Should We Drop Minimum Wage?

[reddog6376]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs?

Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

So are you telling me if you owned the store on the opposite corner to my store, that you would see no benefit in collaborating? It would be a huge benefit to us both.

You have yet to explain how these misguided social programs could not be offset by increasing prices. You have 3 people in the store you increase the pay by two dollars an hour that is 6 bucks an hour total, if you increase your gas price by a penny (which your competition has to do) then where is the down side.
[/quote]

If we were owned businesses across the street, my objective would not be to collaborate with you, it would be to crush you. I would do every legal thing I could to take your customers and drive you out of business so that mine could grow.

Where is the down side? First, if I raise my prices a penny, my customers will go somewhere else to buy gas. Now I have less revenue coming in and I also have to pay $6/hr more in wages.

Guess what, it is no longer profitable to stay in business, so I close my doors and 3 people are unemployed. They now have to apply for benefits and possibly welfare, which takes people out of the “contributing to society” column and puts them into the “living off of society” column.

How in the hell is society helped by forcing me to pay more in wages? Let me guess. Because this is a gov’t mandate, everyone has to increase their prices so my customers won’t leave, right? Ever hear of inflation? That’s where consumers have to pay more money for the same goods and services,

If every business has to increase their prices to pay more wages, employees making those wages have to now pay increased prices for everything they buy, so in real terms, they are no further ahead and in fact may be further behind.

Your comments are symptomatic of why we need financial education in high schools. The fact that some one could get through life and hold such economic ignorance does not bode well for our country. Do yourself (& your bank account) a favor and get some financial knowledge.

[reddog6376]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard[/quote]

Thank you for making my point. If they are better than what they had at home, than it is a step up for them and they are thankful to have it so good.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

I think you are confusing livable and standard of living. If you do not die, that means it is livable.

I hate to be the one to explain this to you but the key word is standard, hope that helps
[/quote]

Actually your key word is livable as highlighted above in your statement. Standard of living is an arbitrary idea. And in fact is very personal thing, so much so that government should not take that into their hands to determine.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard[/quote]

Being more efficient, which leads to high productivity is what makes it possible to have a high standard of living. So, going ahead and paying for unskilled workers to do the menial jobs (at a fair price, which if you still have not figured out what fair means it is where both parties voluntarily come up with their own number) would make it more efficient for the skilled workers to do what they are specialized in, making everything better off.

I hate giving examples, but lets see if I can help you understand. I own a company. This company hypothetically owns rental properties and apartment complexes. Now, I could possibly be a one man show. I could do everything from start to finish: look at the trends of property demand, look for the properties, type the paper work, go over the paper work, transfer the title, advertise the property, find the people to live in the property, take care of the property, type the lease papers, go over the lease papers, show the property, do the credit checks on the people, collect the payments, make coffee, get lunch, fix the printers, fix the fax, clean the office, do random errands, and clean the toilets.

Or I could do what I am specialized at: finding money, studying trends, marketing, and negotiating. Which would allow me to do 100’s of more transactions than what I could do if I tried to do everything. With the four things I do through out the day I can pay over 75 people regularly, the people that loan me money to the people that sweep the floors. The problem is that I have the couple of college kids who do advertising that are on the low end of the company sweeping the floors and running errands. The errands that are ran could be done by any kid with a bike, but one the advertisers who are no doubt important could be doing more things that are considered advertising instead of the sweeping and errand running.

So since I do only the things I am good at, everyone makes more money because I let the skilled workers do their specialty and me mine so I am able to do the process more times per period. This also has a second side effect, since my company makes more money I spend more money, my employees spend more money, and I give to charity more money. Yet there is a hitch in the system. The lower level guys in my company could be focused more on their specialty (which would give my company more exposure and make even more money for everyone) if I could only hire for someone under the minimum wage to do the menial jobs.

As I see it, if I was a kid I would have no problem riding my bike after school and on Saturday for money. And if someone offered me money to sweep their floors I sure would. Hell, I remember when my parents would send me over to sweep the floors at the local barbershop and was paid with a hair cut.

[pittbulll]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard

Being more efficient, which leads to high productivity is what makes it possible to have a high standard of living. So, going ahead and paying for unskilled workers to do the menial jobs (at a fair price, which if you still have not figured out what fair means it is where both parties voluntarily come up with their own number) would make it more efficient for the skilled workers to do what they are specialized in, making everything better off.

