Should We Drop Minimum Wage?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?

Are you talking cutting taxes like Bush, look what that got us? I can not believe all the jobs that flocked to America

I agree stop spending money you donâ??t have.

You must live on different planet than I. We have had social programs, but never an attempt to motivate people off the welfare dole
[/quote]

Any corporate tax cuts Bush made were mostly symbolic. No I’m talking about US Steel opening a plant in Slovenia after they lowered their corporate tax rate to 20%. I’m talking about Ireland dropping their unemployment from 18% in 1987 to 4.5% in 2000 by decreasing their corporate tax rate to 16%. It’s been proven to work time after time.

Study a little history. In 1996 Clinton signed Gingrich’s Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. Within 5 yrs the number of families recieving AFDC aid was cut in half. Again it’s been proven to work.

So that begs the question: What color is the sky in your world.

262

I can’t believe this is still going.

263

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
Ahhh I love these financial/political conversations…they just get so heated. The best part is when the insults about intelligence are being hurled. One person claims the other is retarded while their arguments/insults degrade into some sort of barely comprehensible grunting. Everyone, take a deep breath and relax. If I have to read one more red-faced keyboard punching tard outburst I just might shit my pants with laughter. Also, it doesn’t make your opinion look any more valid.

To help this thread get back on track I’ll try to lay down a few truths.
1. Minimum wage is evil
2. Minimum wage is a key player in the ruining of the US economy
3. Anyone who supports minimum wage doesn’t have a fully functional brain

This has been another Public Service Announcement.

I would love to debate you, but all you have stated was rhetoric. Where is your reasoning?

[/quote]

And that was the joke.

The problem is Pitbull that you are in total defensive mode atm because almost everyone in this discussion disagrees with you. You are acting like a feral animal with its back against the wall. You have worked yourself up into such a frenzy that you lash out instinctively instead of thinking about what to do. I’ll try to lay out some reasoning against minimum wage in a peaceful way so we can all calm down and start thinking.

Ask yourself why was the minimum wage even created? Historically, its roots are found in the US’s industrial revolution. People were flocking to American cities due to a wide variety of reasons ranging from religious freedom, famine, economic prosperity, etc. During this time period the work force largely outnumbered the job market in the major cities. Due to the supply of jobs being low and the demand for them being high the wages offered to workers was embarrassingly low. Since jobs were so valuable this lead to some corruption and unsafe work environments because people were willing to put up with them.

Eventually, a bunch of legislation was passed improving safety, benefits, wages, child labor laws, etc. Now you are probably thinking “you just supported my point you moron because all of that shit is good”. For the most part I’d agree with you. I believe the government was put into place to protect the people and by providing safe work environments the government has done it’s job. Now you need to ask yourself how is the government protecting us by mandating wages and benefits?

Yes, when all of this legislation was written up many people worked very hard for pennies a day. But, that was due to supply and demand. Huge groups of people were literally fresh off the boat and job creation couldn’t keep up with the tidal wave of newcomers. Think of it this way…If you are at your house you aren’t going to pay me $5 for a glass of water are you? But, if we are in the Sahara all of a sudden $5 doesn’t seem so bad for that same glass of water does it?

So what does the history behind minimum wage and my dumb Sahara story have to do with today? Well today the US economy is losing millions of jobs but we still have people coming into this country. Our job supply is dwindling while the amount of job seekers is growing. So an employer can now be very picky about whom they choose to hire and offer terms that are favorable to the company. So that company can now hire 2 skilled workers for the price of what they used to pay for 1. Now you are probably thinking “hey that isn’t right/fair”. However, if it really was just so outrageously wrong then those skilled workers wouldn’t accept that job. The employer wouldn’t have employees and would either fail or be forced to start offering more incentives to prospective applicants.

Ok so we’ve discussed history, the Sahara, and supply and demand. So wtf does this all have to do with the minimum wage? When we add in regulations, like minimum wage, this affects the free-market. Now I don’t believe we shouldn’t have any regulations but I think we could trim out most of them. I believe the essentials are safety, safety, and safety. This includes OSHA, workman’s comp, maximum hours worked per week, etc. All of these things affect the market but I believe it is a positive result. Our best and brightest employees are kept sharp, safe, and well rested and this benefits the company that employees them.

