8 or 10 years previously) achieved 50 mg/mL with TP in vegetable oil, not 100 mg/mL.
I hadn’t followed up with this method since posting it, now favoring using the TP product from the folks that are advanced in stealth, but recently had it brought to my attention that I had in this post put the solubility at this wrong value and certainly wanted to correct it.
On skroohead’s questions: My reply now is probably uselessly late, as I wasn’t active on the board during the time it was being asked and bumped and did not see the questions till now. But just in case:
[quote]skroohead wrote:
To produce 100mg/mL of testosterone propitiate using Synovex-H:
(for the sake of this example we are using 1mg of pellets)
1)Add 1g pellets to vial
2)Add Wesson oil to produce total volume of 16.67 ml and let dissolve
3)Filter[/quote]
First, due to my above error in at the time misremembering the amount of TP I had previously been able to dissolve in straight vegetable oil as 100 mg/mL when it was actually 50 mg/mL.
An amount of pellets nominally containing 1 gram of TP ought then to go into a final total volume of 20 mL.
Your 16.67 mL figure would apply to a 60 mg/mL preparation.
Actually no, because at least the way I do the TA, it is easy to filter. Whereas the TP product was a giant pain in the ass to filter.
Not with those exact words. The TP is very many times more soluble, but solubility is still limited.
Yes
The above very simple method only reduces the amount of estradiol benzoate to the same proportion that exists between the solubilities of testosterone propionate and estradiol benzoate in vegetable oil.
If the solubility ratio is the same as in hexane (it almost surely is not the same but hexane provides a starting guessing point) then this is about a 100:1 ratio.
If the intent is to use only a modest amount of the resulting testosterone propionate and especially if the intent, as it was in my case, is to provide the estrogen lacking in a totally non-aromatazing steroid cycle such as a trenbolone based cycle without Dianabol or other aromatizing steroid and also without HCG, then the presence of this small amount of estrogen is fine.
However, if the thought is, “This preparation is going to be my one steroid: the Synovex is all I have” then it would be better to use a method removing more of the estrogen, as greater dosages would be desired.
The recrystallization methods are intended to, and in at least one case are able to, reduce the proportion of estradiol benzoate to below what this method does.
Here is further info. I can post links to prove I am correct if anyone wants to check.
For methanol — Testosterone Priopionate is FREELY SOLUBLE and Estrodiol Benzoate is SLIGHTLY
SOLUBLE .
FOR VEG Oil (Wesson type) Testosterone Propionate is SOLUBLE and Estrodiol Benoate is
SPARINGLY SOLUBLE
The secret to getting rid of the estrodiol Benzoate is using the least amount of the methanol or Wesson oil to absorb all the Testosteron Propionate while absorbiling the least amount of Estrodiol Benzoate.
I will do the methanol method here:. You start out with 20 grams of Syno ( $ 85 ).
you do 4 recrystalizations and you lose 10 % total product each time. You end up with 14 grams left.
If you use the above #s you end up losing 90 % of the estrodiol and about 30 % of the Test Propionate. It is worth it . your test P cost you $ 6.05 a gram of powder.
I recomment using two types of Anti Estrogens as precations and have Both IN HAND prior to doing this . Femara is pretty cheap and stop the testosteron from turning to estrogen. NOlva will stop the any estrogen that is left from the conversion of SYNO from making you grow breaats.
Perhaps oddly, the terms “freely soluble,” “sparingly soluble,” and “slightly soluble” have specific pharmaceutical meanings, though only in terms of ranges, not exact values.
Specifically, in terms of grams of substance to mL of solvent:
freely soluble: 1 in 1 to 1 in 10
soluble: 1 in 10 to 1 in 30
sparingly soluble: 1 in 30 to 1 in 100
slightly soluble: 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000
very slightly soluble: 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000
insoluble, or practically insoluble: 1 in more than 10,0000
I can find out the specific amount of methanol that will hold the Testosterone Propionate on the second recrystalization. I can’t do it on the first one as there are binders I am disolving. So for the first Recrystalization I will error on the side of caution and make a small batch of 1 gram of syno. I will use the high end (10 ml of methanol) and after that is done I will measure the Syno powder without the binders and should have about .9 gram ( 10 % loss).
