[quote]EF5127 wrote:
If you come to me and say it didn’t work I’ll know you didn’t do it.[/quote]
It’s raining cold hard facts up in here.
So we have:
IF or Green Face for the win.
[quote]Destor wrote:
Calorie counting is pretty useless in general IMHO, I have absolutely no difficulty staying very lean eating fat/protein, even the densest sources of fat calories (Pork Belly, Macadamias and Walnuts are my go-to snacks) don’t make me lose any definition whatsoever, and I stuff myself constantly.[/quote]
this might work for you but for most it wont
bragging about your genetics isnt going to help OP - lol
[quote]dre1986 wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Calorie counting is pretty useless in general IMHO, I have absolutely no difficulty staying very lean eating fat/protein, even the densest sources of fat calories (Pork Belly, Macadamias and Walnuts are my go-to snacks) don’t make me lose any definition whatsoever, and I stuff myself constantly.[/quote]
this might work for you but for most it wont
bragging about your genetics isnt going to help OP - lol [/quote]
He isn’t necessarily touting good genetics, tho.
I have shocking genetics, I was 138kgs at 6"4 when I was 15, pure fat having never lifted. Now, I eat pork belly whenever I want, and all the walnuts and almonds/macadamias I can afford. I’m 6"4, 110.5kgs and ~12% BF. I never do cardio.
I lost weight my own way before I was into bodybuilding. These days though, If i eat like a normal person the scale keeps going up with added fat. If i avoid carbs and replace it with more fat, I never get fat.
I have found that I am able to eat as much fat and protein as desired, provided carbs are avoided like the plague. The bodies appetite regulation kicks in before you can overfeed yourself on fats and protein. Once a week, I carb load (1000g carbs at least, at my size). DiPasquale had it right pretty much, I’ve convinced myself of that over these last five years.
If i want to get below 12% bodyfat, only then do I start watching the volume of fats I eat. The way I regulate the volume is to fast for the first 8 hours of every second day (I train EOD). This gets me to 9% in a few weeks, still with no cardio.
If i want 8% or lower, I add in cardio and keep watching fats / extending the fast by a few hours.
Summary: Drop carbs, increase fats, start using intermittent fasting when you want to get really lean.
[quote]Intermezzo wrote:
[quote]dre1986 wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Calorie counting is pretty useless in general IMHO, I have absolutely no difficulty staying very lean eating fat/protein, even the densest sources of fat calories (Pork Belly, Macadamias and Walnuts are my go-to snacks) don’t make me lose any definition whatsoever, and I stuff myself constantly.[/quote]
this might work for you but for most it wont
bragging about your genetics isnt going to help OP - lol [/quote]
He isn’t necessarily touting good genetics, tho.
I have shocking genetics, I was 138kgs at 6"4 when I was 15, pure fat having never lifted. Now, I eat pork belly whenever I want, and all the walnuts and almonds/macadamias I can afford. I’m 6"4, 110.5kgs and ~12% BF. I never do cardio.
I lost weight my own way before I was into bodybuilding. These days though, If i eat like a normal person the scale keeps going up with added fat. If i avoid carbs and replace it with more fat, I never get fat.
I have found that I am able to eat as much fat and protein as desired, provided carbs are avoided like the plague. The bodies appetite regulation kicks in before you can overfeed yourself on fats and protein. Once a week, I carb load (1000g carbs at least, at my size). DiPasquale had it right pretty much, I’ve convinced myself of that over these last five years.
If i want to get below 12% bodyfat, only then do I start watching the volume of fats I eat. The way I regulate the volume is to fast for the first 8 hours of every second day (I train EOD). This gets me to 9% in a few weeks, still with no cardio.
If i want 8% or lower, I add in cardio and keep watching fats / extending the fast by a few hours.
Summary: Drop carbs, increase fats, start using intermittent fasting when you want to get really lean.[/quote]
I completely agree with the IF, but to say that eveyone can just eat as much fat as they want while watching the carbs jsut isnt right. Obviously after years of training and eating yo’ve found that you have an intolerance to carbs, or that the partioning of them isnt great for you, others can eat shit loads of carbs and not put a bit of weight on, usually because they’re fat intake will drop as a result of more carbs.
At the end of the day everyone is diffent, i just dont want the OP getting the idea that just because you and Destor can eat as much fat (good fat) as you want and stay lean, that he can do the same. He may well be the opposite and be able to consume 400gr of carbs a day but as soon as his fat intake goes up, he blows up.
