SIOE

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

Reading your posts, I often wonder where your take on history comes from.

The Zoroastrian Persians never “allowed muslims to move into their homeland”.

The Arabs armies led several attacks against Sassanid Persians between 633 and 651.
The Persians fought back. Repeatedly. (see the battles of Al-Qadisiyyah and Nihavand, for example).
Persian armies were undermined by years of conflict against the Byzantines and the Khazars, and they were commanded by an inapt leader who reacted too slowly.
And, they were ultimately defeated.

But it was hardly an “invitation”.
It was a planned, armed invasion.

And while we are at it, yes, Amin al-Husseini was definitely an antisemitic asshole.
And yes, many arab muslims were, and are antisemitic assholes.
But he was certainly not responsible of the starting of the Holocaust.

This view is commonly held by neo-nazi revisionnists who argue that, without the Grand Mufti, the jews would have been peacefully relocated in Madagascar and by warmongers who desperately need to demonize the Palestinians, but, either way, it’s nothing more than fringe conspiracy theory.

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@sifu

I havent lived with arabs, but I have lived with iranians, romanians( not muslims I know ) and currently a muslim somalian are living in the same collective as me. So I have some personal experience with muslims and I have read parts of the quoran and I have read some arab history( at the university if that matters ), It doesnt make me an expert at all, but I dont see what you, sexmachine or other ultrarightwingers( or whatever you guys are ) regarding muslim immigration in Europa. When I said that the liberal and socialist sentiments stood strong in my country regardless of muslim immigration in one of my posts way back, I meant that the institutions of democracy, rule of law and female and labour rights stays strong and are respected, even by many people of non-western immigration background. I dont see that chances anytime soon and I believe that
the mayority of the immigrants are influenced by the liberal and socialist sentiments in my country.

Also as a socialist I dont know of any plan to ship a hord of muslims to europa to chance the demographic and therby gain political power because of it( or whatever your conspiracy theory says ). As a socialist with contacts in a socialist party I should have known about this plan shouldt I if it where true?

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[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]jonzy91 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]jonzy91 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
To highlight the epidemic of Pakistani and other ‘certain cultural group’ rape gangs in the U.K. and the rest of the Western world.

I was also wanting to draw attention to the Islamisation of Europe and the vast cultural, social and demographic changes that have destroyed Europe in a generation.

Why do you ask florelius?[/quote]

Okay, I’ll bite since I have some procrastination to do…

I grew up (and live) in a Scandinavian country, in a suburb to a major city. A large share of the population in my hometown are immigrants and Muslims. I went to school with, played sports with, partied with and now work with Muslims. Let me tell you this: they are for the most part (as in 95% of them) like everybody else in the Western world. They want a good job, a family and a nice play to live. Period.

Using an example of gang rape, by some people who happened to be Muslim, as a way to depict the cultural influences of Islam is absolutely atrocious. The equivalent would be, for me to claim that Catholics’ are inherently pedophile since their Priests are fond of small boys (an atrocious claim btw, just to be clear). Both are examples of very poor argumentation. Let’s keep that out the discussion.

Are there Muslims who work against western culture (politically)? Sure. But extremists are part of every religion across the world. There are extremist Christians, extremist Hindus and extremist Sun-Worshippers for all I know. These people should not be used to describe any religious group (as in my example above). In fact, and this might come as a surprise to most Americans, most Muslims are quite conservative and free-market oriented. They believe in hard work and family values.

Are Muslims perfect? Heck no! For me, however, the largest problem is the alarming silence of the moderate Muslims. Often extremists are left unchallenged and this leaves people with the wrong impression of what most practicing Muslims are really like. It could be argued that the silence of the moderate Muslims is simply consent, but from my experience this is simply not the case. [/quote]

Your claim that the so called extremists are only a tiny minority is contradicted by the outcome of the recent elections in Egypt. When the muslim brotherhood and salafists can get over two thirds of the vote it proves that theirs is not in the minority point of view.

Mass immigration from places like Egypt means that small countries like Norway that are getting flooded are going to increasingly start to look like Egypt. There is no way they can maintain their culture on their present course. [/quote]

Yes and no.