Now minimum wage rears its ugly head. “Hey we don’t have a definition for a livable wage or a good idea on what certain shit jobs are worth but you damned well better pay everyone at least $$$ or else.” “Wait wait wait. You admit you don’t know what these jobs are worth? Don’t know how much somebody needs to make to live at an idealistic yet undefined level of comfort? And this is supposedly going to benefit everyone?” “Yep, Yep, and Yep. Looks like we are all on the same page. Now please excuse me I have to start my walk home since I can only afford gas for two days a week.”

You know what…fuck it! This is taking way too damn long and I’m not sure if even any of it will get through to you. So please demonstrate to me that you have a basic understanding of Supply and Demand. Then I’ll complete my wild history, Sahara, Dilbert-esque story.

265

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
I can’t believe this is still going.

You think this is bad? You should check out that “What’s Wrong With Britain” thread. It’s plumb outrageous over yonder.[/quote]

Touché.

Actually I think that one has died a death. We actually started agreeing with each other then the fun went out of it.

266

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

You seem to believe that there is a limited amount of jobs.

There isnt.

There is however a limited amount of jobs people are willing to create and take when there is welfare and minimum wages.

So you are really complaining about a problem your attitude has created and what is your answer?

More government intervention.

And what if you get your way and that creates even more problems, what will your answer be then?

Undoubtedly even more intervention.

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

[/quote]

a) I have some magic fopr creating jobs. Do not interfere with the market and do not make creating jobs more expensive than it has to be.

and

b) shit bricks. Fortunately what you suggest has been tried for 80 years now and it is unlikely that it will suddenly start to work.

267

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

You seem to believe that there is a limited amount of jobs.

There isnt.

There is however a limited amount of jobs people are willing to create and take when there is welfare and minimum wages.

So you are really complaining about a problem your attitude has created and what is your answer?

More government intervention.

And what if you get your way and that creates even more problems, what will your answer be then?

Undoubtedly even more intervention.

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

a) I have some magic fopr creating jobs. Do not interfere with the market and do not make creating jobs more expensive than it has to be.

and

b) shit bricks. Fortunately what you suggest has been tried for 80 years now and it is unlikely that it will suddenly start to work.

[/quote]

Back to retoric with no reasoning

268

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
Ahhh I love these financial/political conversations…they just get so heated. The best part is when the insults about intelligence are being hurled. One person claims the other is retarded while their arguments/insults degrade into some sort of barely comprehensible grunting. Everyone, take a deep breath and relax. If I have to read one more red-faced keyboard punching tard outburst I just might shit my pants with laughter. Also, it doesn’t make your opinion look any more valid.

To help this thread get back on track I’ll try to lay down a few truths.
1. Minimum wage is evil
2. Minimum wage is a key player in the ruining of the US economy
3. Anyone who supports minimum wage doesn’t have a fully functional brain

This has been another Public Service Announcement.

I would love to debate you, but all you have stated was rhetoric. Where is your reasoning?

And that was the joke.

The problem is Pitbull that you are in total defensive mode atm because almost everyone in this discussion disagrees with you. You are acting like a feral animal with its back against the wall. You have worked yourself up into such a frenzy that you lash out instinctively instead of thinking about what to do. I’ll try to lay out some reasoning against minimum wage in a peaceful way so we can all calm down and start thinking.

Ask yourself why was the minimum wage even created? Historically, its roots are found in the US’s industrial revolution. People were flocking to American cities due to a wide variety of reasons ranging from religious freedom, famine, economic prosperity, etc. During this time period the work force largely outnumbered the job market in the major cities. Due to the supply of jobs being low and the demand for them being high the wages offered to workers was embarrassingly low. Since jobs were so valuable this lead to some corruption and unsafe work environments because people were willing to put up with them.

Eventually, a bunch of legislation was passed improving safety, benefits, wages, child labor laws, etc. Now you are probably thinking “you just supported my point you moron because all of that shit is good”. For the most part I’d agree with you. I believe the government was put into place to protect the people and by providing safe work environments the government has done it’s job. Now you need to ask yourself how is the government protecting us by mandating wages and benefits?