Then I will measure the amount of methanol that I slowly add to disolve and hold the .9 gram crystals or powder so it does not crash. This is the REAL value that I will use from now on. It most likely is in the middle and about 5 ml of methanol (guess).
The 1 ml to 10ml is a WIDE amount and that is where the problem is. If the amount is towards the 1 ml vs the 10 ml then I can reduce the estrodiol benzoate.
According to the decriptions for the solubity of Veg oil your 50 mg/ml is in the middle of the range. The range I came up with is 30 mg/ml to 100 mg/ml with 65 mg/ml being in the middle. The only way to find out for sure is to do the 4 recrystalizations and then see how little veg oil is needed to hold the solution without crashing.
Hey Bill- this is very interesting. How did you figure this stuff out?
Could you post the method using hexane? I’m guessing hexane is difficult to buy, maybe someone knows of a common nonpolar solvent. Perhaps ethyl acetate. Or butane but that’s not liquid at room temp. I’ve read about people using butane gas to extract chemicals though.
Testosterone without any ester should not be supplied in oil, as the half-life is a matter of hours according to the one paper that I read that measured that.
Oops – I was responding to the end of page 1, above. Namely Testolius’ question on whether testosterone with no ester should be supplied in oil or as an aqueous suspension.
Lover95, the supersaturated hexane method mentioned in the very first post requires a rotavap. This is because the evaporation must be fairly rapid to allow the TP and EB to become supersaturated (as the hexane evaporates away) without crystallizing. If the evaporation is done just in a pan or whatever, crystals will form and a strongly supersaturated solution will not be obtained.
For anyone doing the recrystalization method with Finaplex to remove the binders the solubility of trenbolone acatate is 1 gram per 3 ml of methanol. See the link below and look at PAGE 4 for proof.
If I understand correctly, the testosterone dissolves in nonpolar solvents (like the oils), while the estradiol dissolves in polar solvents, because of the esters or something. Maybe if if the pellets were dissolved in the right amount of a nonpolar solvent, the testosterone would dissolve, while the estradiol wouldn’t.
Then the testosterone solution could be skimmed with a separatory funnel. I guess that’s basically what youre saying with the oil, but that method doesn’t have a physical seperation like with the funnel, and I’d guess using a specific amount of a very nonpolar solvent would be more exact.
I googled rotovac and it seems like theyre just for big labs. I’m sure there’s a cheaper way to do it, maybe just evaporating the hexane in a vaccuum until theres the right amount of hexane to only dissolve the testosterone.
If the test p is chemically different from the estradiol benzonate I’m sure there’s a reasonable way to do one of those types of extractions.
No, between estradiol benzoate and testosterone propionate the “preference” between solvents according to polarity is rather slight.
Both have similar ratios of solubilities between solvents; but EB is much less soluble in each of them.
The supersaturation method works because the provided seed crystal of TP causes the TP to crystallize out, but the EB doesn’t have a seed crystal and hasn’t had time to form a first crystal of its own, and thus does not crystallize.
On your last thought: If the ester is cleaved from EB leaving just plain estradiol, then now there is more difference between the steroids.
Therefore if the amount of EB was no greater than sufficient to saturate the solution, the amount of TP is near saturation, and then the EB is cleaved to estradiol, now the estradiol is well below saturation and TP can be crystallized by changing the solvent properties – e.g. adding water – while for some time not causing EB to crystallize, except to the extent where some of it incorporates itself randomly into the TP crystals. (Or perhaps not so much into the crystals but rather principally on the surface: I don’t have specific facts on this.)
I do not have the links in front of me that say the solubility of test P and esrtodiol E but I can find them if anyone doubts me.
I also found out that Trenbolon Acetate is Freely soluble in Methanol and I got the exact amount too !
1 gram of Trenbolon acatate will be solubile in 3 ml of Methanol.
