i think this is what LiveFromThe781 meant:
i’m kind of a new guy on here…posting anyway, reading T-Nation and training for a few years. i’m pretty smert though:P
three days a week seems alot.
presses first mostly, pre-exhaust occasionally e.g. laterals first, but usually i put big weight presses first, i bounce back and forth between arnold presses old traditional overheads, either way don’t lock at the top, keep continuous load capacity on the shoulders.
sometimes presses w/ smith machine (dirty word) are great seated because of the range of motion at the bottom of the movement.
prioritize your lateral raises from back to front, most people are lacking in the back.
good luck, kick ass, women who lift kick ass.
skinny fat cardio girls just don’t get it. Cutting their noses to spite their faces so to speak.
[quote]shizen wrote:
"I do machine military presses, cross over cable pulls, lateral rows and DB presses (usually superset the last two). "
First those for me are not great exercises at all, other then maybe dumbbell presses yet then you superset it so you don’t get the full benefit from it.
…
For the most part you will want to lift HEAVY in order to make good gains especially as intermediate and beginner.
If your actually lifting very heavy with push press, bench press, incline press, and then dumbell presses you won’t need to hit your shoulders 3x a week or with nearly as much volume and you should get much better gains.
It seems to me your doing very light weight and high reps with tons of volume, and it FEELS like your working them a lot when your really just experiencing a minor pump. With the exercises your doing for shoulder you can’t load that much weight, so your gains will be limited. [/quote]
This was the first reasonable response I’ve seen in the entire thread.
To put it simply, OP… you are training “like a girl”. That is your problem.
[quote]mr popular wrote:
shizen wrote:
"I do machine military presses, cross over cable pulls, lateral rows and DB presses (usually superset the last two). "
First those for me are not great exercises at all, other then maybe dumbbell presses yet then you superset it so you don’t get the full benefit from it.
…
For the most part you will want to lift HEAVY in order to make good gains especially as intermediate and beginner.
If your actually lifting very heavy with push press, bench press, incline press, and then dumbell presses you won’t need to hit your shoulders 3x a week or with nearly as much volume and you should get much better gains.
It seems to me your doing very light weight and high reps with tons of volume, and it FEELS like your working them a lot when your really just experiencing a minor pump. With the exercises your doing for shoulder you can’t load that much weight, so your gains will be limited.
This was the first reasonable response I’ve seen in the entire thread.
To put it simply, OP… you are training “like a girl”. That is your problem.[/quote]
Really? You don’t know what my routine consists of and you don’t know how much I lift. How would I have built up my physique to what it is doing girly lifts? Wow maybe I’m genetically gifted because I have some purty muscles after lifting so little.
Oh just to go over the original questions for the nimrods here they are. Please don’t respond if you are clueless to the answer:
Is it that less is more when it comes to shoulders or is hitting them three times per week good for growth?
Does the frequency and intensity vary depending on the individual?
Less is more for big muscle groups.
The only muscles you can really hit A LOT are small groups like, calves, forearms, abs, ext. Legs are an exception since they can handle quite a bit of volume-yet 3x a week would be max-, yet even less volume for the most part will work just as well.
So yeah I would not work my shoulders 3x a week.
I assumed you did really high reps because first your a girl-sexist w/e- second the exercises you listed are usually done in high reps with not much weight so the intensity is lower.
i do believe that freq. and intensity are dependant on the individual. however, take into consideration that the shoulder, like the calves, are worked all the time. since they’re uded to high freq., then it wouldnt make sense to work them less often. and since they get 'high volume", it makes sense to use HEAVY weights. i’d say the 6-8 rep range.
as for exercises, i think the only thing overhead pressing is good for is to balance out vertical pulling. thats it. the anterior delts get enough stimulation as it is through other pressing movements. the delt heads to focus on are the lateral and posterior ones. my best choices would be:
-
upright rows (if you dont have shoulder problems)
-
barbell rows with elbows flared out
-
cable side lateral raises.
the upright rows target the lateral AND posterior heads, plus traps and bi’s to a degree, so i think its a win-win exercise. after all, the lateral delts are responsible for the abduction of the humerus, and upright rows are just that, with movement also happening at the elbows as well, calling other muscle into play.
barbell rows w/ elbows flared out target the post. delts, but you’re able to use heavy weights in comparison to reverse laterals.
cable side laterals obviously target the side delts, but b/c it uses a cable, there’s constant tension on the muscle, unlike with laterals using a dumbbell.
however, if what you’ve been doing is working, then keep going.
good luck, and hope this helps 
There is the sexiest 50 year old woman in my gym. She doesn’t look much more than 30 and she is ripped.