Yes, when all of this legislation was written up many people worked very hard for pennies a day. But, that was due to supply and demand. Huge groups of people were literally fresh off the boat and job creation couldn’t keep up with the tidal wave of newcomers. Think of it this way…If you are at your house you aren’t going to pay me $5 for a glass of water are you? But, if we are in the Sahara all of a sudden $5 doesn’t seem so bad for that same glass of water does it?

So what does the history behind minimum wage and my dumb Sahara story have to do with today? Well today the US economy is losing millions of jobs but we still have people coming into this country. Our job supply is dwindling while the amount of job seekers is growing. So an employer can now be very picky about whom they choose to hire and offer terms that are favorable to the company. So that company can now hire 2 skilled workers for the price of what they used to pay for 1. Now you are probably thinking “hey that isn’t right/fair”. However, if it really was just so outrageously wrong then those skilled workers wouldn’t accept that job. The employer wouldn’t have employees and would either fail or be forced to start offering more incentives to prospective applicants.

Ok so we’ve discussed history, the Sahara, and supply and demand. So wtf does this all have to do with the minimum wage? When we add in regulations, like minimum wage, this affects the free-market. Now I don’t believe we shouldn’t have any regulations but I think we could trim out most of them. I believe the essentials are safety, safety, and safety. This includes OSHA, workman’s comp, maximum hours worked per week, etc. All of these things affect the market but I believe it is a positive result. Our best and brightest employees are kept sharp, safe, and well rested and this benefits the company that employees them.

Now minimum wage rears its ugly head. “Hey we don’t have a definition for a livable wage or a good idea on what certain shit jobs are worth but you damned well better pay everyone at least $$$ or else.” “Wait wait wait. You admit you don’t know what these jobs are worth? Don’t know how much somebody needs to make to live at an idealistic yet undefined level of comfort? And this is supposedly going to benefit everyone?” “Yep, Yep, and Yep. Looks like we are all on the same page. Now please excuse me I have to start my walk home since I can only afford gas for two days a week.”

You know what…fuck it! This is taking way too damn long and I’m not sure if even any of it will get through to you. So please demonstrate to me that you have a basic understanding of Supply and Demand. Then I’ll complete my wild history, Sahara, Dilbert-esque story.[/quote]

It takes too long to read your post, and with the exception of the last paragraph, I would say we agree.

269

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I can’t believe this is still going.[/quote]

Just wasting time :slight_smile:

270

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?

Are you talking cutting taxes like Bush, look what that got us? I can not believe all the jobs that flocked to America

I agree stop spending money you don�¢??t have.

You must live on different planet than I. We have had social programs, but never an attempt to motivate people off the welfare dole

Any corporate tax cuts Bush made were mostly symbolic. No I’m talking about US Steel opening a plant in Slovenia after they lowered their corporate tax rate to 20%. I’m talking about Ireland dropping their unemployment from 18% in 1987 to 4.5% in 2000 by decreasing their corporate tax rate to 16%. It’s been proven to work time after time.

Study a little history. In 1996 Clinton signed Gingrich’s Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. Within 5 yrs the number of families recieving AFDC aid was cut in half. Again it’s been proven to work.

So that begs the question: What color is the sky in your world.
[/quote]

I remember Clinton limiting welfare, but now I believe they are on Social Security. The new welfare

As far as tax rate, if I were King of America I would abolish corporate taxes. But they would have to open all books and not shelter any money for any employees, but you do realize that would be more capital gains tax

The sky in my world is I donâ??t know what color do feral animals see :slight_smile: Maybe grey. But really right now my skies are blue, not a cloud in sight.

271

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Please do, I would love to see this Apartment that was livable , please include photos:)

Hey, if you’re looking maybe we can talk…

Although that is funny, there are standards that have to be meat. If you go into the migrant workers tenants you will find conditions worse than that closet

If the conditions are so bad, why do the migrants come? Are they forced or do the volunteer? Are they here illegally? How does it compare to their home?