The fact that the Muslim Brotherhood and the salafists received large vote shares isn’t simply a function of religion. Their biggest advantage in the elections where that they were not Mubarak and that they helped overthrow his regime. Moreover, it is my understanding that the parties with strong religious ties in the middle east often run of ‘leftist’ platforms and when your country is in utter turmoil that attracts a lot of voters. So the view of the recent elections you present is quite simplified.

That being said, I was somewhat surprised by the results of those elections as the results were not consistent with the image of Egyptians I’ve got from here.
[/quote]

Why would it surprise you that the Egyptians would turn to Salafists? This is a country where ninety percent of women and girls have been victims of genital mutilation. The image you have been given is not a truth because they keep that hidden from outsiders.
[/quote]

I already stated in my previous post why I was somewhat surprised by the outcome of the elections, so there is no reason for you to ask again.

I did not know about the extent of genital mutilation, but it does not change my view on Muslims living in the Western world.

Also, it appears people can actually change (although, not fast enough):

64

[quote]florelius wrote:
@sifu

I havent lived with arabs, but I have lived with iranians, romanians( not muslims I know ) and currently a muslim somalian are living in the same collective as me. So I have some personal experience with muslims and I have read parts of the quoran and I have read some arab history( at the university if that matters ), It doesnt make me an expert at all, but I dont see what you, sexmachine or other ultrarightwingers( or whatever you guys are ) regarding muslim immigration in Europa. When I said that the liberal and socialist sentiments stood strong in my country regardless of muslim immigration in one of my posts way back, I meant that the institutions of democracy, rule of law and female and labour rights stays strong and are respected, even by many people of non-western immigration background. I dont see that chances anytime soon and I believe that
the mayority of the immigrants are influenced by the liberal and socialist sentiments in my country.

Also as a socialist I dont know of any plan to ship a hord of muslims to europa to chance the demographic and therby gain political power because of it( or whatever your conspiracy theory says ). As a socialist with contacts in a socialist party I should have known about this plan shouldt I if it where true?

[/quote]

I’ve known a few Iranians. They aren’t like the Arabs. Just because you have a couple of muslim mates at the university who are educated and willing to associate with a kuffar like you, it doesn’t mean you have a wide range of experience. For example, you aren’t going to meet any members of Boko Haram (“Western education is sacrilege or sin”)at the University. In fact the ones who think like Boko Haram aren’t going to want to have much to do with you anywhere else either.

Dearborn Michigan has the largest Arab community in the world that is outside the middle east. In the Dearborn public schools they no longer have co-ed gym classes because so many muslim parents complained about co-ed gym classes. In America, where the constitution guarantees separation of church and state, where the ACLU is very active to protect that separation in public bodies, that says a lot about the muslim group think in Dearborn and how much they have not been influenced by liberal, American, secular, sentiments.

Every country in Western Europe has been subjected to mass immigration of muslims. With socialists leading the charge to bring in more and more. One of the political tactics you use is race baiting, which is the old Roman tactic of divide and conquer. For example if someone questions why are so many immigrants needed when the economy is in recession and millions are out of work and what about the effect they will have upon the culture, they are denounced with shrill accusations of racism. An accusation which you have made in this discussion.

Frankly I have a hard time believing that in Norway there has been a great success with integrating large numbers of muslims into a very liberal, largely atheist culture. I think the sudden explosion of rapes, which was unheard of until recently, being committed by muslims, indicates that things aren’t as rosy as you paint them.

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Thanks for this thread SexMachine, have you seen this video before?

