Should We Drop Minimum Wage?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
222

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

A livable wage would be the sum of everything it costs to live a standardized life. I know it varies from Cleveland to N.Y.C.

OK, so tell what YOU think a busboy at Denny’s in Tucson should be making. That’s right, I want you to tell us what the manager of the Denny’s on E. Speedway Blvd. in Tucson, Arizona should be required by law to pay high school dropout Horace W. Jones for bussing tables. Doesn’t have to be an exact amount but give me a range in U.S. dollars.

I would guess a livable wage in Tucson is $9 to $10 per hour. I think rents start at $500 - $600 a month[/quote]

And you fail, I can find you an apartment for a buck fifty.

223

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Producer wrote:
I wonder how someone making 3.00 an hour could survive. Are some of you not sober?

Minimum wage should be $1. Who cares if they gotta live under a bridge, they can take a bath in the restaurant’s sinks and wear the company uniform. Steal booze on the job and get drunk by the end of shift, eating out of the dumpster, getting raped for money, on a blow habbit to help her feel better about her dollar an hour job, getting cummed on all day to support her blow habbit and help pay the bills.

That was probably one of the stupidest things I have read, if this was an actual forum I would ask security to remove you and throw you into the insane asylum to be checked out for such irrationality and logic fallacy.

No one can survive on minimum wage, that is why it is ridiculous to have it, it just makes it so that those who are entering the job market cannot get a job that could benefit from the experience more than the pay, such as teenagers (if they have job experience it would be safe to say they could get a job paying more than minimum livable wages when it comes time when they have to support themselves). If someone were to be on minimum wage, they should not be “getting by” on that income alone, they would need multiple jobs, etc.

Economically speaking when having to pay for the menial jobs at such a high price it makes it so that higher skilled jobs do not get paid higher wages, not as many menial positions are available, or higher skilled workers have to take some of the slack from the lack of menial jobs being taken on by unskilled workers.

I do not think it is the STUPIDIST thing I have heard here :slight_smile:

I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

Well let’s establish a livable wage, I am one of the most frugal people I know and I still live very comfortably (weigh around 260-270 lbs, fit to do the things I want, I read books, watch movies, have plenty of friends, and I go to church and tithe.

Personally if it wasn’t for my drinking habit, my trucks, my women, and hunting. I could live off of, about a dollar a day. And as it is now, I live below the $5 a day that some World Organisation says means I’m in poverty.

So, there we go, dollar a day, a hard working person plus 10 hour days. 10 cents an hour, there is your livable wage. Now, if you want to go off my friend who is a hermit, you might know him John Michael Talbot, the man has no money, does not spend any money, does not make any money unless it goes to the Church. Yet he lives a very full life with no wants.

I must say I am impressed, but you situation is highly unusual [/quote]

Well of course it is unusual, that would be because the government has the people thinking that they have to work a job, and they have to only have one job and they can live off minimum wage of any amount.

And it is not impossible to live the way I do, hardly even considered hard. I just got over what I call the protectionist hump, I accumulated enough wealth that protectionism does not matter. So, now I have a piece of land in New Mexico that I let some cowboys graze their cattle and they give me a cow every six months. I have chickens and a dairy cow, with a one person garden to take care of the rest of the crap I eat. If my work was not all in Kansas and Arizona I’d go grab myself a wife and a few girlfriends and go live off that land for the rest of my life.

224

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

[/quote]
Right now the wages are dictated by a collaborative effort by those employing people. If we had a free market in labor, we would have to start with the lettuce picker. We would have to pay more than slave wages and it would trickle up.

Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around. America needs to start making things again.
[/quote]

No, outside of Gov’t mandates, wages are set by the employer offering a given job at a given wage and an employee accepting those terms. If no one accepts those terms, the empoyer must either raise the wage or lower the job duties until an employee accepts the offer. If no one volunteers to pick lettuce for $3/hr, then the pay goes up until the lettuce gets picked. That’s how the free market works.

Unemployment is so high for teenagers because the gov’t mandates that they be paid minumum wage. In the current job market (thanks Obama) employers can choose between a know-nothing teenager or a laid off middle manager with 15 years experience, for the same pay. Who do you think get’s the job? The gov’t mandate has priced teenagers out of the market.

225

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
[center]
…All the Gov. would say is that employers will not pay some one below a wage that would be livable. I would say each community would stipulate what it costs to live a standard life in their community…Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around…
[/center]
And raising the minimum wage will mitigate this problem?

[requisite face palm]

[/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion but I feel it is half baked and is a rhetorical response. If you feel this way explain the mechanical process how my proposed solution will mitigate the response you allege.

226

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

A livable wage would be the sum of everything it costs to live a standardized life. I know it varies from Cleveland to N.Y.C.

OK, so tell what YOU think a busboy at Denny’s in Tucson should be making. That’s right, I want you to tell us what the manager of the Denny’s on E. Speedway Blvd. in Tucson, Arizona should be required by law to pay high school dropout Horace W. Jones for bussing tables. Doesn’t have to be an exact amount but give me a range in U.S. dollars.

