Yep, what we call poor is very rich in many parts of the world. We don’t know that kind of poverty. to put it in weightlifting terms our poor are benching 300 compared to many other parts of the world that lack capitalism.
[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
A long list of taxes.
Well my point was that I was under the impression that the rich in fact paid much more taxes. This list of taxes shows me that there are many taxes (which can spawn all sorts of other discussions), but I fail to see how that means the poor pay more taxes then the rich given that the rich pay a considerably larger portion of their income in income taxes. (and yes, I know taxes on spending unfairly affect the poor)
If you are wondering about my other point, it was mainly in reference to the fact that you don’t seem to appreciate the power of the free market.[/quote]
Wow, we were making the same point. Imagine that. Another tax that is not direct is the tax when you buy things or employ some oneâ??s service, For example when you employ a contractor, the contractorâ??s price is figured material, labor, taxes and fees
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Government needs a diet and it would help the poor in many ways more than the rich guy.
Which is the flip side to his argument. The poor are more oppressed by an overreaching government, by virtue of the fact they have less liquid resources and less ability to out-flank the system. Why should the private (rich) citizen be taxed even more to relieve the symptoms of the problem on the poor, when we should address the source of the problem instead? That’s somewhat like taking a tylenol for a migraine–it won’t relieve the symptoms nearly as well as the hard medicine.[/quote]
Poor little rich guy
[quote]tom63 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
If you don’t read it all, go to the ending then you may want to. Isn’t this amazing?
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer registration tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
This is a fantastic example of how we are all over taxed, not how the lower incomes are over taxed. It works this way, tax some and most don’t care. I don’t hunt, who gives a crap. I don’t have a car, who cares. I don’t fish, have restaurant or drill a well. I’m not fixing my home and on and on.
Government needs a diet and it would help the poor in many ways more than the rich guy.[/quote]
I think the Military needs a diet; we have to quit being the leader of the free world, even though we have more people incarcerated than any other nation per capita
[quote]tom63 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
Lazy and stupid people plague this country. They don’t want to crack a book and get a degree and we have to give visas out to Hindus and Chinese because of their laziness and stupidity. Many criminals in the inner city and other low life types are caught up in drug culture so that they can buy designer clothes instead of going to school or working hard. They want easy money!
Ever seen how people on welfare abuse the system here? Sit in an ER room here and you will see people on welfare going to the ER for a “headache”. Why? Because it’s “free”. Give something to people for free and they take 3!
I doubt you are lazy, but I have to question your intelligence. I personally think rude ignorant people plague this country. What they can not get with their intelligence they get with brash rudeness
Why would you question his intelligence? He is right a lot of people on welfare do abuse the system. My dad was a doctor and he would talk all the time about how people on government programs would come in for things like the flu, headaches, and hell even some would come in for shit like sprains.
There are some people that are lazy and dumb, but I do not feel the people at the bottom are the problem, it is the people in the middle that think they got where they are because of themselves. The majority of people are where they are because their parents taught them how to fend for them selves. If you had educated parents you had an advantage.If you were middle class you still may be so. If you were poor you are probably still poor
Why I question his intellect is because he really enjoyed stroking himself and inflating his worth by reflecting negatively on the poor. I personally thought his remarks were paper thin. Just my opinion.
It’s the people at the bottom, believe me. I’ve seen it enough. It is do to their lack of work ethic, morals, and character. See my above story. this is not a rare occurrance.
I met a real asshole of a doctor the day before my mother died, and am sure that is not the only asshole of a doctor there is. Yes poor people have some issues. So does everybody.
Some of the people that lack Character more than any one else I know are some of the wealthiest. I am not talking six figures a year; I am talking more than 7 figures a year. Two of the worst people I know are two of the wealthiest.
’ But they aren’t a drain on society. I’m not saying you bad because you are poor, but poor habits will make many people poor. It is within their control to not be poor. It is not fate they are poor, it is their own actions that make themselves poor.
I said people are poor because they are lazy and stupid. not that they are assholes, read what I said. Your doctor asshole buddy is probably intelligent and not lazy. He might be reprehensible, but I’m not paying for his housing, food, medical care or mileage so he can cheat welfare.