They are better than they are in their country, but the idea is to bring them up to our standard and not take us down to their standard

Being more efficient, which leads to high productivity is what makes it possible to have a high standard of living. So, going ahead and paying for unskilled workers to do the menial jobs (at a fair price, which if you still have not figured out what fair means it is where both parties voluntarily come up with their own number) would make it more efficient for the skilled workers to do what they are specialized in, making everything better off.

I hate giving examples, but lets see if I can help you understand. I own a company. This company hypothetically owns rental properties and apartment complexes. Now, I could possibly be a one man show. I could do everything from start to finish: look at the trends of property demand, look for the properties, type the paper work, go over the paper work, transfer the title, advertise the property, find the people to live in the property, take care of the property, type the lease papers, go over the lease papers, show the property, do the credit checks on the people, collect the payments, make coffee, get lunch, fix the printers, fix the fax, clean the office, do random errands, and clean the toilets.

Or I could do what I am specialized at: finding money, studying trends, marketing, and negotiating. Which would allow me to do 100’s of more transactions than what I could do if I tried to do everything. With the four things I do through out the day I can pay over 75 people regularly, the people that loan me money to the people that sweep the floors. The problem is that I have the couple of college kids who do advertising that are on the low end of the company sweeping the floors and running errands. The errands that are ran could be done by any kid with a bike, but one the advertisers who are no doubt important could be doing more things that are considered advertising instead of the sweeping and errand running.

So since I do only the things I am good at, everyone makes more money because I let the skilled workers do their specialty and me mine so I am able to do the process more times per period. This also has a second side effect, since my company makes more money I spend more money, my employees spend more money, and I give to charity more money. Yet there is a hitch in the system. The lower level guys in my company could be focused more on their specialty (which would give my company more exposure and make even more money for everyone) if I could only hire for someone under the minimum wage to do the menial jobs.

As I see it, if I was a kid I would have no problem riding my bike after school and on Saturday for money. And if someone offered me money to sweep their floors I sure would. Hell, I remember when my parents would send me over to sweep the floors at the local barbershop and was paid with a hair cut.

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

Sorry to break it to you but Ronald Reagan did not bring with him a free market. All those people can say all they want, and throw a few pieces of legislation around but you have to look at what did as a whole.

Yes, and regulating it and making it more expensive is not going create more industry. Think about it the higher the price of a product the less of your product you can make, the less profit and the less expansion.[/quote]

Your own reasoning would say the less of my product , the higher the price

272

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?

Are you talking cutting taxes like Bush, look what that got us? I can not believe all the jobs that flocked to America

I agree stop spending money you donâ??t have.

You must live on different planet than I. We have had social programs, but never an attempt to motivate people off the welfare dole
[/quote]

Oh you mean the 1% of taxes Bush cut, oh such a big fucking cut. Compare that to the double digit increases over the past couple of presidential terms.

273

@Pittbulll:

The thing I find faulty, from my knowledge of economics is that let’s say legislation thinks that if we increase the minimum wage to $1000/hr from $7.25/hr. Legislatures thinks this will increase the standard of living. Let’s look at the affects, Johnny gets paid $1000/hr, so McDonald’s has to raise their prices for a McDouble to $140. Now let’s look at what all this did to Johnny’s standard of living for this one example. Sure Johnny now makes $8000/day. He can still only buy the same amount of burgers, the same kind of apartment, the same kind of car, etc.

The way standard of living increases is that by lowering the amount of time you put into a making a fixed amount of products. The other way you can increase standard of living is increasing the amount of product you make in a fixed amount of time, or a mixture of the two. They are essentially the same. It comes down to increasing efficiency.

No matter how much you try to increase the minimum wage all it will do is cut off the bottom of the work force that has not caught up to the minimum wage, however it will not increase standard of living. The way I raise my standard of living is by making it so I can do less. So, if I have three companies to look after I can raise my standard of living buy hiring three CEO’s to run my company and start on another company. I could also take those three companies and make them bigger. It’s up to the worker, either make the same in less time or in the same time, make more.

274

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pittbulll:

The thing I find faulty, from my knowledge of economics is that let’s say legislation thinks that if we increase the minimum wage to $1000/hr from $7.25/hr. Legislatures thinks this will increase the standard of living. Let’s look at the affects, Johnny gets paid $1000/hr, so McDonald’s has to raise their prices for a McDouble to $140. Now let’s look at what all this did to Johnny’s standard of living for this one example. Sure Johnny now makes $8000/day. He can still only buy the same amount of burgers, the same kind of apartment, the same kind of car, etc.