I would guess a livable wage in Tucson is $9 to $10 per hour. I think rents start at $500 - $600 a month

And you fail, I can find you an apartment for a buck fifty.[/quote]

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

227

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

[/quote]

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

228

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Right now the wages are dictated by a collaborative effort by those employing people. If we had a free market in labor, we would have to start with the lettuce picker. We would have to pay more than slave wages and it would trickle up.

Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around. America needs to start making things again.

No, outside of Gov’t mandates, wages are set by the employer offering a given job at a given wage and an employee accepting those terms. If no one accepts those terms, the empoyer must either raise the wage or lower the job duties until an employee accepts the offer. If no one volunteers to pick lettuce for $3/hr, then the pay goes up until the lettuce gets picked. That’s how the free market works.

Unemployment is so high for teenagers because the gov’t mandates that they be paid minumum wage. In the current job market (thanks Obama) employers can choose between a know-nothing teenager or a laid off middle manager with 15 years experience, for the same pay. Who do you think get’s the job? The gov’t mandate has priced teenagers out of the market.
[/quote]

Of course employers offer a job at a given wage. But what dictates the level of compensation is a collaborated agreement between those offering the jobs. If you own a convenient store on one corner and I on the other, our wages would probably be the same or very close. We would not even have to talk about it, but we would probably get together for beer on occasion :slight_smile:

The lettuce is picked by immigrants, legal and not. Because they would have to pay a livable wage to and American and with immigrants they can under pay and abuse them, slave labor

There are not enough jobs to other wise force employers into hiring High School kids. I know I have typed this before but in the seventies. In the Steel towns almost all adults were employed and most High School kids had jobs because if employers wanted to hire some one that is all that was available. If you wanted an adult you had to pay more

We need to start building something in America

229

[quote]Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…[/quote]

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

230

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
[center]
…All the Gov. would say is that employers will not pay some one below a wage that would be livable. I would say each community would stipulate what it costs to live a standard life in their community…Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around…
[/center]
And raising the minimum wage will mitigate this problem?

[requisite face palm]

You are entitled to your opinion but I feel it is half baked and is a rhetorical response. If you feel this way explain the mechanical process how my proposed solution will mitigate the response you allege.
[/quote]
Let’s take your proposal bolded above one step further:

Let’s let every individual decide what his or her “cost of living” is.

They can regulate their own minimum wage.

The business owners will set their maximum wage.

Somewhere in the middle they will agree and we will arrive at a free market wage.

This proposal would result in full employment. That is to say, any unemployment will be completely voluntary. Everyone who wants to work will work.

The rest will depend on charity.

231

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Right now the wages are dictated by a collaborative effort by those employing people. If we had a free market in labor, we would have to start with the lettuce picker. We would have to pay more than slave wages and it would trickle up.

Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around. America needs to start making things again.

No, outside of Gov’t mandates, wages are set by the employer offering a given job at a given wage and an employee accepting those terms. If no one accepts those terms, the empoyer must either raise the wage or lower the job duties until an employee accepts the offer. If no one volunteers to pick lettuce for $3/hr, then the pay goes up until the lettuce gets picked. That’s how the free market works.

Unemployment is so high for teenagers because the gov’t mandates that they be paid minumum wage. In the current job market (thanks Obama) employers can choose between a know-nothing teenager or a laid off middle manager with 15 years experience, for the same pay. Who do you think get’s the job? The gov’t mandate has priced teenagers out of the market.

Of course employers offer a job at a given wage. But what dictates the level of compensation is a collaborated agreement between those offering the jobs. If you own a convenient store on one corner and I on the other, our wages would probably be the same or very close. We would not even have to talk about it, but we would probably get together for beer on occasion :slight_smile:

The lettuce is picked by immigrants, legal and not. Because they would have to pay a livable wage to and American and with immigrants they can under pay and abuse them, slave labor

There are not enough jobs to other wise force employers into hiring High School kids. I know I have typed this before but in the seventies. In the Steel towns almost all adults were employed and most High School kids had jobs because if employers wanted to hire some one that is all that was available. If you wanted an adult you had to pay more

We need to start building something in America

[/quote]

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs? Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

232

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

[/quote]

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

234

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

A livable wage would be the sum of everything it costs to live a standardized life. I know it varies from Cleveland to N.Y.C.

OK, so tell what YOU think a busboy at Denny’s in Tucson should be making. That’s right, I want you to tell us what the manager of the Denny’s on E. Speedway Blvd. in Tucson, Arizona should be required by law to pay high school dropout Horace W. Jones for bussing tables. Doesn’t have to be an exact amount but give me a range in U.S. dollars.

I would guess a livable wage in Tucson is $9 to $10 per hour. I think rents start at $500 - $600 a month

And you fail, I can find you an apartment for a buck fifty.

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

[/quote]

I think you are confusing livable and standard of living. If you do not die, that means it is livable.