67

I find it hard to understand how some people don’t understand the importance of borders/fences.
You don’t let your next door neighbour stomp in your yard, just like you don’t let foreigners stomp in your country. That doesn’t make it racist. No one has issues with people from foreign countries immigrating and contributing to their new country just like everyone else. It becomes a problem when those same immigrants start doing what’s been discussed in this thread, and people start playing the ‘racist’ card on anyone who speaks up against it.
There isn’t mass immigration of Europeans/North Americans/etc into Islamic countries, simply because we wouldn’t be welcomed to or treated with the same respect and freedom as foreigners are here. It seems that a lot of people from certain Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries, don’t want to or don’t care to integrate into the country that they’ve entered. And this is an underlying problem. Instead of joining their new country, and bringing the good things that their culture has to offer, they try to carve out their own corner, and then expand it.
Again, if you’re not safe in someones country, why would you allow mass immigration of people from that country into yours? It’s a trojan horse, except it’s not a computer virus, it’s real life. To add to that, whatever issues a country is facing, it needs to be dealt with from within, e.g. if Muslim extremists are gang raping like it’s going out of style, then Muslim moderates need to be the one’s to call them out, and let everyone know that that shit won’t be tolerated. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen enough(or isn’t reported enough so that it becomes common knowledge that they’re routing out the bad apples), and as is often the case, the most vicious silence the most sensible.

68

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Thanks for this thread SexMachine, have you seen this video before?

Yes, I have seen it. Some people have questioned the figures but even the UN admits that several countries in Western Europe will be semi-Islamised by 2030. Anyone who doesn’t understand the significance of that should look a list of all the Islamic countries on earth and ask themselves which one they’d like to live in.

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Yes, I have seen it. Some people have questioned the figures but even the UN admits that several countries in Western Europe will be semi-Islamised by 2030. Anyone who doesn’t understand the significance of that should look a list of all the Islamic countries on earth and ask themselves which one they’d like to live in.[/quote]

Come on, SexMachine. I get that you don’t like Muslims and all, but that is just outright ridiculous. Try to turn down the fear mongering a notch or two…

Here’s a recent article from The Economist that debunks most of what’s in the video:

Can you please link to the UN sources that predict semi-islamization of some Western European countries? I would be very interested in reading them.

71

Well, he is right, in a way.
That’s the magic of “semi”.

You can always semi-predict many semi-things. You will end up being semi-right.

72

[quote]jonzy91 wrote:

Come on, SexMachine. I get that you don’t like Muslims and all, but that is just outright ridiculous. Try to turn down the fear mongering a notch or two…

[/quote]

Europe is already semi-Islamised. What’s the point in quibbling over numbers? I questioned the accuracy of those statistics myself.

Actually no, it does nothing of the sort. Read it again. According to the UN, 'global population is supposed to peak at about nine billion in 2050. That’s what the author is pointing out. The number isn’t important but rather its constituent parts. As well as the Islamic immigration, there is also one of the largest population migrations in history going on as Eastern Europe floods into Western Europe.

Even some of the silly liberal Eurotrash can see what’s going on. As the Swedish minister of “integration” Jens Orback said “we must be nice to Muslims now so that when they’re in the majority they’ll be nice to us.”

According to statistics from the U.N., Islam is now the world’s second largest religion after Christianity. The U.N. statistics state that the Islam annual growth rate of Islam is around 6.40% compared to 1.46% during the same time period for Christianity. Also according to these statistics, one in five people on the planet are Muslim (by birth or geographical reference).

Islam in North America since 1989 increased 25%

Islam in Asia since 1989 increased 12.57%

Islam in Europe since 1989 increased 142.35%

Islam in Australia and Oceania / Pacific since 1989 increased 257.01%

The largest political organisation in the history of mankind is the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. This body that has hijacked the UN and most its bodies including the Human Rights Council. It has imposed draconian international heresy laws amongst other things - protecting despots, hiding/inciting genocide, opposing free speech, women’s rights and freedom of religion from within the UN.

OIC, Article 24: “All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari’a”

You’d like to read about those countries? Okay.

In the Muslim housing projects of France, according to official statistics, the number of rapes rose by an annual 15-20% each year of the first decade of the 21st century. One victim, Samira Bellil, published her autobiography(In the hell of take-your-turns) describing the culture. Her parents threw her out and her community disowned her. In La Coureuve, 77 percent of Muslim women said they wore the veil to “avoid the wrath of Islamic morality patrols.” Two-thirds of all French imams are on benefits.

So there’s an example of semi-Islamisation.