I hate giving examples, but lets see if I can help you understand. I own a company. This company hypothetically owns rental properties and apartment complexes. Now, I could possibly be a one man show. I could do everything from start to finish: look at the trends of property demand, look for the properties, type the paper work, go over the paper work, transfer the title, advertise the property, find the people to live in the property, take care of the property, type the lease papers, go over the lease papers, show the property, do the credit checks on the people, collect the payments, make coffee, get lunch, fix the printers, fix the fax, clean the office, do random errands, and clean the toilets.

Or I could do what I am specialized at: finding money, studying trends, marketing, and negotiating. Which would allow me to do 100’s of more transactions than what I could do if I tried to do everything. With the four things I do through out the day I can pay over 75 people regularly, the people that loan me money to the people that sweep the floors. The problem is that I have the couple of college kids who do advertising that are on the low end of the company sweeping the floors and running errands. The errands that are ran could be done by any kid with a bike, but one the advertisers who are no doubt important could be doing more things that are considered advertising instead of the sweeping and errand running.

So since I do only the things I am good at, everyone makes more money because I let the skilled workers do their specialty and me mine so I am able to do the process more times per period. This also has a second side effect, since my company makes more money I spend more money, my employees spend more money, and I give to charity more money. Yet there is a hitch in the system. The lower level guys in my company could be focused more on their specialty (which would give my company more exposure and make even more money for everyone) if I could only hire for someone under the minimum wage to do the menial jobs.

As I see it, if I was a kid I would have no problem riding my bike after school and on Saturday for money. And if someone offered me money to sweep their floors I sure would. Hell, I remember when my parents would send me over to sweep the floors at the local barbershop and was paid with a hair cut.[/quote]

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

[pittbulll]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

I think you are confusing livable and standard of living. If you do not die, that means it is livable.

I hate to be the one to explain this to you but the key word is standard, hope that helps

Actually your key word is livable as highlighted above in your statement. Standard of living is an arbitrary idea. And in fact is very personal thing, so much so that government should not take that into their hands to determine. [/quote]

I am sorry you can not grasp a picture that is a little larger than you are used to dealing with. I am not going to argue semantics with you. But if you can grasp my statement I would love to debate with you

[pittbulll]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard

Thank you for making my point. If they are better than what they had at home, than it is a step up for them and they are thankful to have it so good.

[/quote]

They may be , but is America ? We are the United States of America, not Mexico. If you are pro one world Government I can understand your point. I though I was dealing with some one that was pro America

[pittbulll]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs?

Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

So are you telling me if you owned the store on the opposite corner to my store, that you would see no benefit in collaborating? It would be a huge benefit to us both.

You have yet to explain how these misguided social programs could not be offset by increasing prices. You have 3 people in the store you increase the pay by two dollars an hour that is 6 bucks an hour total, if you increase your gas price by a penny (which your competition has to do) then where is the down side.

If we were owned businesses across the street, my objective would not be to collaborate with you, it would be to crush you. I would do every legal thing I could to take your customers and drive you out of business so that mine could grow.

Where is the down side? First, if I raise my prices a penny, my customers will go somewhere else to buy gas. Now I have less revenue coming in and I also have to pay $6/hr more in wages.

Guess what, it is no longer profitable to stay in business, so I close my doors and 3 people are unemployed. They now have to apply for benefits and possibly welfare, which takes people out of the “contributing to society” column and puts them into the “living off of society” column.

How in the hell is society helped by forcing me to pay more in wages? Let me guess. Because this is a gov’t mandate, everyone has to increase their prices so my customers won’t leave, right? Ever hear of inflation? That’s where consumers have to pay more money for the same goods and services,

If every business has to increase their prices to pay more wages, employees making those wages have to now pay increased prices for everything they buy, so in real terms, they are no further ahead and in fact may be further behind.

Your comments are symptomatic of why we need financial education in high schools. The fact that some one could get through life and hold such economic ignorance does not bode well for our country. Do yourself (& your bank account) a favor and get some financial knowledge.
[/quote]

[pittbulll]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs?

Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

So are you telling me if you owned the store on the opposite corner to my store, that you would see no benefit in collaborating? It would be a huge benefit to us both.