Most people on this site know that the more carbs you eat, the more carbs you burn for energy and as a result the less fat. However the amount of fat you eat doesnt really affect the amount of fat you use for energy, it would simply mean that is likely you’re eating less carbs, and as a result burning more fat for energy.
Op needs to figure out what work for him but from the sounds of it we both agree intermitent fasting is the way to go either way. you cant argue with oxidizing fat for 12 hours a day!
Cardio and lift and then more cardio. five or six small clean healty meals then do more cardio.
[quote]dre1986 wrote:
[quote]Intermezzo wrote:
[quote]dre1986 wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Calorie counting is pretty useless in general IMHO, I have absolutely no difficulty staying very lean eating fat/protein, even the densest sources of fat calories (Pork Belly, Macadamias and Walnuts are my go-to snacks) don’t make me lose any definition whatsoever, and I stuff myself constantly.[/quote]
this might work for you but for most it wont
bragging about your genetics isnt going to help OP - lol [/quote]
He isn’t necessarily touting good genetics, tho.
I have shocking genetics, I was 138kgs at 6"4 when I was 15, pure fat having never lifted. Now, I eat pork belly whenever I want, and all the walnuts and almonds/macadamias I can afford. I’m 6"4, 110.5kgs and ~12% BF. I never do cardio.
I lost weight my own way before I was into bodybuilding. These days though, If i eat like a normal person the scale keeps going up with added fat. If i avoid carbs and replace it with more fat, I never get fat.
I have found that I am able to eat as much fat and protein as desired, provided carbs are avoided like the plague. The bodies appetite regulation kicks in before you can overfeed yourself on fats and protein. Once a week, I carb load (1000g carbs at least, at my size). DiPasquale had it right pretty much, I’ve convinced myself of that over these last five years.
If i want to get below 12% bodyfat, only then do I start watching the volume of fats I eat. The way I regulate the volume is to fast for the first 8 hours of every second day (I train EOD). This gets me to 9% in a few weeks, still with no cardio.
If i want 8% or lower, I add in cardio and keep watching fats / extending the fast by a few hours.
Summary: Drop carbs, increase fats, start using intermittent fasting when you want to get really lean.[/quote]
I completely agree with the IF, but to say that eveyone can just eat as much fat as they want while watching the carbs jsut isnt right. Obviously after years of training and eating yo’ve found that you have an intolerance to carbs, or that the partioning of them isnt great for you, others can eat shit loads of carbs and not put a bit of weight on, usually because they’re fat intake will drop as a result of more carbs.
At the end of the day everyone is diffent, i just dont want the OP getting the idea that just because you and Destor can eat as much fat (good fat) as you want and stay lean, that he can do the same. He may well be the opposite and be able to consume 400gr of carbs a day but as soon as his fat intake goes up, he blows up.
Most people on this site know that the more carbs you eat, the more carbs you burn for energy and as a result the less fat. However the amount of fat you eat doesnt really affect the amount of fat you use for energy, it would simply mean that is likely you’re eating less carbs, and as a result burning more fat for energy.
Op needs to figure out what work for him but from the sounds of it we both agree intermitent fasting is the way to go either way. you cant argue with oxidizing fat for 12 hours a day!
[/quote]
Fair point, everyone is different - trainers often point out that a minotirty people stay leaner with more carbs, some on very low carbs, with the majority somewhere in the middle. The OP should indeed work out what works best for him
Initially, I just wanted to point out that eating pork belly and walnuts whilst staying lean does not mean one has excellent genetics. I think most strength coaches would agree that it is the individual who can stay lean with more carbs is the genetics freak
[quote]dre1986 wrote:
[quote]Intermezzo wrote:
[quote]dre1986 wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Calorie counting is pretty useless in general IMHO, I have absolutely no difficulty staying very lean eating fat/protein, even the densest sources of fat calories (Pork Belly, Macadamias and Walnuts are my go-to snacks) don’t make me lose any definition whatsoever, and I stuff myself constantly.[/quote]
this might work for you but for most it wont
bragging about your genetics isnt going to help OP - lol [/quote]
He isn’t necessarily touting good genetics, tho.
I have shocking genetics, I was 138kgs at 6"4 when I was 15, pure fat having never lifted. Now, I eat pork belly whenever I want, and all the walnuts and almonds/macadamias I can afford. I’m 6"4, 110.5kgs and ~12% BF. I never do cardio.
I lost weight my own way before I was into bodybuilding. These days though, If i eat like a normal person the scale keeps going up with added fat. If i avoid carbs and replace it with more fat, I never get fat.