73

[quote]kamui wrote:

Well, he is right, in a way.
That’s the magic of “semi”.

You can always semi-predict many semi-things. You will end up being semi-right. [/quote]

You don’t like the word “semi” kamui? Too vague? Do you have anything to say about any of the factual information I have posted describing what I mean by “semi-Islamised?” Do you want to address the topic? Are you seriously denying that Europe is becomming increasingly Islamised? Or is that a good thing? I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make. Just another moral crusader with nothing to say? All silly insinuations and no substance. That about sums it up doesn’t it?

74

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Well, he is right, in a way.
That’s the magic of “semi”.

You can always semi-predict many semi-things. You will end up being semi-right. [/quote]

You don’t like the word “semi” kamui? Too vague? Do you have anything to say about any of the factual information I have posted describing what I mean by “semi-Islamised?” Do you want to address the topic? Are you seriously denying that Europe is becomming increasingly Islamised? Or is that a good thing? I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make. Just another moral crusader with nothing to say? All silly insinuations and no substance. That about sums it up doesn’t it?[/quote]

I will tell you a secret.
I, for one, am an european.
I live in a country where muslims are approximately 10 percent of the population.
My own family is so semi-islamized that my sister have a muslim mother-in-laws.

This very morning, the main subject in my full-of-young-muslims classroom will probably be the terrorist Mohammed Merah, an “Al Qaeda” guy who recently killed jewish children in Toulouse.

If anything, i am a living thermometer measuring the heat of islamization in the very asshole of Europe.

And since i’m not your usual liberal tool, nor an ostrich with his head buried in the sand, i’m afraid you won’t teach me anything about europe “semi-islamization”.

I could probably teach you, an australian expert, a few things about it.
If you weren’t my usual far-right propagandist, that is.

for now, i’m still waiting for an unconcealed, direct answer to my previous question.

75

[quote]kamui wrote:

I will tell you a secret.
I, for one, am an european.
I live in a country where muslims are approximately 10 percent of the population.
My own family is so semi-islamized that my sister have a muslim mother-in-laws.

This very morning, the main subject in my full-of-young-muslims classroom will probably be the terrorist Mohammed Merah, an “Al Qaeda” guy who recently killed jewish children in Toulouse.

[/quote]

Yes I know. The French say the Americans put him on flight from Afghanistan to France. The Americans say the French put him on a flight from Afghanistan to France. First the French tried to blame disgruntled “neo-Nazi” former soldiers. Then they say they’ve been watching this guy all along. Now we know he is a member of Forsane Alizza - their website says they’re aim is to “fight Islamophobia.” After posting material on their website calling for al-Qaeda/Taliban volunteers they then took the French government to court over the fall-face veil ban. The government finally declared them a terrorist group in January this year.

Can’t be taught. And so far you haven’t said anything other than that you’re related to a Muslim and you teach lots of Muslim kids. Nothing else.

Right/left: meaningless terms. I’m a conservative. I oppose extremism. So far I’ve been called an “Islamophobe” and a racist half a dozen times for raising…um, how shall I put it, “culturally specific social, political and religious problems” and demographic realities. Not sure how that makes me a “right-wing propagandist.” Was Theo van Gogh a right-winger? I thought he was a coke-snorting nihilist crackpot. How about Pim Fortuyn? I thought he was a queer liberal? Where are they now?

I don’t know what question you mean.

[quote]kamui wrote:

Well, he is right, in a way.
That’s the magic of “semi”.

You can always semi-predict many semi-things. You will end up being semi-right. [/quote]

Perhaps you could direct me to the question or repeat it. As I said before, you haven’t actually said anything. You’ve said you’re related to a Muslim and that you teach Muslim kids and that you’re a good barometer of the Islamisation of your country. But then instead of going on from there and giving an opinion you call me a “right-wing propagandist” and condescendingly claim that you could teach me “a few things about it” if it weren’t for that.

So are you for increasing Islamisation? Against it? Don’t believe it exists? Who knows? “Right-wing propagandists” can’t/don’t get to know. They’re “Islamophobes”/racists/(insert sly insuation here.)