You have yet to explain how these misguided social programs could not be offset by increasing prices. You have 3 people in the store you increase the pay by two dollars an hour that is 6 bucks an hour total, if you increase your gas price by a penny (which your competition has to do) then where is the down side.

If we were owned businesses across the street, my objective would not be to collaborate with you, it would be to crush you. I would do every legal thing I could to take your customers and drive you out of business so that mine could grow.

Where is the down side? First, if I raise my prices a penny, my customers will go somewhere else to buy gas. Now I have less revenue coming in and I also have to pay $6/hr more in wages.

Guess what, it is no longer profitable to stay in business, so I close my doors and 3 people are unemployed. They now have to apply for benefits and possibly welfare, which takes people out of the “contributing to society” column and puts them into the “living off of society” column.

How in the hell is society helped by forcing me to pay more in wages? Let me guess. Because this is a gov’t mandate, everyone has to increase their prices so my customers won’t leave, right? Ever hear of inflation? That’s where consumers have to pay more money for the same goods and services,

If every business has to increase their prices to pay more wages, employees making those wages have to now pay increased prices for everything they buy, so in real terms, they are no further ahead and in fact may be further behind.

Your comments are symptomatic of why we need financial education in high schools. The fact that some one could get through life and hold such economic ignorance does not bode well for our country. Do yourself (& your bank account) a favor and get some financial knowledge.
[/quote]

You would learn crushing competition sounds good but is not realistic. You may see your self as a real Dynamo but I doubt everybody agrees with you

Well you could raise your gas prices or charge more for your large fountain drink, where ever you decide would be best. But every convenient store has to comply with all the same rules. So if you can not fend for your self, you would be a failure.

When you go out of business, I win. I will come buy your store at fire sale price and hire two more people, because I heard you were under staffed and customers were tired of waiting.

Inflation will happen; right now inflation is covering the top one percent of wage earners pay increases. Just like it would cover the bottom fifty percent

You next question is covered by inflation.

What makes you think my bank account is less than yours ? I must admit, I do not do my own books. But as some one else said the people that do my books do them better than I can. Where is the down side.

As a little criticism I would recommend some critical reasoning skills. I do not know if they offer College classes on that but I recommend it all the same

[reddog6376]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard

Thank you for making my point. If they are better than what they had at home, than it is a step up for them and they are thankful to have it so good.

They may be , but is America ? We are the United States of America, not Mexico. If you are pro one world Government I can understand your point. I though I was dealing with some one that was pro America [/quote]

Oh, I am. I just think it’s asinine to bemoan the plight of poor immigrants here when they have it better than they would have if they stayed home. If they don’t like the conditions, they can pack their shit and leave.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard

Being more efficient, which leads to high productivity is what makes it possible to have a high standard of living. So, going ahead and paying for unskilled workers to do the menial jobs (at a fair price, which if you still have not figured out what fair means it is where both parties voluntarily come up with their own number) would make it more efficient for the skilled workers to do what they are specialized in, making everything better off.

I hate giving examples, but lets see if I can help you understand. I own a company. This company hypothetically owns rental properties and apartment complexes. Now, I could possibly be a one man show. I could do everything from start to finish: look at the trends of property demand, look for the properties, type the paper work, go over the paper work, transfer the title, advertise the property, find the people to live in the property, take care of the property, type the lease papers, go over the lease papers, show the property, do the credit checks on the people, collect the payments, make coffee, get lunch, fix the printers, fix the fax, clean the office, do random errands, and clean the toilets.

Or I could do what I am specialized at: finding money, studying trends, marketing, and negotiating. Which would allow me to do 100’s of more transactions than what I could do if I tried to do everything. With the four things I do through out the day I can pay over 75 people regularly, the people that loan me money to the people that sweep the floors. The problem is that I have the couple of college kids who do advertising that are on the low end of the company sweeping the floors and running errands. The errands that are ran could be done by any kid with a bike, but one the advertisers who are no doubt important could be doing more things that are considered advertising instead of the sweeping and errand running.

So since I do only the things I am good at, everyone makes more money because I let the skilled workers do their specialty and me mine so I am able to do the process more times per period. This also has a second side effect, since my company makes more money I spend more money, my employees spend more money, and I give to charity more money. Yet there is a hitch in the system. The lower level guys in my company could be focused more on their specialty (which would give my company more exposure and make even more money for everyone) if I could only hire for someone under the minimum wage to do the menial jobs.

