Socio-Sexual Hierarchy

It’s easy to see why these classifications are appealing. While they are not entirely wrong, they are definitely misguided. There are 3 issues I’ve never seen addressed by any promoters of such theories:

  1. Modeling behavior on the social interactions of wolves or primates is inevitably flawed given the vast difference in the size of our social circles.

Depending on the paper, researchers believe the human brain can process about 150-231 close “friends” whereas chimps have loose communities of 30-80 (more often towards the lower number) and the average wolf pack is about 7 wolves. Such a difference in group size will inevitably result in major differences in the way people interact with one another.

  1. The other problem with these theories is not that the roles themselves are not necessarily invalid but they are too rigid assume that people play a single role all the time. Since people have many more social circles than animals, we adopt different roles for different groups. The “alpha” star professor of the biology department at a big university might have plenty of luck with women on campus but subsequently could find himself the “gamma” of a blue collar bar.

  2. I don’t understand why these classifications are important or how they will lead to a better life. In short - these “game” systems don’t answer the important questions in life. If we dumb down human interaction to the level of animals, we are forsaking the highly developed cortex that is our birthright. What makes the pep talk on the first page valid? Why should we jump from one distraction (computer games) to another (manipulating women)? No matter what way you look at it both are only temporary distractions from an unpleasant reality.

[quote]orion wrote:
Alpha characteristics

Posted by xsplat on October 11, 2012

There is no such ?thing? as a human alpha.

But a term was needed to encompass the set of traits that are attractive to women, and it is now convention to use the term alpha within the context of seduction to describe that set. In other contexts instead of talking about being a lady?s man, people use it to describe a man?s man. A virtuous leader of men. In other contexts it?s the top leader of a troup of animals that gets most of the pussy. Or whatever gorillas call their gorilla poontang. It?s just a term, not a thing, so as long as we are clear on the context, we can know which set of traits we are describing.

Here are some alpha traits:

  1. The guy has slept around, and has experience with women. In the Roissy definition of alpha, the man is the guy who COULD sleep around, because women offer themselves to him, but he doesn?t necessarily follow through. Maybe. Not all alphas will have all alpha traits. This trait is alpha, as it dramatically changes the mans personality and approach to women and to life. The man not only can, but has fucked and fuck buddied and flinged and romanced with dozens and dozens of women. He?ll have been heart broken and broken hearts, been played and played the players. Many of the girls will have fallen in love, given him marriage proposals, and remained smitten for years after he left. There may be many ?oops? pregnancies in there, as the girls ?forgot? to be careful.

  2. Closely related to number 1. The man no longer thinks of the women?s feelings first. He is capable of causing heartbreak knowingly. He no longer feels duty bound to protect the womans feelings at the expense of his own interests.

  3. The bulk of all alpha attitudes flows out from number 2. The man has made a dramatic life shift in empasis, towards selfishness. Paradoxically this is attractive, and he starts to become conscious of this. Treat em mean to keep em keen is a phrase he?ll share with his buddies.

  4. Grows out from number 3. He becomes commanding, and gives direct orders to his women. ?Give me the remote.? He makes little allowance for what the girl wants to watch.

  5. He is confident that he can compete in the sexual marketplace. He may not be the best his girl has ever had, but he knows he?s up there in the top 10%, and will remain in that to 10% no matter who she dates in the future. Again, this trait is not common to all alphas, but it is an alpha trait. The sexual confidence translates directly into authoritative command over his women.

  6. He isn?t playing alpha games. If he wants closeness and sensitivity, he?ll have closeness and sensitivity. If it?s an intimate moment he won?t shy away from intimacy. He can say ?I love you? and mean it. However his form of poetry will have constraints in meter and rhyme, and he?ll have an embodied feeling for never saying ?I love you? more than 1/3rd as many times as the girl does. He?ll know that less is more when it comes to giving appreciation and validation. So when he gives it, it?s felt fresh by the girl as a real gift. He may compliment every good meal and call her a good girl, but the girl will know it?s appreciation backed by a true value judgment. Sometimes he?ll say the food sucks.

  7. Enjoyment and expertise in subjects within at least two of these categories:

    a) Sports. Two bonus points if the sport is a marital art, one bonus point if it?s dangerous.
    b) Music: collecting < playing < composing and playing publicly
    c) Something intellectually competitive and for which recognition is given, such as skill at writing, philosophical debate, or some business skills.
    d) Contemplative and meditative arts, especially when it gives some recognition within a community of peers, but also as it applies to the profundity of your presence.
    e) Social discourse, which could be through public speaking, acting, bartending, keeping a group at a table spellbound with your conversation while making them feel as participants, or chatting up strangers.
    f) Dance

  8. And then there are the structural alpha traits. Worldly command, where you have social, financial, political, and other real world powers. This could come from being a DJ or a religious orator who is up in front of crowd moving their emotions. Or it could come from the economic clout of being able to buy things and influence people. It is an elite level of control of the people and things in your environment.

  9. Another structural alpha trait is how physically attractive the man is. Height, facial handsomeness, style, grooming, and fitness come into play. As does plain muscular bulk ? especially lean bulk.

  10. Another structural alpha trait is penis size. Some take the attitude that this there is nothing that can be done about it anyway and so push it out of awareness. Others who desire more competitive equipment put in regular time and effort through jelqing to gain an inch. There is a sweet spot that varies for each woman. Someone remind me of the link to the penis size sweet spot chart ? it?s somewhere on penissizedebate.com. As I recall according to that chart the sweet spot begins somewhere around 7 inches and ends somewhere around 9, and very few men score a bullseye into the center of the sweet spot. Smaller tighter girls, like Asians, will have lower sweet spot numbers.

  11. Be from somewhere else. Girls find it exotic and intriguing if you are from out of town. It not only shows that you have some daring to travel and live elsewhere, but her gene pool craves fresh genes.

  12. Comic ability. People laugh at their bosses jokes much more than their underlings jokes. Making people laugh is both a sign of status and a cause of it.

  13. Pre-selection. If you have number 1, then you?ll get some pre-selection from ex girlfriends who remain peripherally in your life, but you can also get it from flirting with the waitress or from pictures on your cell phone and hard drive. If you are still dating then girls will ?accidentally? place hairs and hair clips and earrings and toothbrushes strategically throughout your pad. Don?t be in a hurry to hide all evidence.

  14. ? I?m going to come back to this post after the readers add some other traits. Hidden readers who haven?t commented yet, don?t be shy ? I know you?re out there.

Interesting take on this alpha conundrum. [/quote]

You see, this is where this whole thing stops seeming practical to me. For some timid, socially awkward guy to try to memorize this list (which I don’t necessarily agree with in it’s entirety) and then attempt mimic these behaviours is kind of ridiculous to me.

The guy is going to completely lack any freedom and spontaneity because he’s constantly going to be running in mental circles checking and rechecking his list to make sure he’s acting “alpha” enough. He’s going to overthink all of his social interactions, especially those with women. He can’t possibly “not care” (poor choice of words IMO) because in order for him to go to the trouble to seek out, memorize and then try to enact this list in the first place, he would need to care very much indeed. It’s a catch-22.

I actually prefer the Greek alphabet list in the Game thread because it seems more geared attempting to understand the dynamics of interpersonal hierarchies and where we might fit into them. Whether it’s entirely accurate is another question. It’s the apparent intent that I’m commenting on. If you are a “delta” (as the author theorizes that most guys are) maybe you would be happier and further ahead to develop yourself in those areas instead of struggling incessantly to be more artificially alpha. Round pegs, square holes and all.

I am still firmly of the opinion that discovering and developing your own competencies and interests, overcoming your weaknesses and insecurities, failing, succeeding and passionately and relentlessly pursuing your life’s goals and generally trying to bring more the the table each day is really The Game (the one that matters anyway). I believe that all of us would benefit from cultivating a healthy sense of detachment from external judgments and events. However I believe few, if any of us will get anywhere simply pretending not to care. A genuine sense of freedom, inquiry and adventure will allow us to find our natural place in the world and our relationships with others.

It is not necessarily inherently more desirable to be truly alpha, in the way that I think of it. It’s simply a way that some people are. It has it’s benefits but it has it’s price. That price is most heavily exacted in the form of responsibility and aloneness. Leaders have many supplicants and admirers, but few real friends. I would submit that if a delta guy learned to mimic alpha behaviour effectively enough that he actually found himself in an alpha role in professional and social situations he would likely not really enjoy it, deep down. He would be constantly in conflict with his inner nature. Command has its benefits, but it’s also a potentially terrible burden that is more easily and comfortably borne by one with the deeper psychological makeup to support it. No list from this or that blog will ever create that. If he’s just looking to get laid, well maybe. However, a guy who understands himself and his place in the world in a real, visceral way and acts spontaneously, in alignment with that will tend to get laid, with the added benefit of, well, understanding himself and his place in the world and being happy and stuff.

Is it possible to begin by adopting a set of personality traits that you deem to be desirable with the hope that acting that way will result in becoming that way? I guess maybe. If it works for some guys, great. It just seems bassackwards to me.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
This weekend, I’m going to help coach my oldest son’s basket ball game on Saturday, take my daughter to a friends birthday party and watch my other son play his first indoor soccer game. Sunday, I’ll probably go out to my elderly mom’s house and finish raking the leaves so that the city can haul them off. I might even take her out to lunch if I have time. Somewhere in there, I’ve got to make time for a couple gym workouts, acroyoga with my girlfriend, and some time at the range with my new Ruger 22/45.

Total omega.

<sadface.jpg>[/quote]

It sounds to me that you’re just a decent human being who is trying to improve the world one act at a time.

These guys are making things much more complicated than it needs to be. It all sounds great and makes the person sound just so intelligent but in the end it’s just a bunch of words. If you can’t hold a decent relationship, if you have a poor opinion than other people, and if it’s always about posturing then you’ve got problems and the results speak for themselves. If I had to guess Doc I would say that you’re in a healthy relationship and have a positive outlook on life and your relationships. I would also venture to guess that life is going pretty well for you. In the end isn’t that what really matters?

james

[quote]batman730 wrote:

Is it possible to begin by adopting a set of personality traits that you deem to be desirable with the hope that acting that way will result in becoming that way? I guess maybe. If it works for some guys, great. It just seems bassackwards to me.[/quote]

I don’t think so. This past summer I was able to observe what happens in the real world when someone tries to do this.

For some background, I work as a welder/fitter in a leading manufacture and repair facilities for barges, assigned to the repair division. The pace we keep and the work we do is absolutely brutal, and if you are not at least as hard as the work you will fail miserably and painfully.

Well, this summer we got a new kid just out of high/tech school. This was his first real job. Unfortunately for him, aside from barely having the ability to put metal to metal, he was not physically or psychologically capable in any way shape or form of hanging with the crew he just got thrown in with.

He understood that he was outclassed in virtually every measurable factor. The problem was that instead of acknowledging this and following the lead of his superiors OR simply moving on, he tried to emulate the behaviors which he thought would make him appear to be one of us. He would wear a wife beater tank top in an attempt to look stronger, which was endlessly amusing because no one wears those in that type of environment and his arms looked like pipe cleaners hanging off of a rib cage. He would talk shit to and about people whom had not accepted him as a peer and with whom he was not an equal. The mistakes he made in an attempt to appear to be one of the guys were endless.

Unfortunately, by trying to emulate the things he thought would make him more acceptable, he was actually driving nails into his own coffin every day. After about a month and a half he was finally and mercifully let go, which by that time he was not going to argue.

I’m pretty well convinced that there are certain traits and characteristics that people have or are capable of. They coalesce and become who that person is. Imitation may be the most sincere form of flattery, but when put to the test they will be exposed for who they truly are whether it is in a work environment, social setting, or personal relationship.

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

  1. Another structural alpha trait is penis size. Some take the attitude that this there is nothing that can be done about it anyway and so push it out of awareness. Others who desire more competitive equipment put in regular time and effort through jelqing to gain an inch. There is a sweet spot that varies for each woman. Someone remind me of the link to the penis size sweet spot chart ? it?s somewhere on penissizedebate.com. As I recall according to that chart the sweet spot begins somewhere around 7 inches and ends somewhere around 9, and very few men score a bullseye into the center of the sweet spot. Smaller tighter girls, like Asians, will have lower sweet spot numbers.

[/quote]

BUAHHAHAH Jelqing, how can that guy even put that in there lol.
[/quote]

Yeah, he is into all kinds of weird shit I have no clue about and find strange, but he has an interesting perspective.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

  1. Another structural alpha trait is penis size. Some take the attitude that this there is nothing that can be done about it anyway and so push it out of awareness. Others who desire more competitive equipment put in regular time and effort through jelqing to gain an inch. There is a sweet spot that varies for each woman. Someone remind me of the link to the penis size sweet spot chart ? it?s somewhere on penissizedebate.com. As I recall according to that chart the sweet spot begins somewhere around 7 inches and ends somewhere around 9, and very few men score a bullseye into the center of the sweet spot. Smaller tighter girls, like Asians, will have lower sweet spot numbers.

[/quote]

BUAHHAHAH Jelqing, how can that guy even put that in there lol.
[/quote]

Yeah, he is into all kinds of weird shit I have no clue about and find strange, but he has an interesting perspective.[/quote]

Like what?

who has time to read all this drivel, and who has time to write it?

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I am still firmly of the opinion that discovering and developing your own competencies and interests, overcoming your weaknesses and insecurities, failing, succeeding and passionately and relentlessly pursuing your life’s goals and generally trying to bring more the the table each day is really The Game (the one that matters anyway). I believe that all of us would benefit from cultivating a healthy sense of detachment from external judgments and events. However I believe few, if any of us will get anywhere simply pretending not to care. A genuine sense of freedom, inquiry and adventure will allow us to find our natural place in the world and our relationships with others.

However, a guy who understands himself and his place in the world in a real, visceral way and acts spontaneously, in alignment with that will tend to get laid, with the added benefit of, well, understanding himself and his place in the world and being happy and stuff.

[/quote]

I completely agree with the expressions above.

To me, it is both beautiful, wise and concrete ( inner solidity ), and struck a cord of truth.
Inner layer; Core truth.

I want to thank you for that. Very attractive to read and ponder over.
The greatest “Game” is conquering the self.

However, that is the ideal. The realist in me also sees the outer layers of truth that reveal a reality of human dysfunction. On the degrees of mental illness and psychological health, for example, I came across this post ( interaction between yourself and Orion on the Greek Alphabet classification on the Game thread ):

“Omegas â?? the losers. Even the Gamma males despise them. That which doesnâ??t kill them can make them stronger, but most never surmount the desperate need to belong caused by their social rejection. Omegas can be the most dangerous of men because the pain of their constant rejection renders the suffering of others completely meaningless in their eyes.”

Immediately upon reading that it came to me: That reminds me of dissociation and different degrees of Dissociative Identity Disorder.

I would not doubt that some of the characteristics of the Alpha - Beta also would co-relate to characteristics found in varying degrees of mental or psychological dysfunction.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

  1. Another structural alpha trait is penis size. Some take the attitude that this there is nothing that can be done about it anyway and so push it out of awareness. Others who desire more competitive equipment put in regular time and effort through jelqing to gain an inch. There is a sweet spot that varies for each woman. Someone remind me of the link to the penis size sweet spot chart ? it?s somewhere on penissizedebate.com. As I recall according to that chart the sweet spot begins somewhere around 7 inches and ends somewhere around 9, and very few men score a bullseye into the center of the sweet spot. Smaller tighter girls, like Asians, will have lower sweet spot numbers.

[/quote]

BUAHHAHAH Jelqing, how can that guy even put that in there lol.
[/quote]

Yeah, he is into all kinds of weird shit I have no clue about and find strange, but he has an interesting perspective.[/quote]

Like what?[/quote]

He meditates, does yoga, he even mentions the “hugging tree” position or some such, he lets his energy flow and massages his chakras (I think?).

I have no clue what he is doing there, but if it works for him?

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I am curious, wouldn’t most males due to their ego say they are alpha regardless of their actual social ranking?[/quote]

Absolutely, most people I know who describe themselves as alpha males are no where close.

These terms are so loose and bullshit it makes me laugh.

What we have here is armchair social scientists using outdated wolf terminology. Most of the conclusions and conjecture are absolutely spurious. [/quote]

Will you get it in your thick head that you are strawmanning all the time?

It is in the links I posted.

Everybody in this community acknowledges this, but for better or worse, this is what it was called initially and we wont change it so that you find something else to bitch about because that is not really your issue anyway, is it?

Zhan Zhuang training maybe ?
But it’s not that weird, and it definitely has its use.

[quote]kamui wrote:

Zhan Zhuang training maybe ?
But it’s not that weird, and it definitely has its use.[/quote]

That sounds familiar.

I am not saying that he is wrong, I am saying that I do not get it.

i won’t comment on chakras stuff and jelqing. I don’t (wanna) know anything about that.
but the tree posture thing is just :
-a kind of standing meditation
-a quite clever way to re-balance the relationships between tonic muscles and phasic muscles (to use an outdated kinesiologic terminology).

To Orion :

In which evopsych category would you put J-P Sartre ?

the guy was
-monstruously ugly
-perpetually self-deprecating
-resolutely non-monogamous and clearly deviant
-engaged with a dominant, quasi-androgynous, alpha-like woman
-constantly renewing the list of his young attractive mistresses (who were sometimes his gf’s mistresses too).

Sigma ?

