Ed did what he responded best to, which most guys never figure out. How many guys do cut and paste workout programs, instead of figuring out what works for the individual? Ed is thick like a loader tire, and he didn’t worry about putting that weight where it would win him a posedown. So, sure, you will get added mass as a byproduct of lifting heavy, but that doesn’t work the same as tailoring to your goal. Everybody wants 1+1 to equal 2. But it’s just not as simple as get bigger to get stronger, or get stronger to get bigger. At least, not as simple as in the way CICO doesn’t necessarily cut it for a serious lifter, but is fine for the average dude who just wants to drink beer without getting too fat.
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@anna_5588 read this the next time you have a weight fluctuation you can’t reconcile with CICO
I think this is chipping away at what was popularised by John Berardi (he’s the one who planted the idea in my head, sure plenty of others came before him). Weirdly enough I caught myself thinking about not eat too many carbs whilst chowing a load of nuts the other day, then had a brief internal conversation about why, and if it really mattered (I then ate the chocolate I was thinking about, just for reference).
I hadn’t realised how much stuff like this influenced me subconsciously.
That’s not to say that Skip is right and John is wrong, but years of reading these things has an impact, whether good or bad.
Ouch, my arms hurt reading that…
I still see elements of the fats and carbs thing out the world of nutrition. I’m not smart enough on science to be able to comment one way or the other, but the biggest thing I noticed about avoiding mixing carbs and fats was how much better my nutritional DECISIONS became with that as my guide. You quickly see that carbs and fats are basically all the yummy things in the world: pastries, donuts, cakes, nachos, etc. It’s also how we “ruin” healthy choices. Getting some good carbs with your baked potato? Don’t forget to top it with butter, cheese and sour cream!
When I keep my carbs away from my fats, my meals tend to be very well structured and intentional.
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This is actually a good topic, which has been around since at least when Lyle McDonald published his Ketogenic Diet book. The advice then was to avoid fat for 1-2 hours post-workout as the elevated insulin would make the body prone to store this as fat. He has since questioned the validity of this (I think Alan Aragon also claimed it did not matter). Although, I know Luis Villasenor of Ketogains says he still waits 1-2 hours just to be on the safe side.
I believe what we can say with more certainty is that, when presented with energy post-workout (when insulin levels are typically elevated), the body will metabolise carbs first and fat will be put on the back burner, i.e. stored in adipocytes. Whether it’s enough to make you fat will depend on your intake over the longer term.
I have John Berardi’s cookbooks (Gourmet Nutrition v1 & v2) and while they both argue for carbs post-workout (nutrient timing is something Precision Nutrition has since de-emphasised) they aren’t exactly coy about fat post-workout. There are recipes with pretty balanced macros intended as post-workout meals and I always found that odd since I too had learned to avoid fat when eating carbs.
But those books have a hiiiigh meal frequency.
Breakfast
Snack
Lunch
Snack
Dinner
And a peri-workout. So 6 meals on training day.
Yes you’re definitely right there (although probably more specific to cutting) - food combos of fat/carbs are more frequently bad food choices, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the combo is inherently bad.
Man what’s a baked potato without cheese and butter though?! (No matter what else the toppings going going on those two are fundamental).
Yes that’s fairly uncontroversial in the nutrition world I hope!
I suppose it’s going to be individual in terms of storing adipocytes, and also depending on what else has gone on nutritionally up to that point in the day (maybe even week in some cases), some will have a greater ability to deplete and store glycogen and therefore they can probably consume a large number of carbs and throw in some fats and not worry. The more overweight sedentary person who’s lifting lighter and less intense isn’t going to be in the same boat.
Interesting that he’s started to change position (or at least soften on it). It’s why I generally try and take dogmatic views with a pinch of salt, knowledge is frequently evolving and something that’s “fact” today will be laughable tomorrow. I would like to say I go for a moderate sensible approach to my nutrition but anyone who’s looked at my journal will know that poor food choices are a frequent occurrence for me!