Not all bad character flaws make you a drain on society,. This is where you bleeding hearts make an error. you assume all character flaws are equal. I don’t care if he cheats on his wife. I don’t care if he is miserable to his staff, or treats waitresses badly. He is not a drain to society. He is contributing more than some welfare queen scamming mileage money.
I don’t care about people’s own personal crap, I just believe people should pay their own way, period.
[/quote]
People are poor because they have not been taught good habits, some people are content to be poor, some people figure out how to get out of it all by them selves.
The one wealthy asshole I know costs everybody that deals with them. He owns a lot of Apartment complexes, he fucks his residents, his employees and his vendors, and I think he would fuck his mother if the price was right.
I disagree; some one that fucks everybody costs everybody, money included
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
Lazy and stupid people plague this country. They don’t want to crack a book and get a degree and we have to give visas out to Hindus and Chinese because of their laziness and stupidity. Many criminals in the inner city and other low life types are caught up in drug culture so that they can buy designer clothes instead of going to school or working hard. They want easy money!
Ever seen how people on welfare abuse the system here? Sit in an ER room here and you will see people on welfare going to the ER for a “headache”. Why? Because it’s “free”. Give something to people for free and they take 3!
I doubt you are lazy, but I have to question your intelligence. I personally think rude ignorant people plague this country. What they can not get with their intelligence they get with brash rudeness
Why would you question his intelligence? He is right a lot of people on welfare do abuse the system. My dad was a doctor and he would talk all the time about how people on government programs would come in for things like the flu, headaches, and hell even some would come in for shit like sprains.
There are some people that are lazy and dumb, but I do not feel the people at the bottom are the problem, it is the people in the middle that think they got where they are because of themselves. The majority of people are where they are because their parents taught them how to fend for them selves. If you had educated parents you had an advantage.If you were middle class you still may be so. If you were poor you are probably still poor
Why I question his intellect is because he really enjoyed stroking himself and inflating his worth by reflecting negatively on the poor. I personally thought his remarks were paper thin. Just my opinion.
[/quote]
Actually if you really read my post you would notice that I used to be poor. I used to be so fucking poor back in the 90’s that I couldn’t even afford an air conditioner when I got done with the rent and food. Shit, in the summer, on the top floor apartment that I was living in at the time, my “alarmclock” was usually waking up because 1) it was too hot to sleep and 2)because my bed was soaked with sweat. This is not to mention that I lived above some heroin addicts and sometimes would have to “politely” ask them to move out of my way when they were passed out in the hallway of my apartment. And then there was where I worked… and even worse shit hole…boarding up crack houses for a slum lord. Get the picture yet?
As lacking as my life was in material things though, I always had fun with my friends, always found enough money to nurse a 40 and hang on a street corner in the big city looking for some kind of action: fight, pussy,etc.
Bottom line is that I was lazy! I will admit it!
One day… with no college education and tired of making 6 bucks an hour working as a fix it up/bodyguard/bilingual rent collector for a slum lord and seeing that the job pool for unskilled workers sucked, I decided to go to school.
Now I had to quit hanging out with the friends so much and go to school and study. I had to work and study. It consumed most of my time and if I was lucky I got to see my friends on the weekends for a short while.
After 6 years of this, I finally got a decent job. Some of my friends at the time did the same thing and now they are where I am at. The others? Lazy or stupid fucks who are still working shit jobs and don’t have health insurance or their health insurance probably sucks.
Ever work or live in the big city? Many “hip hoppers” are also TOO LAZY or TOO stupid to get real jobs and would rather sling cane to get their designer clothes.
I should NOT have my money taken from me and given to these lazy fucking pieces of shit.
[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
John S. wrote:
My dad came from a family where my Grandma was stay at home and my grandpa worked in a factory, they where upper poor-lower middle class. He worked hard at school and became a doctor.
My mom came from a white trash family down in Texas. She did well in school then met my dad became a stay at home mom. I have 4 siblings. After my dad died my mom took on a full time job and went to school and became a RN.
In this country if you really want to pull yourself up you can.
Exactly,
I am middle to upper middle class, not rich, but doing better than my parents who are now retired, but doing better than when I was a kid. Middle class you might say.
I here tales of woe every day. It usually amounts to stupid decisions in relationships, school work, working or lack of, taking drugs, etc. The poor are not on a higher moral plain. In fact I argue we don’t have poor anymore.
Standing in line for free food, texting on your phone. Defrauding welfare while dressing better than the workers in the welfare office. It’s a load of crap.
People like you and your parents are better. My kids nad me are better. Not by God’s grace, but by the willingness to take personal responsibility for our own lives.
I have to go back to physics, not everybody can be on top, and you need people below to build on. . If some one rises some one has to sink it is a law of nature. We can all build a better society collectively, but we can not all be top dog,
Fallacy, because the rising tide lifts all boats.
Consequently even the people who are considered to be poor in Europe or the US are rich compared to billions of people.
All those people could be better off without taking anything away from someone else.
I agree with you our Society is collectively better than most of the world, though it could be allot better, As a side note I think the social programs are what makes America better than the third world Nations, You have free markets alive and well in Viet Nam, India, China, The places where the free market can not survive is where there are no social programs (like a functioning GOV.)
Yes it could be a lot better.
The problem is that any kind of redistribution just leads to a suboptimal allocation of capital, i.e. the economy grows slower.
Any pain you may relieve now with other peoples money will be repaid later by someone else, plus interest.
I know the rich pay a higher percentage of Income tax, but if you add up all the fees, taxes, (sales, income, gas, cable, telephone, electric, environmental) the poor are paying a higher ( percentage ) than the wealthy, I know it is another thread but I would go for a flat tax if they did away with all other taxes and fees.
That was not the point.
The point was that the “poor” in the US are better off because of hundreds of years of capital accumulation.
If you interfere with that process by redistributing money capital grows slower so the “poor” of tomorrow will be far worse off than they would have been otherwise.
[/quote]
The poor are better off because we have public schools, public roads, we have, city water and sewer, we have thrash collection, we have utilities that are subsidized, we have food that is subsidized. America is a pretty good place to live.
[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
Lazy and stupid people plague this country. They don’t want to crack a book and get a degree and we have to give visas out to Hindus and Chinese because of their laziness and stupidity. Many criminals in the inner city and other low life types are caught up in drug culture so that they can buy designer clothes instead of going to school or working hard. They want easy money!
Ever seen how people on welfare abuse the system here? Sit in an ER room here and you will see people on welfare going to the ER for a “headache”. Why? Because it’s “free”. Give something to people for free and they take 3!
I doubt you are lazy, but I have to question your intelligence. I personally think rude ignorant people plague this country. What they can not get with their intelligence they get with brash rudeness
Why would you question his intelligence? He is right a lot of people on welfare do abuse the system. My dad was a doctor and he would talk all the time about how people on government programs would come in for things like the flu, headaches, and hell even some would come in for shit like sprains.
There are some people that are lazy and dumb, but I do not feel the people at the bottom are the problem, it is the people in the middle that think they got where they are because of themselves. The majority of people are where they are because their parents taught them how to fend for them selves. If you had educated parents you had an advantage.If you were middle class you still may be so. If you were poor you are probably still poor
Why I question his intellect is because he really enjoyed stroking himself and inflating his worth by reflecting negatively on the poor. I personally thought his remarks were paper thin. Just my opinion.
Actually if you really read my post you would notice that I used to be poor. I used to be so fucking poor back in the 90’s that I couldn’t even afford an air conditioner when I got done with the rent and food. Shit, in the summer, on the top floor apartment that I was living in at the time, my “alarmclock” was usually waking up because 1) it was too hot to sleep and 2)because my bed was soaked with sweat. This is not to mention that I lived above some heroin addicts and sometimes would have to “politely” ask them to move out of my way when they were passed out in the hallway of my apartment. And then there was where I worked… and even worse shit hole…boarding up crack houses for a slum lord. Get the picture yet?
As lacking as my life was in material things though, I always had fun with my friends, always found enough money to nurse a 40 and hang on a street corner in the big city looking for some kind of action: fight, pussy,etc.
Bottom line is that I was lazy! I will admit it!
One day… with no college education and tired of making 6 bucks an hour working as a fix it up/bodyguard/bilingual rent collector for a slum lord and seeing that the job pool for unskilled workers sucked, I decided to go to school.
Now I had to quit hanging out with the friends so much and go to school and study. I had to work and study. It consumed most of my time and if I was lucky I got to see my friends on the weekends for a short while.
After 6 years of this, I finally got a decent job. Some of my friends at the time did the same thing and now they are where I am at. The others? Lazy or stupid fucks who are still working shit jobs and don’t have health insurance or their health insurance probably sucks.
Ever work or live in the big city? Many “hip hoppers” are also TOO LAZY or TOO stupid to get real jobs and would rather sling cane to get their designer clothes.
I should NOT have my money taken from me and given to these lazy fucking pieces of shit.[/quote]
You sound like a working class guy, so am I. Do you know that the top earning one percent of the population made fifty percent of all the gains, financially, in the Bush Administration? And it was not because they worked any harder. It was because Bush changed RULES that were a huge benefit to the VERY wealthy
[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
Lazy and stupid people plague this country. They don’t want to crack a book and get a degree and we have to give visas out to Hindus and Chinese because of their laziness and stupidity. Many criminals in the inner city and other low life types are caught up in drug culture so that they can buy designer clothes instead of going to school or working hard. They want easy money!
Ever seen how people on welfare abuse the system here? Sit in an ER room here and you will see people on welfare going to the ER for a “headache”. Why? Because it’s “free”. Give something to people for free and they take 3!
I doubt you are lazy, but I have to question your intelligence. I personally think rude ignorant people plague this country. What they can not get with their intelligence they get with brash rudeness
Why would you question his intelligence? He is right a lot of people on welfare do abuse the system. My dad was a doctor and he would talk all the time about how people on government programs would come in for things like the flu, headaches, and hell even some would come in for shit like sprains.
There are some people that are lazy and dumb, but I do not feel the people at the bottom are the problem, it is the people in the middle that think they got where they are because of themselves. The majority of people are where they are because their parents taught them how to fend for them selves. If you had educated parents you had an advantage.If you were middle class you still may be so. If you were poor you are probably still poor
Why I question his intellect is because he really enjoyed stroking himself and inflating his worth by reflecting negatively on the poor. I personally thought his remarks were paper thin. Just my opinion.
Actually if you really read my post you would notice that I used to be poor. I used to be so fucking poor back in the 90’s that I couldn’t even afford an air conditioner when I got done with the rent and food. Shit, in the summer, on the top floor apartment that I was living in at the time, my “alarmclock” was usually waking up because 1) it was too hot to sleep and 2)because my bed was soaked with sweat. This is not to mention that I lived above some heroin addicts and sometimes would have to “politely” ask them to move out of my way when they were passed out in the hallway of my apartment. And then there was where I worked… and even worse shit hole…boarding up crack houses for a slum lord. Get the picture yet?
As lacking as my life was in material things though, I always had fun with my friends, always found enough money to nurse a 40 and hang on a street corner in the big city looking for some kind of action: fight, pussy,etc.
Bottom line is that I was lazy! I will admit it!
One day… with no college education and tired of making 6 bucks an hour working as a fix it up/bodyguard/bilingual rent collector for a slum lord and seeing that the job pool for unskilled workers sucked, I decided to go to school.
Now I had to quit hanging out with the friends so much and go to school and study. I had to work and study. It consumed most of my time and if I was lucky I got to see my friends on the weekends for a short while.
After 6 years of this, I finally got a decent job. Some of my friends at the time did the same thing and now they are where I am at. The others? Lazy or stupid fucks who are still working shit jobs and don’t have health insurance or their health insurance probably sucks.
Ever work or live in the big city? Many “hip hoppers” are also TOO LAZY or TOO stupid to get real jobs and would rather sling cane to get their designer clothes.
I should NOT have my money taken from me and given to these lazy fucking pieces of shit.[/quote]
And if you had a major health problem during those six years you would have been fucked. You got lucky.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
Lazy and stupid people plague this country. They don’t want to crack a book and get a degree and we have to give visas out to Hindus and Chinese because of their laziness and stupidity. Many criminals in the inner city and other low life types are caught up in drug culture so that they can buy designer clothes instead of going to school or working hard. They want easy money!
