Shoulder>Chest Problem!

Training
21

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
pec dominant benchers don’t have big pecs benching 195, I don’t give a fuck how hard they think about them while they’re doing it. sorry to be the ass in this thread but I feel like you’re missing forest for the trees.

also, guys, if he’s doing dc he’s not going to be doing flies since you can’t add alot of weight to flies over a short period of time which is what dc programming wants you to do. pre exhausting before your chest exercise will bring down the weight you’ll be able to use fucking with the dc program. you can do that but you won’t be doing dc anymore.

mr.popular is correct in that you should use form or pick a movement that allows the target muscle to be stretched at the greatest range of motion (or the ROM where it is worked the most). if you’ve studied dc properly you’d know that flat benching isn’t recommended as a chest exercise anyways as there is a high risk involved compared to other exercises. also if you’re doing the chest stretch properly that will make or break your chest growth on this program.

okay I’m done posting in this thread

please go to the IM board and use the search function if you plan on continuing with dc[/quote]

I’m well aware that pre-exhausting and flys have no place in DC, they are simple questions and all advice given has been helpful for future reference. You seem to think im unqualified for DC but its a solid routine and has given me the best results out of any previous regimine. All my lifts have gone up in all areas minus the obvious, and im consistently beating the log book. So why change it over one part?

[quote]mr popular wrote:
The key for me when it comes to developing a greater focus on the target muscle group, that I think a lot of people overlook, is figuring out what muscle is getting the greatest stretch at the bottom of the movement.

It’s not uncommon to see guys complain that their shoulders take over their bench press, or their triceps, and then they upload a video and you can immediately see why. If your hands are in too close and your triceps are getting a good stretch at the bottom of your bench, they are going to get quite a bit of stimulation.

If you aren’t moving your shoulders or arms correctly, or not holding your chest up, or bringing the bar down to the wrong place, it’s very easy to get a stretch in the front deltoids that immediately wakes them up to take a brunt of the work.

You have to remember that the whole point of bodybuilding exercises is to fully stretch and contract muscles… just because you’re doing a bench press doesn’t mean your body knows it is supposed to be building your pecs. It’s going to give the greatest stimulation to whatever muscle is getting the fullest stretch and contraction during the movement.

This is the same reason you don’t fully lock out your elbows when doing pull ups or barbell rows… because then you are just asking your biceps to get more involved.

This is also the reason why I don’t believe much in things like pre-exhausting a muscle, because you haven’t resolved the real issue.

Long post for some pretty simple advice: tweak your form in the bench press so that you are stretching (not excessively) your pectorals at the bottom of the movement, and not your shoulders.

How would you stretch out your pecs without the barbell, just using a pole or a doorway? Or with no assistance, just swinging your arms? Try to imitate that feeling under the bar. In a bodybuilding bench press, the shoulders move back to make way for the chest as the bar descends, so that most of the stretch and squeeze is on the pecs.

You don’t want to try and get some crazy stretch and rip your pec off the fucking bone, but you do need to tell your body that the chest muscles are the ones taking it through this movement.[/quote]

Wow did this help a lot! I had Low Incline Bench Partial reps this morning and i realized just how much my front delts were stretching and fatigued by the end of the set. so I re positioned the low point of the barbell and adjusted my elbows and it was gone and before I knew it my upper chest began doing the work. Definitely going the readjust my decline position as well when it arises. Thank you for the advice, much appreciated.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]TROMAusmc wrote:
Do you know of any mind muscle connection techniques as for as pecs go?
[/quote]

Flex them as hard as you can regularly. Try to flex ONLY the pecs. Don’t put your hands together in front of you, either. That invites your delts to join in.

Cable flyes, as Bonezy said. Prolly the best pec iso movement ever, especially if you keep your shoulders pinned back.

http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/806

http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/1213

I’ve learned so much from John Meadows in the past six months, I feel like I should send him a check. Not going to, but it’s the thought that counts, right?[/quote]

I think im defintely going to invest in that band. Pretty damn ingenious!

22

Because DC is for more experienced bodybuilders, which means… people who know to fire their pecs when doing a chest exercise on a DC routine. The simple fact that you don’t recognize your weakness means you’re not ready for Doggcrapp.