The way standard of living increases is that by lowering the amount of time you put into a making a fixed amount of products. The other way you can increase standard of living is increasing the amount of product you make in a fixed amount of time, or a mixture of the two. They are essentially the same. It comes down to increasing efficiency.

No matter how much you try to increase the minimum wage all it will do is cut off the bottom of the work force that has not caught up to the minimum wage, however it will not increase standard of living. The way I raise my standard of living is by making it so I can do less. So, if I have three companies to look after I can raise my standard of living buy hiring three CEO’s to run my company and start on another company. I could also take those three companies and make them bigger. It’s up to the worker, either make the same in less time or in the same time, make more.[/quote]

You know Chris, I agree one hundred percent with you on the first two paragraphs your last paragraph, I do not understand.

As far back as I can remember the productivity rate has gone up, the top one percent has gone up, why is the bottom ninety nine percent been flat?

275

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

You seem to believe that there is a limited amount of jobs.

There isnt.

There is however a limited amount of jobs people are willing to create and take when there is welfare and minimum wages.

So you are really complaining about a problem your attitude has created and what is your answer?

More government intervention.

And what if you get your way and that creates even more problems, what will your answer be then?

Undoubtedly even more intervention.

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

a) I have some magic fopr creating jobs. Do not interfere with the market and do not make creating jobs more expensive than it has to be.

and

b) shit bricks. Fortunately what you suggest has been tried for 80 years now and it is unlikely that it will suddenly start to work.

Back to retoric with no reasoning

[/quote]

Moi?

Dude show me one case where what you are proposing works?

They tried that for almost 100 years now!

276

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
@Pittbulll:

The thing I find faulty, from my knowledge of economics is that let’s say legislation thinks that if we increase the minimum wage to $1000/hr from $7.25/hr. Legislatures thinks this will increase the standard of living. Let’s look at the affects, Johnny gets paid $1000/hr, so McDonald’s has to raise their prices for a McDouble to $140. Now let’s look at what all this did to Johnny’s standard of living for this one example. Sure Johnny now makes $8000/day. He can still only buy the same amount of burgers, the same kind of apartment, the same kind of car, etc.

The way standard of living increases is that by lowering the amount of time you put into a making a fixed amount of products. The other way you can increase standard of living is increasing the amount of product you make in a fixed amount of time, or a mixture of the two. They are essentially the same. It comes down to increasing efficiency.

No matter how much you try to increase the minimum wage all it will do is cut off the bottom of the work force that has not caught up to the minimum wage, however it will not increase standard of living. The way I raise my standard of living is by making it so I can do less. So, if I have three companies to look after I can raise my standard of living buy hiring three CEO’s to run my company and start on another company. I could also take those three companies and make them bigger. It’s up to the worker, either make the same in less time or in the same time, make more.

You know Chris, I agree one hundred percent with you on the first two paragraphs your last paragraph, I do not understand.

As far back as I can remember the productivity rate has gone up, the top one percent has gone up, why is the bottom ninety nine percent been flat?
[/quote]

Your thinking ignores reality. Look at the standard of living of those below the poverty level 30 years ago compared to now. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation. The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other cities throughout Europe. (Note: These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries not to those classified as poor.) Seventy-six per cent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago only 36% of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning. So in a nutshell you have no idea what you are talking about.

Another huge hole in your thinking is the"poor" is not a static group. Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005. A 1992 Treasury Department study showed that between 1979 and 1988, 86 percent of those in the bottom income quintile moved to a higher quintile, and 35 percent in the top income quintile moved to a lower quintile. So once again pitbull, you are full of shit.

277

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I like your analogy; the problem is there are 3 adults currently living on welfare for each kid that rides his bike for a menial wage. There is no incentive for an adult currently on welfare to lose his benefits just to sooth his pride.

Supply and demand has control, there are at the present far more people than there are jobs, I personally lay the blame on the free market nuts, Ronald Reagan leading the way.

We need more industry in America.