[quote]kamui wrote:
To Orion :

In which evopsych category would you put J-P Sartre ?

the guy was
-monstruously ugly
-perpetually self-deprecating
-resolutely non-monogamous and clearly deviant
-engaged with a dominant, quasi-androgynous, alpha-like woman
-constantly renewing the list of his young attractive mistresses (who were sometimes his gf’s mistresses too).

Sigma ?

[/quote]

I am sorry, that is a rethorical question, yes?

Not so much rhetorical no.

I’m not sure he was manipulative enough, careless or “outcast” enough to be considered a Sigma.

Could have been an omega male who managed to become “successful by proxy”, using an alpha pussy to get beta pussies, so to speak.
Which lead me to think that sometimes it may be more interesting to categorize relationships rather than individuals.

[quote]kamui wrote:
Not so much rhetorical no.

I’m not sure he was manipulative enough, careless or “outcast” enough to be considered a Sigma.

Could have been an omega male who managed to become “successful by proxy”, using an alpha pussy to get beta pussies, so to speak.
Which lead me to think that sometimes it may be more interesting to categorize relationships rather than individuals.

[/quote]

The defining characteristic of an omega is that people reject him and maybe utter social cluelessness.

If he managed to pull mad poon while shitting all over social conventions, yeah, he is a sigma.

The thing is, those stickers describe social dynamics and status, not necessarily whether we like or admire those individuals.

So many military men.

Alpha, Beta, Omega, Sigma.

We should add new and fascinating terms such as;

HulkMega - He may be the biggest guy in the gym but he scares poon away faster than you can “put things down” Rogue Vampire as an example

Richa - Rich, single and a big dick, however he has no idea why women flock to him

Zyzz - Skinny beta turned Apex male turned Transexual bitch boy just before he died. Has many social ‘Alphas’ who are really just a bunch of beta suck ups basking in the flipstream of such Apex-ism. Careful betas! This guy is a social nuke and when he blows, he goes!

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I am still firmly of the opinion that discovering and developing your own competencies and interests, overcoming your weaknesses and insecurities, failing, succeeding and passionately and relentlessly pursuing your life’s goals and generally trying to bring more the the table each day is really The Game (the one that matters anyway). I believe that all of us would benefit from cultivating a healthy sense of detachment from external judgments and events. However I believe few, if any of us will get anywhere simply pretending not to care. A genuine sense of freedom, inquiry and adventure will allow us to find our natural place in the world and our relationships with others.

However, a guy who understands himself and his place in the world in a real, visceral way and acts spontaneously, in alignment with that will tend to get laid, with the added benefit of, well, understanding himself and his place in the world and being happy and stuff.

[/quote]

I completely agree with the expressions above.

To me, it is both beautiful, wise and concrete ( inner solidity ), and struck a cord of truth.
Inner layer; Core truth.

I want to thank you for that. Very attractive to read and ponder over.
The greatest “Game” is conquering the self.

However, that is the ideal. The realist in me also sees the outer layers of truth that reveal a reality of human dysfunction. On the degrees of mental illness and psychological health, for example, I came across this post ( interaction between yourself and Orion on the Greek Alphabet classification on the Game thread ):

“Omegas Ã?¢?? the losers. Even the Gamma males despise them. That which doesnÃ?¢??t kill them can make them stronger, but most never surmount the desperate need to belong caused by their social rejection. Omegas can be the most dangerous of men because the pain of their constant rejection renders the suffering of others completely meaningless in their eyes.”

Immediately upon reading that it came to me: That reminds me of dissociation and different degrees of Dissociative Identity Disorder.

I would not doubt that some of the characteristics of the Alpha - Beta also would co-relate to characteristics found in varying degrees of mental or psychological dysfunction.[/quote]

That’s very kind of you. If you got some small benefit from reading long-winded my post, I’m pleased to hear it.

Regarding realism when dealing with the multiple layers of human neurosis, I believe I take your point. Telling someone with some serious anxiety disorder or another to just stop worrying so much and try being awesome instead is really not very helpful.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Regarding realism when dealing with the multiple layers of human neurosis, I believe I take your point. Telling someone with some serious anxiety disorder or another to just stop worrying so much and try being awesome instead is really not very helpful.[/quote]

Sometimes it works though.

Sometimes it is as simple as “Imagine if you were the person you wanted to be. What would that person do in this same situation? Got it? Now do that.” Instead of relying on a culturally predefined role model, you rely on your imagination to construct your own personalized model, and then you try to live that life. You do it enough, it starts to feel natural, and you slowly transform into that person.

Definitely not something with a guaranteed success rate, but that approach seems to work far more often than not.