Ever seen how people on welfare abuse the system here? Sit in an ER room here and you will see people on welfare going to the ER for a “headache”. Why? Because it’s “free”. Give something to people for free and they take 3!
I doubt you are lazy, but I have to question your intelligence. I personally think rude ignorant people plague this country. What they can not get with their intelligence they get with brash rudeness
Why would you question his intelligence? He is right a lot of people on welfare do abuse the system. My dad was a doctor and he would talk all the time about how people on government programs would come in for things like the flu, headaches, and hell even some would come in for shit like sprains.
There are some people that are lazy and dumb, but I do not feel the people at the bottom are the problem, it is the people in the middle that think they got where they are because of themselves. The majority of people are where they are because their parents taught them how to fend for them selves. If you had educated parents you had an advantage.If you were middle class you still may be so. If you were poor you are probably still poor
Why I question his intellect is because he really enjoyed stroking himself and inflating his worth by reflecting negatively on the poor. I personally thought his remarks were paper thin. Just my opinion.
Actually if you really read my post you would notice that I used to be poor. I used to be so fucking poor back in the 90’s that I couldn’t even afford an air conditioner when I got done with the rent and food. Shit, in the summer, on the top floor apartment that I was living in at the time, my “alarmclock” was usually waking up because 1) it was too hot to sleep and 2)because my bed was soaked with sweat. This is not to mention that I lived above some heroin addicts and sometimes would have to “politely” ask them to move out of my way when they were passed out in the hallway of my apartment. And then there was where I worked… and even worse shit hole…boarding up crack houses for a slum lord. Get the picture yet?
As lacking as my life was in material things though, I always had fun with my friends, always found enough money to nurse a 40 and hang on a street corner in the big city looking for some kind of action: fight, pussy,etc.
Bottom line is that I was lazy! I will admit it!
One day… with no college education and tired of making 6 bucks an hour working as a fix it up/bodyguard/bilingual rent collector for a slum lord and seeing that the job pool for unskilled workers sucked, I decided to go to school.
Now I had to quit hanging out with the friends so much and go to school and study. I had to work and study. It consumed most of my time and if I was lucky I got to see my friends on the weekends for a short while.
After 6 years of this, I finally got a decent job. Some of my friends at the time did the same thing and now they are where I am at. The others? Lazy or stupid fucks who are still working shit jobs and don’t have health insurance or their health insurance probably sucks.
Ever work or live in the big city? Many “hip hoppers” are also TOO LAZY or TOO stupid to get real jobs and would rather sling cane to get their designer clothes.
I should NOT have my money taken from me and given to these lazy fucking pieces of shit.
You sound like a working class guy, so am I. Do you know that the top earning one percent of the population made fifty percent of all the gains, financially, in the Bush Administration? And it was not because they worked any harder. It was because Bush changed RULES that were a huge benefit to the VERY wealthy
[/quote]
Rich guys will always make money, get over it. You can’t make poor guys rich, they have to do it on their own. Usually by being smart and hard working, but if they were those things, they wouldn’t be poor in the first place.
[quote]orion wrote:
The point was that the “poor” in the US are better off because of hundreds of years of capital accumulation. [/quote]
Very true[quote]
If you interfere with that process by redistributing money capital grows slower so the “poor” of tomorrow will be far worse off than they would have been otherwise.
[/quote]
It’s a great theory, and mostly true. But I wonder, as a card-carrying libertarian, are there any investments that are worth taxation in your world? Universal primary education? Roads?
Also, from a libertarian perspective, why is it that China and Viet Nam are progressing so rapidly with such a heavy government hand and with such slow deregulation whereas Russia and other did so poorly with “shock therapy?”
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
The point was that the “poor” in the US are better off because of hundreds of years of capital accumulation.
Very true
If you interfere with that process by redistributing money capital grows slower so the “poor” of tomorrow will be far worse off than they would have been otherwise.
It’s a great theory, and mostly true. But I wonder, as a card-carrying libertarian, are there any investments that are worth taxation in your world? Universal primary education? Roads?