235

Slow down immigration and there will be higher wages. We can approach closer back to the ideal of American standard of living: best in the world

236

[quote]valiant knight wrote:
Slow down immigration and there will be higher wages. We can approach closer back to the ideal of American standard of living: best in the world[/quote]

Maybe I should start a thread on protectionism.

237

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
[center]
…All the Gov. would say is that employers will not pay some one below a wage that would be livable. I would say each community would stipulate what it costs to live a standard life in their community…Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around…
[/center]
And raising the minimum wage will mitigate this problem?

[requisite face palm]

You are entitled to your opinion but I feel it is half baked and is a rhetorical response. If you feel this way explain the mechanical process how my proposed solution will mitigate the response you allege.

Let’s take your proposal bolded above one step further:

Let’s let every individual decide what his or her “cost of living” is.

They can regulate their own minimum wage.

The business owners will set their maximum wage.

Somewhere in the middle they will agree and we will arrive at a free market wage.

This proposal would result in full employment. That is to say, any unemployment will be completely voluntary. Everyone who wants to work will work.

The rest will depend on charity.[/quote]

You have to set a living standard other wise income will dictate what that standard would be,

The only way an individual could dictate to an employer what his wage would be would be if there were more jobs than there were workers to fill them

I think in private industry, the owners of a business would set the maximum wage. But on Wall Street, we need some better way to regulate the people in control of the company. The people that do control the company usually their first priority is their compensation package and not the performance of their company.

We are back to your opinion that people could suck your dick and earn a living . That is if there were enough dicks to suck. This is where a standards need to be

Also the only way to make sure everybody has a job that wants one is to increase our exports. And I am not talking about exporting our money like we have been doing lately.

I think Charity is important, I however do not think there is enough charity to take care of the people at the bottom

238

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

A livable wage would be the sum of everything it costs to live a standardized life. I know it varies from Cleveland to N.Y.C.

OK, so tell what YOU think a busboy at Denny’s in Tucson should be making. That’s right, I want you to tell us what the manager of the Denny’s on E. Speedway Blvd. in Tucson, Arizona should be required by law to pay high school dropout Horace W. Jones for bussing tables. Doesn’t have to be an exact amount but give me a range in U.S. dollars.

I would guess a livable wage in Tucson is $9 to $10 per hour. I think rents start at $500 - $600 a month

And you fail, I can find you an apartment for a buck fifty.

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

I think you are confusing livable and standard of living. If you do not die, that means it is livable. [/quote]

I hate to be the one to explain this to you but the key word is standard, hope that helps :slight_smile:

239

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Right now the wages are dictated by a collaborative effort by those employing people. If we had a free market in labor, we would have to start with the lettuce picker. We would have to pay more than slave wages and it would trickle up.

Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around. America needs to start making things again.

No, outside of Gov’t mandates, wages are set by the employer offering a given job at a given wage and an employee accepting those terms. If no one accepts those terms, the empoyer must either raise the wage or lower the job duties until an employee accepts the offer. If no one volunteers to pick lettuce for $3/hr, then the pay goes up until the lettuce gets picked. That’s how the free market works.

Unemployment is so high for teenagers because the gov’t mandates that they be paid minumum wage. In the current job market (thanks Obama) employers can choose between a know-nothing teenager or a laid off middle manager with 15 years experience, for the same pay. Who do you think get’s the job? The gov’t mandate has priced teenagers out of the market.

Of course employers offer a job at a given wage. But what dictates the level of compensation is a collaborated agreement between those offering the jobs. If you own a convenient store on one corner and I on the other, our wages would probably be the same or very close. We would not even have to talk about it, but we would probably get together for beer on occasion :slight_smile:

The lettuce is picked by immigrants, legal and not. Because they would have to pay a livable wage to and American and with immigrants they can under pay and abuse them, slave labor

There are not enough jobs to other wise force employers into hiring High School kids. I know I have typed this before but in the seventies. In the Steel towns almost all adults were employed and most High School kids had jobs because if employers wanted to hire some one that is all that was available. If you wanted an adult you had to pay more

We need to start building something in America

If two stores across the street sell similar products/services then they are subject to the same market forces so of course what they pay in wages will be similar. There is no collaberation necessary. That’s the free market. Duh!

Immigrant workers definately skew wages. That is why they should only be allowed in if we already have full employment. We need to get control of our borders before we can address unemployment.

Why are there not enough jobs? Could it possibly be that misguided social programs (like minimum wage) drain capital out of the economy, thereby preventing that same capital from being used to created new businesses and industries that could creat new jobs? Could it be that the confiscatory tax rates in this country to support the nanny state we are building, have driven manufacturers overseas? Could it be that those of you who want to look for the gov’t for the solution to every problem in life have voted us down an economic black hole?

[/quote]

So are you telling me if you owned the store on the opposite corner to my store, that you would see no benefit in collaborating? It would be a huge benefit to us both.

You have yet to explain how these misguided social programs could not be offset by increasing prices. You have 3 people in the store you increase the pay by two dollars an hour that is 6 bucks an hour total, if you increase your gas price by a penny (which your competition has to do) then where is the down side.

240

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?
[/quote]

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard