Socio-Sexual Hierarchy

Off Topic
21

[quote]orion wrote:
Anyhow, since anyone who is into self improvement obviously is a loser maybe I should adress those directly.

Dear loser, reject, doormat, socially clueless omega.

First, I am glad that you found this site, get off your ass and lift some goddamn weights. Even if you have resigned to a life of WOW and strangling your snake to internet porn you should do so anyway, at the very least you will have better stamina and a stronger grip.

Then, you might have come across comments that stomped all over the tiny little flame of hope that yes! you too! could learn to have at least some success with women, even though you are utterly out of shape, have the dress sense of an orc and the social skills of a class 4 hurricane.

I want you to know that what they say is not true. They are not better than you, they do not have supernatural abilities you could never aquire, they just got lucky and think they are the shit because of circumstances that in all likelyhood were entirely out of their control and there is no reason to take them seriously in any way shape or form.

In fact, you can spot an assclown from a mile away if he tries to appear bigger by putting you down and casually crushing your hopes and dreams.

Those are exactly the people you should never listen to, in fact, do the exact opposite of what they say you should and you will probably do alright.

No, I do not pretend what it is like to be in your shoes, because I basically had my act together but could get laid either unless I accidently stumbled into a pussy.

Once it clicked, I could.

Whereas “the game” might be just a game for most people, for you it is dead serious.

While for a lot of people it is about upgrading from 5s or 6s to 7-9s, for you, depending on how bad it really is, it might make the difference between 1 or 2s and 4-5s, with other words from women that no amount of alcohol can make desirable to women that are of healthy mind and body you might have a shot at a good life with.

A shot, no more, but that would mean that you are at the same level as most other men and would that not be something ?!?

But, dont sell yourself short, who knows how far you can really get if you lay down that pack of chips and honor your ancestors, that glorious bunch of killers, rapists, whoremongers and other men of ill repute who did not kick, claw, knive and slash their way through a few million years of hominid history just so that you could live a life of quiet desperation and die without ever having lived.

Make them proud by at least going under with your chin up, a curse on your lips and all cannons firing.

I suggest you start with David deAngelos “Deep Inner Game” which you can find in its entirety on Youtube.

If you need some encouragement, find the Roosh V forum, or SoSuave and you will find other guys who fail time and time again until they finally break through.

Godspeed.
[/quote]

Good post. I don’t know much about PUA stuff but if it’s in any way helping people get their fucking shit together then it can’t be all that bad.

Unless of course it’s really just about tricking some poor girl into fucking an omega in alpha clothing.

22

[quote]orion wrote:
…will practicaly spread their legs instantly if you can push her “omg,omg, sexworthy genes” buttons. [/quote]

OK, so let’s take a poll:

Women of T-Nation: after reading the various threads on how us guys can effectively mack your kind, how badly do alpha-Orion’s posts make you want to practically spread your legs instantly for him???

23

I do find the topic very interesting.

This guy gives some interesting descriptions as well:

24

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
…will practicaly spread their legs instantly if you can push her “omg,omg, sexworthy genes” buttons. [/quote]

OK, so let’s take a poll:

Women of T-Nation: after reading the various threads on how us guys can effectively mack your kind, how badly do alpha-Orion’s posts make you want to practically spread your legs instantly for him???[/quote]

How about: No.

:slight_smile:

25

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
…will practicaly spread their legs instantly if you can push her “omg,omg, sexworthy genes” buttons. [/quote]

OK, so let’s take a poll:

Women of T-Nation: after reading the various threads on how us guys can effectively mack your kind, how badly do alpha-Orion’s posts make you want to practically spread your legs instantly for him???[/quote]

How about: No.

:)[/quote]

We’re gonna go ahead and count this as a Yes, since it has already been established that women don’t actually know what they want.

26

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
Have you Orion, or anyone else here, read much of Mark at “PostMasculine” ?[/quote]

No?

Should we?[/quote]

Lol at speaking for the collective.

But no, I haven’t heard of him at all.[/quote]

It was an invition to plug the book.

Explaing why “we” should.

27

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
…will practicaly spread their legs instantly if you can push her “omg,omg, sexworthy genes” buttons. [/quote]

OK, so let’s take a poll:

Women of T-Nation: after reading the various threads on how us guys can effectively mack your kind, how badly do alpha-Orion’s posts make you want to practically spread your legs instantly for him???[/quote]

Doesnt matter what they say, they want me and they know it.

28

Reproductive Success

In primates, one of the most widely studied hierarchal groups, many studies have found a positive relationship between high rank and reproductive success. In baboons, higher-ranking males have the highest reproductive success due to increased female acquisition. Also, female baboons benefit from increased rank because high-ranking females produce more surviving offspring [6]

Bonnet macaques demonstrate another example of increased reproductive success from high rank. High-ranking males have more access to fertile females and consequently partake in most of the mating within the group, demonstrated by one population in which only three males were responsible for over 75% of mating. In this population, males often vary in their rank, and as they gain rank, they gain more time spent exclusively with fertile females; the opposite relationship is seen as males drop in rank.[7] In many primates, including bonnet macaques and rhesus monkeys, the offspring of high-ranking individuals have better fitness and thus an increased rate of survival. This is most likely a function of two factors. The first is that high-ranking males mate with high-ranking females. Assuming their high rank is correlated with higher fitness and fighting ability, this trait will be conferred to their offspring. The second factor is that higher-ranking parents probably provide better protection to their offspring and thus ensure higher survival rates.[6]

In rodents, the highest-ranking male frequently sires the most offspring. The same pattern is found in most carnivores, such as the dwarf mongoose. The dwarf mongoose lives in a social system with one dominant pair. The dominant female produces all or almost all of the offspring in the living group, and the dominant male has first access to her during her oestrus period. In red deer, the males who experienced winter dominance, resulting from greater access to preferred foraging sites, had higher ability to get and maintain larger harems during the mating season.[6]

In many monogamous bird species, the dominant pairs tend to get the best territories, which in turn promote offspring survival and adult health. In dunnocks, a species of birds that experiences many mating systems, sometimes individuals will form a group that will have one dominant male who achieves all of the mating in the group.[6]

29

REPRODUCTION
Macaca mulatta

Females reach puberty around age three while males are sexually mature by age four (Rawlins & Kessler 1986b). The ovarian cycle lasts for 28 days and is characterized by the darkening of the skin surrounding the anogenital region accompanied by menstruation (Catchpole & van Wagenen 1975). Estrus lasts for eight to 12 days, with the day of ovulation occurring at the midpoint of the estrus period. Females have increased sexual activity during ovulation, exhibiting the highest number of copulations seen during the ovarian cycle (Fooden 2000). Females reproduce from three until about 20 years of age (Rawlins & Kessler 1986b). Males reach puberty between three and 3.5 years of age but do not reach adult body size until about eight years old (Dixson & Nevison 1997; Bercovitch et al. 2003). Though males are capable of reproducing by age four, they are not reproductively successful until after age eight, or when they reach adult size. During this time between becoming sexually mature and when they begin to mate, young rhesus macaques are learning the social skills, including fighting ability, that will influence their success throughout their lives (Bercovitch et al. 2003). Both males and females reach sexual maturity sooner in captivity (Catchpole & van Wagenen 1975).

There is marked birth seasonality in rhesus macaques, with the majority of mating occurring in October through December and births coinciding with the end of the rainy season, or during the period of highest food abundance (Lindburg 1971; Qu et al. 1993). At Cayo Santiago, the mating season is much longer and begins in July and lasts until December (Chapais 1986). High-ranking males have more opportunities to mate with females than low-ranking males, but do not always sire a disproportionate number of infants. Lower-ranking males may have similar reproductive success compared to high-ranking males because they are new immigrants and are more attractive to females because of this (Berard 1999). From one breeding season to the next, females will drastically reduce the amount of mating they do with familiar males and over a period of three years, they try not to mate with any familiar males given the opportunity to mate with unfamiliar males (Bercovitch 1997; Berard 1999).

During the breeding season, females enter into consortships with one or more males. An individual female will spend longer amounts of time in contact with, grooming, and mating with these males. Males and female rhesus macaques are promiscuous breeders, mating multiple times with multiple mates (Lindburg 1971). Both males and females initiate these consort relationships and competition for access to mates is related to the high levels of aggression seen in rhesus macaque groups during this time of year. Gestation lasts 164 days in rhesus macaques and the interbirth interval is between 12 and 24 months (Fooden 2000). If a female does not have a successful pregnancy or her infant dies in the first year of life, she is more likely to give birth the following season than a female who successfully rears an infant (Seth 2000).

What is interesting is that the reproductive success of high ranking males is partially offset by new, usually lower ranking males that have just arrived.

Those monkey “moved to Japan” so to speak.