This is important. If finaplex or Component H go away and the only products will have estrodiol benzoate you need to know the solubility so you can add the least amount of methanol to the solution and then add water to recrystalize and not recrystize the estrodiol Benzoate.
It will be similar tot eh Syno 4 times recrystaization method.
Unfortunately, dissolving into methanol at the most concentrated solution possible and then adding water – without cleaving the benzoate ester – will precipitate estradiol benzoate at about the same ratio as testosterone propionate.
One might just as well follow the method of dissolving straight into the vehicle, using an amount of product which will yield a saturated solution of the active steroid; allow to settle, then filter.
As the solubilities in oil vehicle of trenbolone acetate and testosterone propionate are similar, the ratio of undesired estradiol benzoate to desired active would be about the same as when I followed this method for Synovex.
It was okay in my case, where dosing was low (I forget how many mg/week but it wasn’t anything high, as this was only supplemental to a trenbolone cycle rather than the base of a cycle) and given the situation that I’m not on the highly-prone side with regard to sensitivity to estrogen.
To really get rid of the estrogen, it would be necessary to cleave the benzoate ester before employing the recrystallization, if using the above method.
with methanol : Testosterone propionate is FREELY SOLUBLE 1 part to 10 parts
Estrodiol Benzoate is SLIGHTLY SOLUBLE 100 to 1000 parts
I can post links to pharmacutical sites where I got the descriptions for the two above hormones with the attached esters for the solubility in Methanol.
(I see on many bodybuilding sites guys like Basskiller say that BOTH Test P and Estrodiol B are FREELY soluble in Methanol and that is NOT TRUE.)
If I were to use say 1 gram of test Prop to 10 parts methanol I would make the test Prop completely soluble but the estrodiol Benzoate would not be completely soluble as it needs much more Methanole to dissolve in.
Your theory for the Veg Oil is based on a similar premise.
Veg oil solubility for Test Prop is Soluble 1 gram test Prop ( 10 to 30 parts)
Estrodiol Benzoate is sparingly Soluble 1 gram (30 to 100 parts)
If you added just one gram of Syno to 30 parts of Veg oil then all the test Prop would be soluble and little if any of the estrodiol benzoate would be soluble.
The range of solubility of the Veg oil ranges from 30 mg/ ml to 100 mg/ml with 65 mg/ml being in the middle so I agree with you about the 50 mg/ml goal.
What I am confused about is that you are saying that if I add cold distilled water to the methanol solution that BOTH the Testosterone Propionate and estrodiol Benzoate will both crystalize at the SAME ratio as before? I would think the low amount of methanol would work against the estrodial benzoate as it is SLIGHTLY Soluble in Methanol and I am using so little.
add the methanol to the syno pellets and let dissolve.
filter with a coffee filter to get out the binders and fillers
add distilled water to the solution to make crystals
weight the crystals and add just enough methanol to disolve the crystals based on the 1 gram to 1 to 10 solubility testosterone propionate in methanol. Say i have 5 grams of syno crystals. I take 10 x 5 = 50 ml of methanol added to the crystals.
fitler this with a whatsman filter.
you should now have only methanol with test Prop in it. Estrodiol benzoate should have been filtered out with the whatman.
add distilled water (cold) slowly to make nice big crystals. Dry crystals completely.
then add powder to the Grapeseed oil and filter with another NEW whatsman filter
This will have a ratio of estradiol benzoate to testosterone propionate equal to the ratio of their solubilities in methanol, which probably is not too different from their ratio in oil.
Compared to dissolving straight into oil, there is probably no benefit to this extra step. Either way, this proportion of EB will be there.
If there’s a difference in ratio between methanol and oil, I don’t know which way it would be. I’d tend to expect the oil to offer a lower ratio of EB to TP though. Of course you’d still get that benefit on your later addition to oil, followed by filtering.
However, if planning to use substantial amounts of benzyl benzoate and/or benzyl alcohol, your intermediate step with the methanol crystallization may well offer an advantage, because the ratio of EB solubility to TP solubility would be expected to be much higher for BB and BA than for methanol or vegetable oil.