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:
According to statistics from the U.N., Islam is now the world’s second largest religion after Christianity. The U.N. statistics state that the Islam annual growth rate of Islam is around 6.40% compared to 1.46% during the same time period for Christianity. Also according to these statistics, one in five people on the planet are Muslim (by birth or geographical reference).

Islam in North America since 1989 increased 25%

Islam in Asia since 1989 increased 12.57%

Islam in Europe since 1989 increased 142.35%

Islam in Australia and Oceania / Pacific since 1989 increased 257.01%

The largest political organisation in the history of mankind is the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. This body that has hijacked the UN and most its bodies including the Human Rights Council. It has imposed draconian international heresy laws amongst other things - protecting despots, hiding/inciting genocide, opposing free speech, women’s rights and freedom of religion from within the UN.

OIC, Article 24: “All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari’a”

You’d like to read about those countries? Okay.

In the Muslim housing projects of France, according to official statistics, the number of rapes rose by an annual 15-20% each year of the first decade of the 21st century. One victim, Samira Bellil, published her autobiography(In the hell of take-your-turns) describing the culture. Her parents threw her out and her community disowned her. In La Coureuve, 77 percent of Muslim women said they wore the veil to “avoid the wrath of Islamic morality patrols.” Two-thirds of all French imams are on benefits.

So there’s an example of semi-Islamisation.[/quote]

Those are some nice numbers you found there. The only problem is that they deal with past growth rates. I asked you about forecasts on the spread of Islam through 2030/2050.

I’ll do you a solid and link to some actual research:

By 2030 two (2!) Western European countries (France and Belgium) will have Muslim populations in excess of 10% (10.3% and 10.2%, respectively). If you consider 10% semi-islamization, then you’re right. I disagree with that premise, however.

77

There isn’t going to be a Europe as we know it by 2030-2050. Look at Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Wales etc. A perfect storm of conditions has been created in Europe. The collapse of the economy; the collapse of society and even the family unit; mass immigration; foreign enemies; fifth columnists. The U.S. is next.

They’re watching Los Zetas/Sinaloa/Gulf/MS13 maniacs and millions of peons flooding into the country. The whole world is going to shit. I’m not interested in quibbling over demographic statistics.

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[quote]jonzy91 wrote:

By 2030 two (2!) Western European countries (France and Belgium) will have Muslim populations in excess of 10% (10.3% and 10.2%, respectively).

[/quote]

Well right now there are no-go areas in major cities. “Morality patrols” enforcing sharia. Gang rape epidemics. Terrorism. Do you think it would be a good idea to continue on the path of accepting migrants from Islamic countries? Forget numbers. Just answer the question. Do you think there will be less of these things or more of these things?

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

I will tell you a secret.
I, for one, am an european.
I live in a country where muslims are approximately 10 percent of the population.
My own family is so semi-islamized that my sister have a muslim mother-in-laws.

This very morning, the main subject in my full-of-young-muslims classroom will probably be the terrorist Mohammed Merah, an “Al Qaeda” guy who recently killed jewish children in Toulouse.

[/quote]

Yes I know. The French say the Americans put him on flight from Afghanistan to France. The Americans say the French put him on a flight from Afghanistan to France. First the French tried to blame disgruntled “neo-Nazi” former soldiers. Then they say they’ve been watching this guy all along. Now we know he is a member of Forsane Alizza - their website says they’re aim is to “fight Islamophobia.” After posting material on their website calling for al-Qaeda/Taliban volunteers they then took the French government to court over the fall-face veil ban. The government finally declared them a terrorist group in January this year.

I’ve read the blame on the neo-nazis was a red herring put out by the government to get merah out in the open (on the guardian fwiw)

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[quote]Bambi wrote:

I’ve read the blame on the neo-nazis was a red herring put out by the government to get merah out in the open (on the guardian fwiw)[/quote]

I thought that might’ve been the reason actually. But it’s hard to tell these days. What with officials in the U.S. government and Army blaming Major Hasan’s rampage on everything from the housing crisis to pre-PTSD and that sort of stuff.