30

REPRODUCTION

Males reach adolescence between nine and 15 years of age and are capable of reproduction at 16 years or older. First estrus is seen in females at 10 years of age and is characterized by anogenital swelling. Menarche occurs a few months after the first swelling and continues on a cycle of about 36 days (Goodall 1986). There is a period of adolescent infertility in female chimpanzees that usually coincides with permanent emigration from their natal groups (Goodall 1986; Nishida et al. 2003). During the transition period, females still exhibit sexual swellings that may serve as a passport to gain males’ tolerance in their new social communities (Boesch & Boesch-Achermann 2000). Once established in their new communities, young females cease cycling for two to four years but continue to attract adult males and mate promiscuously. First parturition occurs, on average, between 13 and 14 years and the interbirth interval is between three and five years (Goodall 1986; Boesch & Boesch-Achermann 2000; Nishida et al. 2003). The lag time between menarche and first parturition may have adaptive significance for emigrating females. Having offspring before being accepted by the community could jeopardize both the mother and infant (Boesch & Boesch-Achermann 2000). Infanticide has been documented at Gombe, Mahale, and Kibale study sites and is often attributed to sexual selection theory; males kill infants unlikely to be their own, infanticide shortens interbirth intervals by inducing cycling in females that lose infants, and infanticidal males thus increase their chances of siring offspring. Infanticidal behavior by females has also been observed, though there is some question as to whether these were isolated incidences of pathological behavior, or if it could be related to dominance rank in females (Goodall 1986; Pusey et al. 1997).
Pan troglodytes
Photo: Frans de Waal

Mating occurs throughout the year and there is no evidence of a birth season, female chimpanzees do exhibit seasonality in the number of estrous females within a group (Wallis 1995; Boesch &Boesch-Achermann 2000; Wallis 2002). The number of estrous females is positively related to food abundance; because of the energetic requirements of ovulation and mating, female chimpanzees are more likely to come into estrus during times when food is readily available (Anderson et al. 2006). The majority of chimpanzee reproductive behavior is promiscuous, with females mating with multiple males opportunistically during estrus, though the majority of copulation occurs during the 10-day period of maximal tumescence (Goodall 1986). There are other types of reproductive strategies that are recognized as well. Restrictive mating, where the dominant male restricts other males from mating with estrous females in the community, consortship mating, where an adult pair leave the community for several days to weeks, and extra-group mating, where females leave their communities and mate furtively with males from nearby communities (Goodall 1986; Gagneux et al. 1999). Chimpanzee social and mating groups do not always overlap, given the variety of reproductive situations. This may have evolved because females have limited choice in mates after committing to a community, and the dominance hierarchy of males often dictates which males an estrous female will mate with. By having multiple strategies, females can expand the pool of males from which they choose while not losing the important support of the males in their communities (Gagneux et al. 1999). Having multiple strategies also maximizes the chances of males’ reproductive success; they are able to vary, throughout their lives, their mating strategies with depending on their position in the dominance hierarchy.

Interesting because this is our closest cousin.

Even more interesting because they start the more complex manouvers of our species.

Please note, that “consortship” is usually the behavior of low to middle rank males, not the alpha males, not in the link, but I can find that study too.

31

COMMUNICATION

Visual cues are important in primates, especially in the catarrhines, that lack a vomeronasal system. Bonobos have a remarkably expressive face and have a plethora of facial communications. Some of the predominant expressions include: “silent teeth baring,” “tense mouth,” “silent pout,” “duck face,” and “play face,” though these represent only a percentage of the facial expressions seen in bonobos (de Waal 1988). Similar to visual communication, vocal communication is also important in bonobo society. Bonobos have higher pitched voices than chimpanzees and are easily distinguished based solely on sound. The two species do, however, have some overlap in their vocal repertoire (de Waal 1988). Some of the vocal displays noted in bonobos include: “low hooting,” “high hooting,” “contest hooting,” “wieew-bark,” and “greeting grunts” (de Waal 1988). An interesting vocalization that is characteristic of play is the “panting laugh.” This jerky breathing that sounds like laughter and is always accompanied by a “play face” is usually heard during play and tickling (de Waal 1988).

While pan paniscus is important to understand human it is hard to learn from their sexual behavior because they fuck around so much.

That is not contradictory, because in their case it gets amzinglky complicated who fucks whom in what way for what reason.

But, note the importance of visual clues in catharrines without vomeronasal system.

Yes, we a catharrines, no we dont have one. At least not one an easily identifiable one.

In short, body language kind of matters.

32

The gorilla, nothing to see here really, except of course for the fact that for every male gorilla that effectively monopolizes a harem there necessarily must be several males that go without.

They have very small testicles, they do not need to worry about sperm competition.

Ah, living the dream.

33

So, both alphas and sigmas get women.

One actually plays into social hierarchy; one doesn’t.

It would seem that social hierarchy isn’t really what’s important. What’s important is confidence, dominance, and knowing/pursuing what you want.