Give your chest the needed attention, just do a split and learn how to isolate your pecs.

23

Good advice in here, although I’d add to Trav’s comments that DC isn’t against pre-exhaust. Dante himself recommended pec dec (gasp!) to pump up the chest (something like 20-30 reps, not to failure or anything), just so that the pecs are “activated” more (better mind-muscle connection) for those who need it.

People get the wrong impression of DC sometimes, thinking that Dante’s completely against conventional wisdom. This is why you have to be advanced to do it, not just advanced as in heavy loads, but as in knowing your own body. Only a fool carries on with an exercise month after month in the same way trying to add load even though the target muscle isn’t getting adequate tension.

I’d recommend the op simply doing a more “standard” routine (i.e. doing most exercises for bodyparts each time you train them) before going full force into DC.

To add: my pecs didn’t get anywhere until I really concentrated on the negative contraction part of pressing movements (e.g. 2-3 second negatives, then explode up, and keep tension on target muscle 100% of the time which could mean only doing a certain ROM). Not saying be anal about it to the point of not progressing in load, but if you have a pretty sloppy set of 6 reps where you’re just trying to move the weight from A to B, on your second (or maybe 3rd set), try to get good controlled set. Maybe just stick to straight/pyramid sets for chest as opposed to rest pause (e.g. 6 on first set, reduce load by 10-15% and get another 8-10 reps). Set up is very important too as has been mentioned, slight flare in elbows, take bar down to above nipples rather than below (unless doing declines). You may even get better stimulation/tension from machines.

24

I’m pretty sure dante’s pec dec is a chest widowmaker (20-30 rep straight set) after your main sets not before. also it’s meant to bring up a lagging chest in very advanced bodybuilders that are on the 3way and have already exhausted the get strong as fuck on your bread and butter presses, not your average joe trainee on the 2 way. when I say very advanced I mean npc competitors ie. don’t add pec dec to your dc 2 way unless you’re using 315+ for you incline rp set but have no pecs. or just don’t do dc, that would be your best option to be honest.

suck my balls its_just_me! :stuck_out_tongue:

25

Don’t think it’s been said already so I’m just gonna throw it out there; a video would be an immense help.

Doesn’t have to be a max effort, just a weight that woiuld challenge you for a few reps.

26

You both are very right as far as DC goes, and I also see a the problem not only in the area of not having the ability to activate my pecs but also the lack of volume or time under tension for my chest. Obviously I was on a normal split for roughly 2 and a half years prior to DC, I stuck to DC so well because everything grew with the exception of my chest. Would you recommend a 5x5 split? Something like Max OT? Or OVT because it deals with 5x5 supersets dealing with a decent volume of work per muscle group.

27

[quote]trav123456 wrote:

suck my balls its_just_me! :P[/quote]

Tempting but no thanks :slight_smile:

28

[quote]TROMAusmc wrote:
Would you recommend a 5x5 split? Something like Max OT? Or OVT because it deals with 5x5 supersets dealing with a decent volume of work per muscle group.[/quote]

IMO, no need to go to extremes (especially if what you were doing before seemed to help you progress mostly). You were on a 2 way split, so the nearest to that would be a 3 way split. Only reason to do it this way is the slightly more volume per bodypart (which means having to split it up a little bit more to make session volume manageable). As a lifter who’s still progressing, your ability to recover from your loads will be slightly higher/faster (which means you can handle slightly more volume or maybe more frequency for exercises). As soon as loads become very advanced, IMO, that’s when “pure” DC comes into it’s own.