You seem to believe that there is a limited amount of jobs.

There isnt.

There is however a limited amount of jobs people are willing to create and take when there is welfare and minimum wages.

So you are really complaining about a problem your attitude has created and what is your answer?

More government intervention.

And what if you get your way and that creates even more problems, what will your answer be then?

Undoubtedly even more intervention.

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

a) I have some magic fopr creating jobs. Do not interfere with the market and do not make creating jobs more expensive than it has to be.

and

b) shit bricks. Fortunately what you suggest has been tried for 80 years now and it is unlikely that it will suddenly start to work.

Back to retoric with no reasoning

Moi?

Dude show me one case where what you are proposing works?

They tried that for almost 100 years now!

[/quote]

These countries do not feel the need to decimate their poor. They all feel the need for social nets and that all labor is honorable and should be adequately compensated

Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Czech Republic

278

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?

Are you talking cutting taxes like Bush, look what that got us? I can not believe all the jobs that flocked to America

I agree stop spending money you don�¢??t have.

You must live on different planet than I. We have had social programs, but never an attempt to motivate people off the welfare dole

Oh you mean the 1% of taxes Bush cut, oh such a big fucking cut. Compare that to the double digit increases over the past couple of presidential terms.[/quote]

You will have to scroll down to economic policy, it states it was the largest tax cut in history .

279

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Here in America we have three point six million jobs in the last thirteen months. Now if you have some magic for creating jobs. Email me privately and we will retire when this recession is over

You will have to be more specific of what jobs Americans are refusing to create.

I am going to answer your second question with a question, what you will do if I get my way and you find out it is not only a better world for the poor but a better world for all.

It’s not magic, it’s common sense. 1) Eliminate corporate taxes. Companies that had taken their work overseas will flock back. 2) Eliminate capitol gains tax so that investment will increase. 3) Stop spending money we don’t have.

News flash, we’ve been trying it your way since FDR. How’s it been working?

Are you talking cutting taxes like Bush, look what that got us? I can not believe all the jobs that flocked to America

I agree stop spending money you don�?�¢??t have.

You must live on different planet than I. We have had social programs, but never an attempt to motivate people off the welfare dole

Oh you mean the 1% of taxes Bush cut, oh such a big fucking cut. Compare that to the double digit increases over the past couple of presidential terms.

You will have to scroll down to economic policy, it states it was the largest tax cut in history .

[/quote]

Wikipedia, that just sounds really gay. I wouldn’t trust that at all buddy. Even if it was the largest tax cut in history, that’s still does not say much. Especially with the double digit increases over the past 4-7 presidents.

280

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
@Pittbulll:

The thing I find faulty, from my knowledge of economics is that let’s say legislation thinks that if we increase the minimum wage to $1000/hr from $7.25/hr. Legislatures thinks this will increase the standard of living. Let’s look at the affects, Johnny gets paid $1000/hr, so McDonald’s has to raise their prices for a McDouble to $140. Now let’s look at what all this did to Johnny’s standard of living for this one example. Sure Johnny now makes $8000/day. He can still only buy the same amount of burgers, the same kind of apartment, the same kind of car, etc.

The way standard of living increases is that by lowering the amount of time you put into a making a fixed amount of products. The other way you can increase standard of living is increasing the amount of product you make in a fixed amount of time, or a mixture of the two. They are essentially the same. It comes down to increasing efficiency.

No matter how much you try to increase the minimum wage all it will do is cut off the bottom of the work force that has not caught up to the minimum wage, however it will not increase standard of living. The way I raise my standard of living is by making it so I can do less. So, if I have three companies to look after I can raise my standard of living buy hiring three CEO’s to run my company and start on another company. I could also take those three companies and make them bigger. It’s up to the worker, either make the same in less time or in the same time, make more.

You know Chris, I agree one hundred percent with you on the first two paragraphs your last paragraph, I do not understand.

As far back as I can remember the productivity rate has gone up, the top one percent has gone up, why is the bottom ninety nine percent been flat?
[/quote]

Actually the bottom ninety percent hasn’t been flat. It has increased, I am talking about the unemployed, the ones that have no income. When you raise minimum wage, they are now pushed out of the range.