If I’m following that right.

Where I’m not sure is the line between the arrogant jerk who gets rejected for going too far and, well, not getting rejected. Is it really as simple as “trying” versus “doing/being”?

34

[quote]LoRez wrote:
So, both alphas and sigmas get women.

One actually plays into social hierarchy; one doesn’t.

It would seem that social hierarchy isn’t really what’s important. What’s important is confidence, dominance, and knowing/pursuing what you want.

If I’m following that right.

Where I’m not sure is the line between the arrogant jerk who gets rejected for going too far and, well, not getting rejected. Is it really as simple as “trying” versus “doing/being”?[/quote]

You have to understand that the “jerk” does not care about being rejected.

If you wanted to emulate a jerk you cannot worry about overdoing it.

If you look at the “jerks” that are succesful with women, they are never intentionally cruel to women.

They are cruel sometimes, but because they do not care, not because they do care and want to see her hurt.

35

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
So, both alphas and sigmas get women.

One actually plays into social hierarchy; one doesn’t.

It would seem that social hierarchy isn’t really what’s important. What’s important is confidence, dominance, and knowing/pursuing what you want.

If I’m following that right.

Where I’m not sure is the line between the arrogant jerk who gets rejected for going too far and, well, not getting rejected. Is it really as simple as “trying” versus “doing/being”?[/quote]

You have to understand that the “jerk” does not care about being rejected.

If you wanted to emulate a jerk you cannot worry about overdoing it.

If you look at the “jerks” that are succesful with women, they are never intentionally cruel to women.

They are cruel sometimes, but because they do not care, not because they do care and want to see her hurt. [/quote]

So yes. By simply being a jerk, and not by trying to be a jerk.

Now, what if you actually kind of care, a little bit?

36

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
So, both alphas and sigmas get women.

One actually plays into social hierarchy; one doesn’t.

It would seem that social hierarchy isn’t really what’s important. What’s important is confidence, dominance, and knowing/pursuing what you want.

If I’m following that right.

Where I’m not sure is the line between the arrogant jerk who gets rejected for going too far and, well, not getting rejected. Is it really as simple as “trying” versus “doing/being”?[/quote]

You have to understand that the “jerk” does not care about being rejected.

If you wanted to emulate a jerk you cannot worry about overdoing it.

If you look at the “jerks” that are succesful with women, they are never intentionally cruel to women.

They are cruel sometimes, but because they do not care, not because they do care and want to see her hurt. [/quote]

So yes. By simply being a jerk, and not by trying to be a jerk.

Now, what if you actually kind of care, a little bit?[/quote]

Depends. do you care all the time or just when you see her?

You may have noticed that those girls insist that he is “different” when they are together because he actually does like her and he is genuinely nice to her, he just forgets her as soon as he left her place until something reminds him again.

37

Alpha characteristics

Posted by xsplat on October 11, 2012

There is no such ?thing? as a human alpha.

But a term was needed to encompass the set of traits that are attractive to women, and it is now convention to use the term alpha within the context of seduction to describe that set. In other contexts instead of talking about being a lady?s man, people use it to describe a man?s man. A virtuous leader of men. In other contexts it?s the top leader of a troup of animals that gets most of the pussy. Or whatever gorillas call their gorilla poontang. It?s just a term, not a thing, so as long as we are clear on the context, we can know which set of traits we are describing.

Here are some alpha traits:

  1. The guy has slept around, and has experience with women. In the Roissy definition of alpha, the man is the guy who COULD sleep around, because women offer themselves to him, but he doesn?t necessarily follow through. Maybe. Not all alphas will have all alpha traits. This trait is alpha, as it dramatically changes the mans personality and approach to women and to life. The man not only can, but has fucked and fuck buddied and flinged and romanced with dozens and dozens of women. He?ll have been heart broken and broken hearts, been played and played the players. Many of the girls will have fallen in love, given him marriage proposals, and remained smitten for years after he left. There may be many ?oops? pregnancies in there, as the girls ?forgot? to be careful.

  2. Closely related to number 1. The man no longer thinks of the women?s feelings first. He is capable of causing heartbreak knowingly. He no longer feels duty bound to protect the womans feelings at the expense of his own interests.

  3. The bulk of all alpha attitudes flows out from number 2. The man has made a dramatic life shift in empasis, towards selfishness. Paradoxically this is attractive, and he starts to become conscious of this. Treat em mean to keep em keen is a phrase he?ll share with his buddies.

  4. Grows out from number 3. He becomes commanding, and gives direct orders to his women. ?Give me the remote.? He makes little allowance for what the girl wants to watch.