A split like this would be good (done 4-5 times a week, e.g. Mon/Tue/Wed/Fri/Sat):

push/pull/legs

or

chest & tris/back & bis/legs & delts

MANY ways of splitting it up - don’t get distracted by that (constantly switching things), it’s not that important (recovery, overall strength gain over time and weight gain is more important). 2-3 exercises per bodypart (more for legs/back, less for ones like arms/chest because of over-lap). For sets, as Dante often recommends, this will depend on YOUR recovery. So say for example you did 3 exercises for back (e.g. pullups/rows/deadlifts), if you were doing 3 sets for each, but you found (after not long) you feel drained, and 2 sets lets you progress faster, do 2 instead. Personally, I don’t go lower than 6 sets/bodypart/week. Principles of DC can still stand though (things like good recovery, lowish volume, blasting + cruising when needed etc)

As for chest and volume; progression always takes priority. Like mentioned before, it may only take more focus during the exercise (as Mr popular said; a good stretch in pecs at the bottom…as soon as this stretch goes away, that is the shoulders take more of the load, go directly back into positive motion of lift), and maybe a higher rep set as well (so that the pecs can take most of the load instead of other bodyparts taking over…something easier to do with “lighter” loads). When the body senses a really heavy load, it’s first priority is to stop it dropping on you and killing you lol…this means use whatever muscles are available to take the heat (e.g. shoulders) - it doesn’t know that you are trying to target the pecs. A heavy/“sloppy” set of say 6-8 (to activate and enable higher loads on higher rep sets), followed by a lighter and really controlled set or two of 8-10 is a great idea. So get the setup right (bodybuilding bench press, maybe leave a little gap between chest and bar, don’t lock out, constant/controlled/slowed tension on pecs especially on negative, feel the pecs strain/stretch at the bottom, no bouncing/momentum, maybe alter the grip). The way I look at it is this; the first set is your “ego”/activator set, followed by the more controlled/stretched one(s) to properly fatigue the pecs :slight_smile:

Always remember that your diet is the enabler; no routine will allow good strength progression if you aren’t eating enough. Keep your goals firmly fixed in mind - don’t get distracted with recomping or really lean gains (unless holding weight), just lose the fat, or build the mass. Each phase will be preceded by a “holding” phase (after dieting, hold the weight for some weeks, likewise with bulking, hold the weight for months before switching gears). If you don’t do this, the bulk/cut cycle won’t lead you very far (as soon as you switch to fat loss, if you haven’t maintained a strength level for some time via adequate calories, that is, solidify your strength gains, you probably will lose it…along with muscle as soon as bodyweight drops).

Wow, I’ve got to stop posting these books lol

29

^I fully endorse that post, well said

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]trav123456 wrote:

suck my balls its_just_me! :P[/quote]

Tempting but no thanks :)[/quote]

:frowning:

30

^ Aww thanks, feeling all appreciated and stuff now :slight_smile: Btw, I prefer a bit of vinegar with my balls (no homo)

31

[quote]TROMAusmc wrote:
You both are very right as far as DC goes, and I also see a the problem not only in the area of not having the ability to activate my pecs but also the lack of volume or time under tension for my chest. Obviously I was on a normal split for roughly 2 and a half years prior to DC, I stuck to DC so well because everything grew with the exception of my chest. Would you recommend a 5x5 split? Something like Max OT? Or OVT because it deals with 5x5 supersets dealing with a decent volume of work per muscle group.[/quote]

I wouldn’t advise you to do anyone else’s program at all. You should know your body well enough now to follow your own training schedule.

If you were truly lost I would just recommend sticking with the basic bodybuilding exercises (Squat, bench press, barbell row, pull up/down, barbell press, barbell curl), and do a couple more exercises after the bread and butter stuff, hitting everything 1.5 to 2 times a week (probably a 3 or 4-way split would work best).

32

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]TROMAusmc wrote:
Do you know of any mind muscle connection techniques as for as pecs go?
[/quote]

Flex them as hard as you can regularly. Try to flex ONLY the pecs. Don’t put your hands together in front of you, either. That invites your delts to join in.

Cable flyes, as Bonezy said. Prolly the best pec iso movement ever, especially if you keep your shoulders pinned back.

http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/806

http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/1213

I’ve learned so much from John Meadows in the past six months, I feel like I should send him a check. Not going to, but it’s the thought that counts, right?[/quote]

Yes it is the thought!! ahahaha…

33

a friend of mine always had a problem developing his chest, he always had a stronger bench than me but his chest looked smaller, he hit 315 about 6 months ago and im only hitting 300 for my 1rmax now but my chest has always looked bigger, he said that he has started doing alot of pushups on off days and even between bench sets and he has seen major improvements in chest size

hope this helps