I have found that I am able to eat as much fat and protein as desired, provided carbs are avoided like the plague. The bodies appetite regulation kicks in before you can overfeed yourself on fats and protein. Once a week, I carb load (1000g carbs at least, at my size). DiPasquale had it right pretty much, I’ve convinced myself of that over these last five years.
If i want to get below 12% bodyfat, only then do I start watching the volume of fats I eat. The way I regulate the volume is to fast for the first 8 hours of every second day (I train EOD). This gets me to 9% in a few weeks, still with no cardio.
If i want 8% or lower, I add in cardio and keep watching fats / extending the fast by a few hours.
Summary: Drop carbs, increase fats, start using intermittent fasting when you want to get really lean.[/quote]
I completely agree with the IF, but to say that eveyone can just eat as much fat as they want while watching the carbs jsut isnt right. Obviously after years of training and eating yo’ve found that you have an intolerance to carbs, or that the partioning of them isnt great for you, others can eat shit loads of carbs and not put a bit of weight on, usually because they’re fat intake will drop as a result of more carbs.
At the end of the day everyone is diffent, i just dont want the OP getting the idea that just because you and Destor can eat as much fat (good fat) as you want and stay lean, that he can do the same. He may well be the opposite and be able to consume 400gr of carbs a day but as soon as his fat intake goes up, he blows up.
Most people on this site know that the more carbs you eat, the more carbs you burn for energy and as a result the less fat. However the amount of fat you eat doesnt really affect the amount of fat you use for energy, it would simply mean that is likely you’re eating less carbs, and as a result burning more fat for energy.
Op needs to figure out what work for him but from the sounds of it we both agree intermitent fasting is the way to go either way. you cant argue with oxidizing fat for 12 hours a day!
[/quote]
I’m most definitely not touting my genetics, I’m no different from the typical person.
My girlfriend started at 230lbs, has a body that is completely different (she puts on weight very easily, I don’t), and she has dropped 45lbs now eating the same diet I do, mass amounts of calories from the fattiest cuts of meat imaginable, and restricting carbs. The only time her progress ever stalls is when we eat carbs.
[quote]JLone wrote:
So we have:
IF or Green Face for the win. [/quote]
Green Faces would be another close-to-no-brainer:
http://www.T-Nation.com/testosterone-magazine-635#green-faces-diet
Carb Nite. I read about it on Elite. The author is a physicist. It is a good read even if you don’t go through with the diet. Consists mainly of keeping to 30g Carbs per day for 10 days and on last day have a carb night. Then repeat for 4-5 days and have a carb night.
The diet is not meant to be long term. The author suggest no more than 6 months.
I like it so far but the lack on carbs on training days sucks.
Risking coming off like a dick to open some people’s eyes…this thread has some of the worst advice I have ever seen from people who don’t look like they have nearly enough experience to give any advice.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
Risking coming off like a dick to open some people’s eyes…this thread has some of the worst advice I have ever seen from people who don’t look like they have nearly enough experience to give any advice.[/quote]
You are coming off like a dick. You came in here to post and managed to add absolutely nothing while simultaneously knocking others.
I’ll try to add something for whoever cares.
IF works, just like any form of calorie restriction works. IF is merely a way to structure your meals while creating a deficit and one that many have found to be an effective way. Do not think you can eat as much pork belly, macadamia nuts or whatever other shit the other guy mentioned and not get fat on a surplus. Calculate your macros off the formulas that Martin gives you on the Leangains site, fit that into an 8 hour eating window then repeat until desired outcome is reached.
[quote]ColinD624 wrote:
Do not think you can eat as much pork belly, macadamia nuts or whatever other shit the other guy mentioned and not get fat on a surplus.[/quote]
I do it.
I know many other people who do it.
My girlfriend is losing weight doing it.
Nobody is getting fat eating pork belly and nuts.
Simple Plan sucks. I’d recommend metal for training to cut…not that whiny pop punk.
[quote]Destor wrote:
[quote]ColinD624 wrote:
Do not think you can eat as much pork belly, macadamia nuts or whatever other shit the other guy mentioned and not get fat on a surplus.[/quote]
I do it.
I know many other people who do it.
My girlfriend is losing weight doing it.
Nobody is getting fat eating pork belly and nuts.[/quote]
Ignorant post is ignorant.
Plural of anecdote is not evidence.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
Risking coming off like a dick to open some people’s eyes…this thread has some of the worst advice I have ever seen from people who don’t look like they have nearly enough experience to give any advice.[/quote]
would you like to elaborate? Hiding behind a blanket statement isnt going to help anyone.
what advice are you refering to and what can you add to the discussion?