As I see it, if I was a kid I would have no problem riding my bike after school and on Saturday for money. And if someone offered me money to sweep their floors I sure would. Hell, I remember when my parents would send me over to sweep the floors at the local barbershop and was paid with a hair cut.

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

[/quote]

Sorry to break it to you but Ronald Reagan did not bring with him a free market. All those people can say all they want, and throw a few pieces of legislation around but you have to look at what did as a whole.

Yes, and regulating it and making it more expensive is not going create more industry. Think about it the higher the price of a product the less of your product you can make, the less profit and the less expansion.

[reddog6376]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs?

Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

So are you telling me if you owned the store on the opposite corner to my store, that you would see no benefit in collaborating? It would be a huge benefit to us both.

You have yet to explain how these misguided social programs could not be offset by increasing prices. You have 3 people in the store you increase the pay by two dollars an hour that is 6 bucks an hour total, if you increase your gas price by a penny (which your competition has to do) then where is the down side.

If we were owned businesses across the street, my objective would not be to collaborate with you, it would be to crush you. I would do every legal thing I could to take your customers and drive you out of business so that mine could grow.

Where is the down side? First, if I raise my prices a penny, my customers will go somewhere else to buy gas. Now I have less revenue coming in and I also have to pay $6/hr more in wages.

Guess what, it is no longer profitable to stay in business, so I close my doors and 3 people are unemployed. They now have to apply for benefits and possibly welfare, which takes people out of the “contributing to society” column and puts them into the “living off of society” column.

How in the hell is society helped by forcing me to pay more in wages? Let me guess. Because this is a gov’t mandate, everyone has to increase their prices so my customers won’t leave, right? Ever hear of inflation? That’s where consumers have to pay more money for the same goods and services,

If every business has to increase their prices to pay more wages, employees making those wages have to now pay increased prices for everything they buy, so in real terms, they are no further ahead and in fact may be further behind.

Your comments are symptomatic of why we need financial education in high schools. The fact that some one could get through life and hold such economic ignorance does not bode well for our country. Do yourself (& your bank account) a favor and get some financial knowledge.

You would learn crushing competition sounds good but is not realistic. You may see your self as a real Dynamo but I doubt everybody agrees with you

Well you could raise your gas prices or charge more for your large fountain drink, where ever you decide would be best. But every convenient store has to comply with all the same rules. So if you can not fend for your self, you would be a failure.

When you go out of business, I win. I will come buy your store at fire sale price and hire two more people, because I heard you were under staffed and customers were tired of waiting.

Inflation will happen; right now inflation is covering the top one percent of wage earners pay increases. Just like it would cover the bottom fifty percent

You next question is covered by inflation.

What makes you think my bank account is less than yours ? I must admit, I do not do my own books. But as some one else said the people that do my books do them better than I can. Where is the down side.

As a little criticism I would recommend some critical reasoning skills. I do not know if they offer College classes on that but I recommend it all the same

[/quote]

“Well you could raise your gas prices or charge more for your large fountain drink, where ever you decide would be best. But every convenient store has to comply with all the same rules”. You just aren’t getting it. If everybody has to pay more for goods and services so that employers can pay higher wages (because of gov’t mandates) then the employees who now make those wages also have a higher cost of living because prices are higher and in real terms their standard of living has not increased with their wages. So you have accomplished absolutely nothing.

BTW, way back when I graduated college, a class in logical reasoning was required. THe flaws in your logic are:

1. Appeal to emotion. You think minimum wage helps the poor, therefore minimum wage is a good thing.
2. Questionable cause. You assert a living wage will increase jobs, but offer no evidence as to how.
3. Straw man: “When you go out of business, I win. I will come buy your store at fire sale price and hire two more people, because I heard you were under staffed and customers were tired of waiting.” You would be under the same economic constraints as me and would suffer from the same lack of profits.
4. Factual error. “Inflation will happen; right now inflation is covering the top one percent of wage earners pay increases. Just like it would cover the bottom fifty percent.” Inflation affect the lower incomes more as a higher percentage of their income goes to necessities.

Give it up kid, you have no idea what you’re taking about and your lack of real world experience just shines brighter with every post.