Also, from a libertarian perspective, why is it that China and Viet Nam are progressing so rapidly with such a heavy government hand and with such slow deregulation whereas Russia and other did so poorly with “shock therapy?” [/quote]
Political and Corporate corruption is a huge problem in Russia, making people wary of investing there.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The poor are better off because we have public schools, public roads, we have, city water and sewer, we have thrash collection, we have utilities that are subsidized, we have food that is subsidized. America is a pretty good place to live. [/quote]
For now.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
You sound like a working class guy, so am I. Do you know that the top earning one percent of the population made fifty percent of all the gains, financially, in the Bush Administration? And it was not because they worked any harder. It was because Bush changed RULES that were a huge benefit to the VERY wealthy
[/quote]
Exactly. You think its any different with Obama? When governmetns get involved in the economy incentive shifts from pleasing customers to being in bed with government. You need only look at Chris Dodd’s super awesome mortgage to see that.
Peter Lynch said invest in companies that an idiot can run, because eventually an idiot will run it. Now apply this to government. Build a government you would want an asshole running b/c eventually an asshole will run it.
[quote]Unaware wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
The point was that the “poor” in the US are better off because of hundreds of years of capital accumulation.
Very true
If you interfere with that process by redistributing money capital grows slower so the “poor” of tomorrow will be far worse off than they would have been otherwise.
It’s a great theory, and mostly true. But I wonder, as a card-carrying libertarian, are there any investments that are worth taxation in your world? Universal primary education? Roads?
Also, from a libertarian perspective, why is it that China and Viet Nam are progressing so rapidly with such a heavy government hand and with such slow deregulation whereas Russia and other did so poorly with “shock therapy?”
Political and Corporate corruption is a huge problem in Russia, making people wary of investing there.[/quote]
hmmmmm… you’re not Orion. Should I bite? Okay, I’ll give it a shot. Two questions,
- Why did you only (try to) answer one of questions?
- Why, do you think, the problem is so great in Russia and not so much in China or Viet Nam?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
John S. wrote:
My dad came from a family where my Grandma was stay at home and my grandpa worked in a factory, they where upper poor-lower middle class. He worked hard at school and became a doctor.
My mom came from a white trash family down in Texas. She did well in school then met my dad became a stay at home mom. I have 4 siblings. After my dad died my mom took on a full time job and went to school and became a RN.
In this country if you really want to pull yourself up you can.
Exactly,
I am middle to upper middle class, not rich, but doing better than my parents who are now retired, but doing better than when I was a kid. Middle class you might say.
I here tales of woe every day. It usually amounts to stupid decisions in relationships, school work, working or lack of, taking drugs, etc. The poor are not on a higher moral plain. In fact I argue we don’t have poor anymore.
Standing in line for free food, texting on your phone. Defrauding welfare while dressing better than the workers in the welfare office. It’s a load of crap.
People like you and your parents are better. My kids nad me are better. Not by God’s grace, but by the willingness to take personal responsibility for our own lives.
I have to go back to physics, not everybody can be on top, and you need people below to build on. . If some one rises some one has to sink it is a law of nature. We can all build a better society collectively, but we can not all be top dog,
Fallacy, because the rising tide lifts all boats.
Consequently even the people who are considered to be poor in Europe or the US are rich compared to billions of people.
All those people could be better off without taking anything away from someone else.
I agree with you our Society is collectively better than most of the world, though it could be allot better, As a side note I think the social programs are what makes America better than the third world Nations, You have free markets alive and well in Viet Nam, India, China, The places where the free market can not survive is where there are no social programs (like a functioning GOV.)
Yes it could be a lot better.
The problem is that any kind of redistribution just leads to a suboptimal allocation of capital, i.e. the economy grows slower.
Any pain you may relieve now with other peoples money will be repaid later by someone else, plus interest.
I know the rich pay a higher percentage of Income tax, but if you add up all the fees, taxes, (sales, income, gas, cable, telephone, electric, environmental) the poor are paying a higher ( percentage ) than the wealthy, I know it is another thread but I would go for a flat tax if they did away with all other taxes and fees.
That was not the point.
The point was that the “poor” in the US are better off because of hundreds of years of capital accumulation.
If you interfere with that process by redistributing money capital grows slower so the “poor” of tomorrow will be far worse off than they would have been otherwise.