  5. He is confident that he can compete in the sexual marketplace. He may not be the best his girl has ever had, but he knows he?s up there in the top 10%, and will remain in that to 10% no matter who she dates in the future. Again, this trait is not common to all alphas, but it is an alpha trait. The sexual confidence translates directly into authoritative command over his women.

  6. He isn?t playing alpha games. If he wants closeness and sensitivity, he?ll have closeness and sensitivity. If it?s an intimate moment he won?t shy away from intimacy. He can say ?I love you? and mean it. However his form of poetry will have constraints in meter and rhyme, and he?ll have an embodied feeling for never saying ?I love you? more than 1/3rd as many times as the girl does. He?ll know that less is more when it comes to giving appreciation and validation. So when he gives it, it?s felt fresh by the girl as a real gift. He may compliment every good meal and call her a good girl, but the girl will know it?s appreciation backed by a true value judgment. Sometimes he?ll say the food sucks.

  7. Enjoyment and expertise in subjects within at least two of these categories:

    a) Sports. Two bonus points if the sport is a marital art, one bonus point if it?s dangerous.
    b) Music: collecting < playing < composing and playing publicly
    c) Something intellectually competitive and for which recognition is given, such as skill at writing, philosophical debate, or some business skills.
    d) Contemplative and meditative arts, especially when it gives some recognition within a community of peers, but also as it applies to the profundity of your presence.
    e) Social discourse, which could be through public speaking, acting, bartending, keeping a group at a table spellbound with your conversation while making them feel as participants, or chatting up strangers.
    f) Dance

  8. And then there are the structural alpha traits. Worldly command, where you have social, financial, political, and other real world powers. This could come from being a DJ or a religious orator who is up in front of crowd moving their emotions. Or it could come from the economic clout of being able to buy things and influence people. It is an elite level of control of the people and things in your environment.

  9. Another structural alpha trait is how physically attractive the man is. Height, facial handsomeness, style, grooming, and fitness come into play. As does plain muscular bulk ? especially lean bulk.

  10. Another structural alpha trait is penis size. Some take the attitude that this there is nothing that can be done about it anyway and so push it out of awareness. Others who desire more competitive equipment put in regular time and effort through jelqing to gain an inch. There is a sweet spot that varies for each woman. Someone remind me of the link to the penis size sweet spot chart ? it?s somewhere on penissizedebate.com. As I recall according to that chart the sweet spot begins somewhere around 7 inches and ends somewhere around 9, and very few men score a bullseye into the center of the sweet spot. Smaller tighter girls, like Asians, will have lower sweet spot numbers.

  11. Be from somewhere else. Girls find it exotic and intriguing if you are from out of town. It not only shows that you have some daring to travel and live elsewhere, but her gene pool craves fresh genes.

  12. Comic ability. People laugh at their bosses jokes much more than their underlings jokes. Making people laugh is both a sign of status and a cause of it.

  13. Pre-selection. If you have number 1, then you?ll get some pre-selection from ex girlfriends who remain peripherally in your life, but you can also get it from flirting with the waitress or from pictures on your cell phone and hard drive. If you are still dating then girls will ?accidentally? place hairs and hair clips and earrings and toothbrushes strategically throughout your pad. Don?t be in a hurry to hide all evidence.

  14. ? I?m going to come back to this post after the readers add some other traits. Hidden readers who haven?t commented yet, don?t be shy ? I know you?re out there.

Interesting take on this alpha conundrum.

38

[quote]orion wrote:

  1. Another structural alpha trait is penis size. Some take the attitude that this there is nothing that can be done about it anyway and so push it out of awareness. Others who desire more competitive equipment put in regular time and effort through jelqing to gain an inch. There is a sweet spot that varies for each woman. Someone remind me of the link to the penis size sweet spot chart ? it?s somewhere on penissizedebate.com. As I recall according to that chart the sweet spot begins somewhere around 7 inches and ends somewhere around 9, and very few men score a bullseye into the center of the sweet spot. Smaller tighter girls, like Asians, will have lower sweet spot numbers.

[/quote]

BUAHHAHAH Jelqing, how can that guy even put that in there lol.

39

David Meech who coined that alpha term in wolves says it’s no longer valid.

40

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I am curious, wouldn’t most males due to their ego say they are alpha regardless of their actual social ranking?[/quote]

Absolutely, most people I know who describe themselves as alpha males are no where close.

These terms are so loose and bullshit it makes me laugh.

What we have here is armchair social scientists using outdated wolf terminology. Most of the conclusions and conjecture are absolutely spurious.