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Ignorant post is ignorant.
Plural of anecdote is not evidence.
[/quote]
There is plenty of evidence out there to support this. Controlled studies in which people on calorically unrestricted ketogenic (or just “low-carb”) diets lose equal amounts of weight as those following a calorically restricted “balanced” diet. In other words, likely eating more calories than the other group or at least not worrying about them, while still achieving the same results.
Dr Cordain had one study where he took men who ate a balanced diet and switched them to low-carb but had to increase their caloric intake by a few hundred calories to maintain the same weight.
What’s ignorant is believing that the human body is just a thermodynamic black box, where you put surplus calories in and your body has no say in what is stored and what isn’t. I wish it were that simple, but that’s far from the case.
Fat accumulation is a problem of biology, not physics and the solution consequently has very little to do with physics as well. Find me one person, just one, that has accumulated large amounts of body fat on a ketogenic diet. They don’t exist, you don’t get fat without carbohydrates, its as simple as that. You could sit and eat pork belly all day long, you will not become obese, despite it having 500 something calories per 100gs.
Prove me wrong, try it yourself. I’ve tried, my goal is adding mass, and I cannot do it nor can anyone else that I know on other forums that follow a similar diet. The only animals that are getting fat by eating fat are mice that are bred specifically for that purpose.
[quote]Destor wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Ignorant post is ignorant.
Plural of anecdote is not evidence.
[/quote]
There is plenty of evidence out there to support this. Controlled studies in which people on calorically unrestricted ketogenic (or just “low-carb”) diets lose equal amounts of weight as those following a calorically restricted “balanced” diet. In other words, likely eating more calories than the other group or at least not worrying about them, while still achieving the same results.
[/quote]
Yep. Calorically unrestricted =/= as much as you can without gaining fat. Fat is the most satiating macro, so it’s difficult to consume enough to gain weight on a ketogenic diet.
Sounds about right.
[quote]
What’s ignorant is believing that the human body is just a thermodynamic black box, where you put surplus calories in and your body has no say in what is stored and what isn’t. I wish it were that simple, but that’s far from the case.[/quote]
I agree. That’s also ignorant.
[quote]
Fat accumulation is a problem of biology, not physics and the solution consequently has very little to do with physics as well. Find me one person, just one, that has accumulated large amounts of body fat on a ketogenic diet. They don’t exist, you don’t get fat without carbohydrates, its as simple as that. You could sit and eat pork belly all day long, you will not become obese, despite it having 500 something calories per 100gs.[/quote]
This is where ignorance enters. Problem of Biology AND Physics. Conservation of energy is still the underlying equation at play here; however, it is not as simple as we’d like to think, because of Biology.
But I ask you, in caloric surprlus of pork belly and nuts, where are the extra calories going if you were to double your intake overnight???
I do have a friend who eats paleo without any fruit, so essentially her only carb sources are veggies. She’s well within the ketogenic range for eating, and she has gotten fat. Why? Let’s see, she’s 130 5’2" little thing and whenever we’d eat out or have dinner together, she ate just as much as I do. She used to tell me to exactly what you’re saying. Believed it so much she was oblivious to her own fat gain.
[quote]
Prove me wrong, try it yourself. I’ve tried, my goal is adding mass, and I cannot do it nor can anyone else that I know on other forums that follow a similar diet. The only animals that are getting fat by eating fat are mice that are bred specifically for that purpose.[/quote]
I have tried it when I was cutting last summer and got down to 10% body fat. I was also eating a whopping 1800 cal/day at the time. Why the hell would you try to gain mass on ketogenic diet? Seriously?
The point I’m mainly trying to make here is that, realistically, calories don’t matter when you’re eating a ketogenic diet, mainly because fat and protein are so satiating.
If you can eat 1,000 extra calories of fat every single day, sure, maybe you’ll gain bodyfat. Who can actually do that though? I’ve been working on gaining weight for almost 3 years now, I’m very good at force feeding myself and I know without a doubt that I could never accomplish that.
Look at my display picture, that’s me on an average day and I think it’s safe to say that I’m extremely lean. I don’t count calories at all, I don’t worry about calories, because I know that I’ll never eat enough protein/fat to accumulate any amount of bodyfat. Add carbohydrates and it would come very easily.
What was this friend of yours eating that made her able to overcome this? I along with many other people who have tried gaining weight on a low-carb diet would like to know her secret. Then again, females have a much easier time adding weight in general.
I’m actually following a cyclic ketogenic diet now.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Ignorant post is ignorant.
Plural of anecdote is not evidence.