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It’s crazy how some of this is so ingrained into our brains that it just inherently happens. Its like the carbs are the devil thing. I have had to work to break that mindset for me and the wife, but we still sometimes just are so used to cooking/eating that way that we still do it. My lunch still is a low to no carb lunch nearly every day…probably will stay that way. I’m just used to it.
I love that he mentions the squat depth thing. That’s been bugging me for a while now. I really need someone to scream “DEPTH” at me when I hit it.
Damn good article.
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I wasn’t trying to communicate that, so if that’s what came across I made a mistake. It’s more just that having that as a guiding principle has eliminated a lot of bad decisions for me. In some cases, it actually is even beneficial to combine fats and carbs. Peanut butter is an incomplete protein, and so is bread: put them together and now we have a complete protein. It’s magic!
No I understood and didn’t think you did mean that, I was just kind of re-stating it out loud.
As a side note:
That was my mid morning snack, with a fairly generous portion of butter under the peanut butter! (Now adding meals to my day, alongside nut snacks - my body will gain weight.
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If you’re interested you should read the full article, but as always with Precision Nutrition they distill a lot of stuff into infographics that could go on any fridge,
The article is called “Is nutrient timing dead?”. The TL;DR-variant of it is: “there’s some nuance to it, you boob”
I imagine there’s as much nuance to being in a caloric surplus. As @alex_uk recent post indicates he seems to be inside that caloric space where increased calories do not equate to weight gain, but rather presumably triggers other mechanism within the body that’ll use up that energy.
Back in the T-nation archives I remember there being quite a lot being written about the concept of anabolic resistance and the value in occassionally employing a deficit despite being in a mass phase.
I remember from old forum posts that a strong physique guy used to have a 1600 calorie day even while gaining just to remain somewhat sensitive to protein/carbs.
Surprised we haven’t yet seen the 5:2-diet reversed. 5 days maintenance, 2 days surplus. Or, maybe that’s Primer 5/2.
I don’t want nuance, I want sound bites and absolutes!
That infographic is perfect and I would agree with that, it’s only in the last 8 weeks doing Dark Horse I have ever felt that intra workout would be beneficial. (Although that’s never stopped me eating a tonne of sweets in and around my training for “intra” carbs!)
Yea this is definitely true, there is for me at least a fair bit of flexibility in my homeostasis, before my body decides it’s time to make some permanent visible changes and changes to the scale. I have upped my game this past week, I’ve yet to see any movement on the scale but soon my body will burst out in a flood of awesome gains (or blubber).
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It can sneak up on you. Do you track a five/seven day moving average? I’ve seen my weight rubberband effect in both directions. You’re not seeing the change you want so you continue altering calories in too short a time frame and then everything happens at once.
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That’s very true, but I’m in the enviable position of staying relatively lean and not particularly caring too much if I get a bit chubby! I’ve definitely been in a surplus this week, meals have increased slightly (mostly just cooking with more oil and tonight I replaced my rice for chips and battered onion rings with my curry) and on top of that I’ve added more nuts more frequently and an extra meal! SHW here I come!
I was picking up what you were putting down. The same thing happened with me when I started to limit sodium.
That single factor eliminated entire food categories.
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There’re studies to show that sore muscles don’t actually use carbs well, so low carb rest days might make sense for high level lifters??
The article was very good, but I must say, idk how much of it would apply to me. At the same time, I am probably more “advanced” in terms of lifting and nutrition than a good portion of the general public and it might be beneficial for me to pay more attention to the nuances?
The insulin-sensitizing effect of exercise is so great that even large amounts of dietary fat do not impair glycogen resynthesis following the first meal or two postexercise
Fox AK, Kaufman AE, and Horowitz JF. Adding fat calories to meals after exercise does not alter glucose tolerance. J Appl Physiol 97: 11 - 16, 2004.
Roy BD, and Tarnopolsky MA. Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 84: 890 - 896, 1998.
Tarnopolsky MA, Bosman M, Macdonald JR, Vandeputte D, Martin J, and Roy BD. Postexercise protein-carbohydrate and carbohydrate supplements increase muscle glycogen in men and women. J Appl Physiol 83: 1877 - 1883, 1997.