[quote]dirtbag wrote:
This is why they should not ban AAS but find better ways of testing. This was a race to find the smoking gun as to why this woman’s hormones were the way they were. In other words the hunt for the smoking needle. And the confirmation she was a cheat. So all the other cry baby countries can feel better about themselves.
I think that before all races blood tests are ran by a body governed by the sport itself. If your levels fall in a range you should not be in then you ass gets pulled before the race. This way she would have never made it to this level. And a PRIVATE investigation would have reveled the hormone in balance. You would find it common for people to be pulled last min for levels being slightly off the norm. And her issues with internal testes would be secret and she could have them removed. And then she could race again after passing blood testing.
No harm no foul.[/quote]
The point is that if you are born a certain way, you should be able to compete like that. No one told Arnold he couldn’t compete because his body was shaped a certain way.
[quote]TheBigV wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
This is why they should not ban AAS but find better ways of testing. This was a race to find the smoking gun as to why this woman’s hormones were the way they were. In other words the hunt for the smoking needle. And the confirmation she was a cheat. So all the other cry baby countries can feel better about themselves.
I think that before all races blood tests are ran by a body governed by the sport itself. If your levels fall in a range you should not be in then you ass gets pulled before the race. This way she would have never made it to this level. And a PRIVATE investigation would have reveled the hormone in balance. You would find it common for people to be pulled last min for levels being slightly off the norm. And her issues with internal testes would be secret and she could have them removed. And then she could race again after passing blood testing.
No harm no foul.
The point is that if you are born a certain way, you should be able to compete like that. No one told Arnold he couldn’t compete because his body was shaped a certain way.[/quote]
No one is saying she can’t compete.
But if shes XXY, shes not exactly a female, so who does she compete with?
[quote]Stuntman Mike wrote:
TheBigV wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
This is why they should not ban AAS but find better ways of testing. This was a race to find the smoking gun as to why this woman’s hormones were the way they were. In other words the hunt for the smoking needle. And the confirmation she was a cheat. So all the other cry baby countries can feel better about themselves.
I think that before all races blood tests are ran by a body governed by the sport itself. If your levels fall in a range you should not be in then you ass gets pulled before the race. This way she would have never made it to this level. And a PRIVATE investigation would have reveled the hormone in balance. You would find it common for people to be pulled last min for levels being slightly off the norm. And her issues with internal testes would be secret and she could have them removed. And then she could race again after passing blood testing.
No harm no foul.
The point is that if you are born a certain way, you should be able to compete like that. No one told Arnold he couldn’t compete because his body was shaped a certain way.
No one is saying she can’t compete.
But if shes XXY, shes not exactly a female, so who does she compete with?[/quote]
[quote]almostflipped wrote:
"Basically, she’s most likely XXY, but they needed to do more tests than simple swab and chromosomal analysis. "
It’s possible the Caster is XXY, known as Klinefelter syndrome, but more likely to be XY “female” due to androgen insensitivity. Typically a Klinefelter would present as a male, including male genitalia; however said genitalia would be smaller than normal. Most, though not all, would be entirely indistinguishable from another male short of specific testing. Some variants may be more distinguishable by developing pseudo-breasts. Androgen insensitivity would explain pretty much every variation we see in Caster though. There is a wide variation of outcomes from androgen insensitivity (and by insensitivity, it seems to be in reference to sexual development more than muscle, etc…) however Caster fits in nicely with the supposed reports of blind genitalia, testes in the abdomen, and muscle/strength development of a male.
As far as competition, I had heard that WADA defines male/female by XY/XX differentiation except in the instance of a declared sex change and appropriate hormone therapy to conform to the excepted norms of the given gender. Haven’t checked this, it may be wrong.
Really though, both the ASA and the IAAF should be ashamed that this has turned into the public spectacle it has. Particularly the ASA as the testing process started well before Berlin and they had results demonstrating extreme testosterone profiles prior to the finals. They ought to have protected Caster by claiming an injury before the race and concluding the testing quietly. Caster is an unforetunate victim in this whole thing.[/quote]
Nice post…I agree, I highly doubt that she has Klinefelter’s, AIS is a strong possibility but only partial AIS, some of her androgen receptors have to be at least partially functional for her to have such masculine features. If it was complete AIS she would look totally female, without question. She could also theoretically be a XX male that had the SRY gene translocated onto the X. I too am very interested to see the final outcome of the chromosomal analysis.
Sadly, she will have to have surgery to remove her internal testes. The risk of cancer is far too great in cases like this.
All this makes me wonder if some day, people will divided into groups of competition, not decided by gender, but by the levels of androgynous hormones our bodies naturally produce…
I feel sorry for the poor girl, and angry as hell that it was made public before was dealt with properly. Somebody, somewhere, has fucked up royally and deserves to be publicly identified so they can suffer the condemnation of every single drug-tested competitive athlete. Athletes test results are supposed to be private and COMPLETELY confidential until everything is confirmed and a decision made.
This is a fucking crucification; She hasn’t tried to cheat, may have only found out through the media, and as the final insult she is prohibited from discussing her results until they’re finalised by the very same rules that gutless individual who leaked her results flouted.
They’ve let Caster down, and undermined athletes faith in a system they need to rely on.
The girl is facing the prospect of losing a world record, her athletic career and never having children…and having to do so silently. I understand you have to do whats fair to her, and fair to the competitors, but that’s a decision they haven’t even made yet. I just want someone watching the watchmen, because right now they’ve thrown someone to the wolves.
[quote]Doc L wrote:
AIS is a strong possibility but only partial AIS, some of her androgen receptors have to be at least partially functional for her to have such masculine features. If it was complete AIS she would look totally female, without question.
[/quote]
It was her biceps that made me doubt. I know men who do not possess biceps as full and as shapely as hers.
if she loses the testicles, does she get to keep them?
Her biceps are AMAZING both in shape and fullness for an 18 year old.
If I were her mother I would build her up by saying she is a mutant and as an X-Men gene and should be proud of her extra powers but I gather they didn’t grow up with Marvel comics in her culture.
You know what I mean, turn this negative situation into a positive and make her see the world we live in is cartoonish in nature and ‘average’ people are motivated by fear and shame and human nature is ‘comic’ ( unreal/imperfect ) at their origin.
Perfection is what is normal and no one, NO ONE is perfect - Just different levels of mutation.
I wish people would drop this illusion of ‘normality’. We are all deficient otherwise power would be sustainable and aging would be stopped. Self renewal is encoded in our DNA and for some unknown reason we fail to utilize this capacity to self regenerate. Normal is to renew one’s organism daily. Anti aging is in our genes.
Which one of us has achieved that?
And we think ourselves so evolved, don’t we?
Well done everybody, aren’t we so great.
Who looks more human now; the ‘normal’ advanced, superior people who run the circus or the anomaly being used as a spectacle to sell tickets for the show?
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
And they actually publicize it? not considering the psychological trauma this person is facing with this news…people are so fucking low
the chance to sell a story, i fucking hate money…more than money, i hate people who love it[/quote]
Without money, how do you propose to exchange goods and services? At gunpoint? Money makes civilisation possible.
[quote]jCaesar88 wrote:
jCaesar88 wrote:
Why the fuck do people care about this shit?
[/quote]
What an eloquent post.
Because, (at least to my knowledge) this is the first time this sort of thing has happened in The Olympics. Not to mention the other gender issues that come into play.
Many people find this interesting. You don’t and that’s fine.
[quote]imhungry wrote:
jCaesar88 wrote:
jCaesar88 wrote:
Why the fuck do people care about this shit?
What an eloquent post.
Because, (at least to my knowledge) this is the first time this sort of thing has happened in The Olympics. Not to mention the other gender issues that come into play.
Many people find this interesting. You don’t and that’s fine.[/quote]
Fair enough. I just don’t tend to concern myself with stuff that doesn’t affect me.
On top of that, people that don’t fit the male or female category are nothing new to me, so its nothing exciting to me personally
Does anyone know if her doctors detected this at birth? There have been cases of botched circumcisions(read: cutting of the boys penis) where the doctors suggested to the parents to raise the boy as a female, and the parents agreed, so the boy was given some ‘renovation’ and large doses of female hormones.
There was a famous case of someone named “Brenda” that the journalists really loved because she(former he) was raised as a female and then showed almost all of the traits of females, showing them that gender roles are largely a ‘sociological construction’(sadly they didn’t stress enough that Brenda was not just given surgery, but also given intensive hormone therapy).
Anyhow, John Hopkins later investigated the story to only find out that journalists and the original report from whatever university was a scam, that Brenda had told his parents that he thought he was meant to be a boy, and got a manufactured penis and is now a married factory worker.
I may have left out a detail or two, but that’ the gist. Pretty interesting story from the book Feminism: Taking Sex Differences Seriously.
EDIT : So is this a possible scenario or no?(pretty ignorant when it comes to science here)
This really should be left up to the leagues to decide. I also don’t understand why they don’t test people more discreetly prior to competitions.
She may have honestly not known, but I personally wouldn’t consider her a woman. I mean it’s one thing for a woman with ovaries to be producing higher than average testosterone, but come on, this one has internal testes, no ovaries.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Ct. Rockula wrote:
And they actually publicize it? not considering the psychological trauma this person is facing with this news…people are so fucking low
the chance to sell a story, i fucking hate money…more than money, i hate people who love it
Without money, how do you propose to exchange goods and services? At gunpoint? Money makes civilisation possible.
[/quote]
One solution would be to consider females as a special class where only xx chromosomes and typical female organs compete everyone else competes against men.
In the ancient OlympicS everyone male and female competed together.
[quote]Raided wrote:
One solution would be to consider females as a special class where only xx chromosomes and typical female organs compete everyone else competes against men.
In the ancient OlympicS everyone male and female competed together.
[/quote]
[quote]imhungry wrote:
Grneyes wrote:
on edge wrote:
I assume she passed the basic gender test because it’s pretty standard and easy. By “passing” I mean she is chromosomally XX. If that’s the case, and by some hormonal fluke during development her ovaries formed into testes, I don’t see how they can prevent her from competing as a woman. She is chromosomally female and just has the “lucky” advantage of having way more testosterone.
I’m very interested in hearing if she is XX, XY or XXY.
I thinks she would be XXY, the Y giving her the testes and extra testosterone. The genetic default is female. If a person is XO, meaning they did not get a chromosome from their father, they are considered female. They even look female and mature as females, with obvious genetic faults, but they are still considered female.
This is a very sexy post.[/quote]
Hungry, I think you have something in common with Castor. In addition to your descended testicles, I think you have a few internal as well. If you find that post to be sexy you must be so overloaded with testosterone that anything is a turn on to you. No wonder your SAMA post count. You must be quite a sight when a breeze blows up your shorts.
She may have honestly not known, but I personally wouldn’t consider her a woman. I mean it’s one thing for a woman with ovaries to be producing higher than average testosterone, but come on, this one has internal testes, no ovaries.[/quote]
Then what is she? She has a vagina, not a penis. Plenty of women out there don’t have ovaries for one reason or another, they still are considered women.
[quote]on edge wrote:
imhungry wrote:
Grneyes wrote:
on edge wrote:
I assume she passed the basic gender test because it’s pretty standard and easy. By “passing” I mean she is chromosomally XX. If that’s the case, and by some hormonal fluke during development her ovaries formed into testes, I don’t see how they can prevent her from competing as a woman. She is chromosomally female and just has the “lucky” advantage of having way more testosterone.
I’m very interested in hearing if she is XX, XY or XXY.
I thinks she would be XXY, the Y giving her the testes and extra testosterone. The genetic default is female. If a person is XO, meaning they did not get a chromosome from their father, they are considered female. They even look female and mature as females, with obvious genetic faults, but they are still considered female.
This is a very sexy post.
Hungry, I think you have something in common with Castor. In addition to your descended testicles, I think you have a few internal as well. If you find that post to be sexy you must be so overloaded with testosterone that anything is a turn on to you. No wonder your SAMA post count. You must be quite a sight when a breeze blows up your shorts.[/quote]
Are you flirting with me?
Hey, I think intelligence is sexy. And, most of my post count if from posting stupid cat pics…thank you very much.