She does a lot of dips, pull ups and pushups with just bodyweight. She can bang out several sets of 10 pull ups. Used to be a gymnast. The only direct shoulder work I see her doing is 25lb dumbbell presses, and 15lb lateral raises.
She does quite a bit of arm work, and has some nice yet feminine guns on her.
She avoids anything that will build up her traps because she doesn’t want to look “manly” as she puts it.
God she’s sexy. I envy her husband.
Lucky Bastard.
why dont you change your split up
chest (back)[(tris)]
back (bis)
arms
shoulders
legs
(abs/calves)
by doing either a 4,5, or 6 day split youll be able to include more intensity per bodypart and do it in a shorter amount of time also. that way you dont get wiped out for military presses after you already did whatever else you did.
im not sure how your arrangement is but you want to put heavy compounds as the first exercises and work downwards in terms of CNS involvement. so comps, free-isolation, machine isolation.
also if youve read stuff by CT and Dante as ive mentioned them earlier, they make a lot of use of other methods besides more reps such as static holds in different ROM portions. i,e 5 second holds on each part of ROM on an overhead press as closer on the last set. training to failure is of huge improtance as well and just digging in and getting that extra rep out.
[quote]shizen wrote:
Less is more for big muscle groups.
The only muscles you can really hit A LOT are small groups like, calves, forearms, abs, ext. Legs are an exception since they can handle quite a bit of volume-yet 3x a week would be max-, yet even less volume for the most part will work just as well.
So yeah I would not work my shoulders 3x a week.
I assumed you did really high reps because first your a girl-sexist w/e- second the exercises you listed are usually done in high reps with not much weight so the intensity is lower. [/quote]
Your calves are smaller than your deltoids?
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
shizen wrote:
Less is more for big muscle groups.
The only muscles you can really hit A LOT are small groups like, calves, forearms, abs, ext. Legs are an exception since they can handle quite a bit of volume-yet 3x a week would be max-, yet even less volume for the most part will work just as well.
So yeah I would not work my shoulders 3x a week.
I assumed you did really high reps because first your a girl-sexist w/e- second the exercises you listed are usually done in high reps with not much weight so the intensity is lower.
Your calves are smaller than your deltoids? [/quote]
Not even Markus Rühl managed that feat.
[quote]AmandaSC wrote:
Is it that less is more when it comes to shoulders or is hitting them three times per week good for growth?
[/quote]
For shoulders : Yes. The anterior part is worked during most pressing movements, the posterior part is worked with alot of pulling movements, so there’s really no need to do a ton of direct shoulder exercises.
Just stick to military presses and side lateral raises and that should be enough for most people (if you do alot of horizontal pushing/pulling).
I do push presses for shoulders. Allows me to do more weight, and really overload the shoulders. Has worked wonders for me.
If this hasn’t been said already, hope it helps.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I am thinking that I should just continue doing shoulders twice per week. It has been working well so far so why mess with things? Maybe I just wanted an excuse to go to the gym five days per week instead of four ; )
IMO shoulders are the most overtrained bodypart on most trainees.
I find it strange no one has asked about your diet? Are you getting enough calories and protein? How is your sleep and stress management?
I would stick to the tried and true shoulder movements:
Dumbell overhead presses–perform these one arm at a time, while flexing the tricep hard. Hits the delts AND the tris in one fell swoop.
Upright barbell or dumbell rows with a grip where your thumbs are approx as wide as your humeral heads.
Barbell or dumbell push presses. Can be performed “Tabata style” for increased overall metabolic effect.
Dumbell Ahrens presses: Begin the the palms facing towards you, rotate the palms forward as you ascend while pushing the 'bells outward to the finish position. Sort of like a combo press/lateral movement.
Lastly, cable or dumbell side laterals. I mention these last as they’re the least effective in terms of overall growth.
If you plan on training for the long haul, you have to protect your shoulders. If you must specialize on them, I’d recommend utilizing a high frequency (i.e. 2-4x/week) for only 4-6 weeks, maybe twice a year.
Otherwise train them directly once per week and consider choosing chest and back movements based on their carryover to the delts.
Example: dips for chest, prioritize rowing for back, etc.
Good luck.
[quote]AmandaSC wrote:
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I am thinking that I should just continue doing shoulders twice per week. It has been working well so far so why mess with things? Maybe I just wanted an excuse to go to the gym five days per week instead of four ; )[/quote]
lol i go 6. fuck it, its the summer i got tons of time so who cares. im hoping i can keep it at it once i go back to school and pick up a job again. i did 4 last semester but im really liking 6.