[/quote]
There is plenty of evidence out there to support this. Controlled studies in which people on calorically unrestricted ketogenic (or just “low-carb”) diets lose equal amounts of weight as those following a calorically restricted “balanced” diet. In other words, likely eating more calories than the other group or at least not worrying about them, while still achieving the same results.
[/quote]
Yep. Calorically unrestricted =/= as much as you can without gaining fat. Fat is the most satiating macro, so it’s difficult to consume enough to gain weight on a ketogenic diet.
Sounds about right.
[quote]
What’s ignorant is believing that the human body is just a thermodynamic black box, where you put surplus calories in and your body has no say in what is stored and what isn’t. I wish it were that simple, but that’s far from the case.[/quote]
I agree. That’s also ignorant.
[quote]
Fat accumulation is a problem of biology, not physics and the solution consequently has very little to do with physics as well. Find me one person, just one, that has accumulated large amounts of body fat on a ketogenic diet. They don’t exist, you don’t get fat without carbohydrates, its as simple as that. You could sit and eat pork belly all day long, you will not become obese, despite it having 500 something calories per 100gs.[/quote]
This is where ignorance enters. Problem of Biology AND Physics. Conservation of energy is still the underlying equation at play here; however, it is not as simple as we’d like to think, because of Biology.
But I ask you, in caloric surprlus of pork belly and nuts, where are the extra calories going if you were to double your intake overnight???
I do have a friend who eats paleo without any fruit, so essentially her only carb sources are veggies. She’s well within the ketogenic range for eating, and she has gotten fat. Why? Let’s see, she’s 130 5’2" little thing and whenever we’d eat out or have dinner together, she ate just as much as I do. She used to tell me to exactly what you’re saying. Believed it so much she was oblivious to her own fat gain.
[quote]
Prove me wrong, try it yourself. I’ve tried, my goal is adding mass, and I cannot do it nor can anyone else that I know on other forums that follow a similar diet. The only animals that are getting fat by eating fat are mice that are bred specifically for that purpose.[/quote]
I have tried it when I was cutting last summer and got down to 10% body fat. I was also eating a whopping 1800 cal/day at the time. Why the hell would you try to gain mass on ketogenic diet? Seriously?[/quote]
If you’re not gaining weight, you’re not in a surplus of energy. If you’re not losing weight, you’re not in a deficit.
Hormones and the endocrine system are of the utmost of importance, but considering an average/healthy individual, most people need to simply be focusing on calories. Once your calories are in line (surplus to gain, deficit to lose) THEN you customize your macro ratios and begin further micromanagment depending on if you’re insulin resistant or metabolize fats poorly.
With regards to your girlfriend, it sounds like she was extremely over weight to begin with, so ANY improvement in her diet would yield her dropping weight.
Since you’re clearly just starting out, you’ve just stumbled upon one strategy that works. I’ve employed very low carb strategies before as well and they’re ok but they’re just one option and don’t work well for everyone, so please stop spreading generalized blanket statements when no two people share the same physiology.
I’ve gotten very lean going low carb/keto, lower fat/high carb, 33/33/33 ratios, carb cycling etc. Do you know what the underlying factor as to why I lost fat and got lean was eating with all of these strategies? I was in a deficit of calories, it won’t work otherwise.
Why are you avoiding carbs if your goal is to put on mass? If that’s you in your AVI, you have very little muscle. You do realize insulin is the most anabolic/powerful hormone your body releases? You do realize that carbs are most responsible for it’s release? You speak of biology and yet aren’t using this to your advantage.
[quote]Destor wrote:
The point I’m mainly trying to make here is that, realistically, calories don’t matter when you’re eating a ketogenic diet, mainly because fat and protein are so satiating.
If you can eat 1,000 extra calories of fat every single day, sure, maybe you’ll gain bodyfat. Who can actually do that though? I’ve been working on gaining weight for almost 3 years now, I’m very good at force feeding myself and I know without a doubt that I could never accomplish that.
Look at my display picture, that’s me on an average day and I think it’s safe to say that I’m extremely lean. I don’t count calories at all, I don’t worry about calories, because I know that I’ll never eat enough protein/fat to accumulate any amount of bodyfat. Add carbohydrates and it would come very easily.
What was this friend of yours eating that made her able to overcome this? I along with many other people who have tried gaining weight on a low-carb diet would like to know her secret. Then again, females have a much easier time adding weight in general.
I’m actually following a cyclic ketogenic diet now.[/quote]
You really don’t look that lean to me. Your abs are showing, but your bodyfat percentage probably isn’t all that low because of your lack of muscle.