The poor are better off because we have public schools, public roads, we have, city water and sewer, we have thrash collection, we have utilities that are subsidized, we have food that is subsidized. America is a pretty good place to live. [/quote]
Nonsense.
You do not get to eat apples because government gives them to you but because someone planted the in the first place.
The problem is that less people will plant trees when they know that the fruits of their labor (sic!) will be taken away.
So yes, for now everyone gets an apple.
Tomorrow though they could have gotten two or three or even oranges and prunes.
Unfortunately they will not have that because noone planted those trees because tree planters do not wish to work for free.
Years from now people will still get apples from the government and they will thank it for it, not knowing what would have been, would they not constantly try to steal from each other.
If economic growth is exponential and redistribution slows it down just a bit that the inevitable conclusion.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
You sound like a working class guy, so am I. Do you know that the top earning one percent of the population made fifty percent of all the gains, financially, in the Bush Administration? And it was not because they worked any harder. It was because Bush changed RULES that were a huge benefit to the VERY wealthy
[/quote]
Do you even know that the Bush tax cuts resulted in more revenue for the state?
[quote]
hmmmmm… you’re not Orion. Should I bite? Okay, I’ll give it a shot. Two questions,
- Why did you only (try to) answer one of questions?
- Why, do you think, the problem is so great in Russia and not so much in China or Viet Nam? [/quote]
The first question was a question to Orion’s personal perspective. The second question dealt with facts. If you want to know my personal opinion I can certainly give that to you.
I am not intimately familiar with Russian culture so I can not explain to you why it is so, I can only tell you that it is so. Take for example the Russian government seizing the Shell’s oil fields after shell invested all that money in the project. That doesn’t exactly inspire more investment in the country.
The issue is obviously more complex than a single answer, but this is a large contributing factor.
The collapse of the government probably had a good deal to do with it too.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
The point was that the “poor” in the US are better off because of hundreds of years of capital accumulation.
Very true
If you interfere with that process by redistributing money capital grows slower so the “poor” of tomorrow will be far worse off than they would have been otherwise.
It’s a great theory, and mostly true. But I wonder, as a card-carrying libertarian, are there any investments that are worth taxation in your world? Universal primary education? Roads?
Also, from a libertarian perspective, why is it that China and Viet Nam are progressing so rapidly with such a heavy government hand and with such slow deregulation whereas Russia and other did so poorly with “shock therapy?” [/quote]
I think that there are some investments that call for taxation but not that many because most of f.e infrastructure financing could be done with user fees which would have the advantage of no unwanted cross subsidies.
Why pay for a highway you never use?
Elementary school, no, but just because in England before mandatory schooling 96% of all children went to school. That beats what we have now.
Then, what is a heavy government hand? I think a market can suffer a lot of abuse if it is at least consistent. If in the case of Russia you can be thrown into jail and lose everything you got merely because Putin says so that is far worse than some stupid rules.
All in all I would be happy if government just got out of the redistribution business. Then they would be somewhere around 10% GDP and could probably finance themselves through indirect taxes.
[quote]Unaware wrote:
hmmmmm… you’re not Orion. Should I bite? Okay, I’ll give it a shot. Two questions,
- Why did you only (try to) answer one of questions?
- Why, do you think, the problem is so great in Russia and not so much in China or Viet Nam?
The first question was a question to Orion’s personal perspective. The second question dealt with facts. If you want to know my personal opinion I can certainly give that to you.
I am not intimately familiar with Russian culture so I can not explain to you why it is so, I can only tell you that it is so. Take for example the Russian government seizing the Shell’s oil fields after shell invested all that money in the project. That doesn’t exactly inspire more investment in the country.
The issue is obviously more complex than a single answer, but this is a large contributing factor.
The collapse of the government probably had a good deal to do with it too. [/quote]
Fair enough, you didn’t see the point I was getting at. A lot of people argue that it was government involvement specifically that allowed for the huge GDP growth rates in Viet Nam and China, and it was Russia moving “too quickly” to capitalism (without the necessary institutions in place) that caused a lot of the pain.
In short, I was calling into question the libertarian belief that less government=better government in policy. (I still think the theory is fine overall.)