[GhorigTheBeefy]

Ahhh I love these financial/political conversations…they just get so heated. The best part is when the insults about intelligence are being hurled. One person claims the other is retarded while their arguments/insults degrade into some sort of barely comprehensible grunting. Everyone, take a deep breath and relax. If I have to read one more red-faced keyboard punching tard outburst I just might shit my pants with laughter. Also, it doesn’t make your opinion look any more valid.

To help this thread get back on track I’ll try to lay down a few truths.
1. Minimum wage is evil
2. Minimum wage is a key player in the ruining of the US economy
3. Anyone who supports minimum wage doesn’t have a fully functional brain

This has been another Public Service Announcement.

[orion]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

[/quote]

You seem to believe that there is a limited amount of jobs.

There isnt.

There is however a limited amount of jobs people are willing to create and take when there is welfare and minimum wages.

So you are really complaining about a problem your attitude has created and what is your answer?

More government intervention.

And what if you get your way and that creates even more problems, what will your answer be then?

Undoubtedly even more intervention.

[pittbulll]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs?

Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

So are you telling me if you owned the store on the opposite corner to my store, that you would see no benefit in collaborating? It would be a huge benefit to us both.

You have yet to explain how these misguided social programs could not be offset by increasing prices. You have 3 people in the store you increase the pay by two dollars an hour that is 6 bucks an hour total, if you increase your gas price by a penny (which your competition has to do) then where is the down side.

If we were owned businesses across the street, my objective would not be to collaborate with you, it would be to crush you. I would do every legal thing I could to take your customers and drive you out of business so that mine could grow.

Where is the down side? First, if I raise my prices a penny, my customers will go somewhere else to buy gas. Now I have less revenue coming in and I also have to pay $6/hr more in wages.

Guess what, it is no longer profitable to stay in business, so I close my doors and 3 people are unemployed. They now have to apply for benefits and possibly welfare, which takes people out of the “contributing to society” column and puts them into the “living off of society” column.

How in the hell is society helped by forcing me to pay more in wages? Let me guess. Because this is a gov’t mandate, everyone has to increase their prices so my customers won’t leave, right? Ever hear of inflation? That’s where consumers have to pay more money for the same goods and services,

If every business has to increase their prices to pay more wages, employees making those wages have to now pay increased prices for everything they buy, so in real terms, they are no further ahead and in fact may be further behind.

Your comments are symptomatic of why we need financial education in high schools. The fact that some one could get through life and hold such economic ignorance does not bode well for our country. Do yourself (& your bank account) a favor and get some financial knowledge.

You would learn crushing competition sounds good but is not realistic. You may see your self as a real Dynamo but I doubt everybody agrees with you

Well you could raise your gas prices or charge more for your large fountain drink, where ever you decide would be best. But every convenient store has to comply with all the same rules. So if you can not fend for your self, you would be a failure.

When you go out of business, I win. I will come buy your store at fire sale price and hire two more people, because I heard you were under staffed and customers were tired of waiting.

Inflation will happen; right now inflation is covering the top one percent of wage earners pay increases. Just like it would cover the bottom fifty percent

You next question is covered by inflation.

What makes you think my bank account is less than yours ? I must admit, I do not do my own books. But as some one else said the people that do my books do them better than I can. Where is the down side.

As a little criticism I would recommend some critical reasoning skills. I do not know if they offer College classes on that but I recommend it all the same

“Well you could raise your gas prices or charge more for your large fountain drink, where ever you decide would be best. But every convenient store has to comply with all the same rules”. You just aren’t getting it. If everybody has to pay more for goods and services so that employers can pay higher wages (because of gov’t mandates) then the employees who now make those wages also have a higher cost of living because prices are higher and in real terms their standard of living has not increased with their wages. So you have accomplished absolutely nothing.

BTW, way back when I graduated college, a class in logical reasoning was required. THe flaws in your logic are:

1. Appeal to emotion. You think minimum wage helps the poor, therefore minimum wage is a good thing.
2. Questionable cause. You assert a living wage will increase jobs, but offer no evidence as to how.
3. Straw man: “When you go out of business, I win. I will come buy your store at fire sale price and hire two more people, because I heard you were under staffed and customers were tired of waiting.” You would be under the same economic constraints as me and would suffer from the same lack of profits.
4. Factual error. “Inflation will happen; right now inflation is covering the top one percent of wage earners pay increases. Just like it would cover the bottom fifty percent.” Inflation affect the lower incomes more as a higher percentage of their income goes to necessities.

Give it up kid, you have no idea what you’re taking about and your lack of real world experience just shines brighter with every post.
[/quote]

Thanks for the complement; I have always felt young at heart

It is not a flaw in my reasoning because I disagree with you. My reasoning is sound. I am trying to get to your reasoning; you just make statements that are not backed up with reasoning. Even though I agree with some of your statements

The reason I think minimum wage is not emotion, it is basic common sense give the poor more money and they can live better.

I believe you misunderstood me , I did not assert that raising minimum wage would create jobs , but on the other hand I do not believe it would cost America jobs either.

If you can not run the store with your present profits, you will have to raise your prices, it is very simple.

You are right inflation affects the poor more than the rich just as the lack of money affects the poor more

I know there are schools of thought that disagrees with this philosophy but letâ??s say there are 10 people in our community and $100 right now one gets a dime, two get a dollar,
Three get five dollars, three get ten dollars and one gets fifty two and ninety cents.

The guy making fifty two ninety is smarter than all the rest, he tells the people in the middle and upper middle that if we treat the poor right it will cost us all a lot of money.

And that the best we can do for the poor is under pay them and make them pay more for goods and services.

[pittbulll]

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

You seem to believe that there is a limited amount of jobs.

There isnt.

There is however a limited amount of jobs people are willing to create and take when there is welfare and minimum wages.

So you are really complaining about a problem your attitude has created and what is your answer?

More government intervention.

And what if you get your way and that creates even more problems, what will your answer be then?

Undoubtedly even more intervention.

[/quote]

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

[pittbulll]

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
Ahhh I love these financial/political conversations…they just get so heated. The best part is when the insults about intelligence are being hurled. One person claims the other is retarded while their arguments/insults degrade into some sort of barely comprehensible grunting. Everyone, take a deep breath and relax. If I have to read one more red-faced keyboard punching tard outburst I just might shit my pants with laughter. Also, it doesn’t make your opinion look any more valid.

To help this thread get back on track I’ll try to lay down a few truths.
1. Minimum wage is evil
2. Minimum wage is a key player in the ruining of the US economy
3. Anyone who supports minimum wage doesn’t have a fully functional brain

This has been another Public Service Announcement.

[/quote]

I would love to debate you, but all you have stated was rhetoric. Where is your reasoning?

[reddog6376]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Thanks for the complement; I have always felt young at heart

It is not a flaw in my reasoning because I disagree with you. My reasoning is sound. I am trying to get to your reasoning; you just make statements that are not backed up with reasoning. Even though I agree with some of your statements

The reason I think minimum wage is not emotion, it is basic common sense give the poor more money and they can live better.[/quote]
No, they won’t because now everything costs more and in real terms their standard of living HAS NOT CHANGED. That is common sense.

I believe you misunderstood me , I did not assert that raising minimum wage would create jobs , but on the other hand I do not believe it would cost America jobs either.

Why do you think companies currently take their jobs overseas? Fewer gov’t regulations and CHEAPER LABOR. To make your argument you have to suspend reality.

If you can not run the store with your present profits, you will have to raise your prices, it is very simple.

You are right inflation affects the poor more than the rich just as the lack of money affects the poor more

I know there are schools of thought that disagrees with this philosophy [/quote]because it’s wrong [quote]but letâ??s say there are 10 people in our community and $100 right now one gets a dime, two get a dollar,
Three get five dollars, three get ten dollars and one gets fifty two and ninety cents.

The guy making fifty two ninety is smarter than all the rest, he tells the people in the middle and upper middle that if we treat the poor right it will cost us all a lot of money.

And that the best we can do for the poor is under pay them and make them pay more for goods and services.

[/quote]

The flaw in your argument is that there is not a fixed $100 in the community. In real life the guy making $52.90 does not make that because he takes it from everyone else. He makes it because he works hard and takes risks (entrepreneurship). The guy making a dime can also (and in real life frequently does) climb into the top 1%. The economy is not a fixed-sum game. in a free market there isn’t a fixed pie that needs to be split up, there is endless opportunity to make additional pies.

[reddog6376]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

[/quote]
It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?

[pittbulll]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?
[/quote]

Are you talking cutting taxes like Bush, look what that got us? I can not believe all the jobs that flocked to America

I agree stop spending money you donâ??t have.

You must live on different planet than I. We have had social programs, but never an attempt to motivate people off the welfare dole