Should We Drop Minimum Wage?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

A livable wage would be the sum of everything it costs to live a standardized life. I know it varies from Cleveland to N.Y.C.

OK, so tell what YOU think a busboy at Denny’s in Tucson should be making. That’s right, I want you to tell us what the manager of the Denny’s on E. Speedway Blvd. in Tucson, Arizona should be required by law to pay high school dropout Horace W. Jones for bussing tables. Doesn’t have to be an exact amount but give me a range in U.S. dollars.

[/quote]

That’s more like Jose W. Carlos when it comes to Tuscon.

202

Anyone can live on minimum wage. It is just a matter of what one is willing to give up.

A 50 lb bag of rice is less than $20 in most cities. It can last about 2 months with careful provisioning. Supplement with some beans and an occasional can of tuna fish, potted meat, or Ramen Noodles and we are talking sustainability food. Let’s say food is less than $100/month with some belt tightening and $300 if he should splurge on that can of Dinty Moore beef stew.

One can also find a very cheap room to rent; and if one is willing to share it it becomes even cheaper. Let’s say between $200 and $400.

Transportation can be expensive. Let’s assume one cannot afford a car and relies on public transportation and the charity of actual car owners. Here in the TC rush hour bus fare is $2.25 each direction but one can also buy a pass that is good at any time for $80/month; let’s also consider the occasional taxi when the bus isn’t running or if there is an emergency – an additional $50.

Let us also assume that this person also requires some maintenance money to keep himself up. Haircuts and the occasional bar of soap, etc. – $50/mo for the average and $100 when he has to make a co-pay to his doctor.

So far our total monthly expenses are between:
$430 – when one can be very frugal and not spend any extra
$930 – when one has extra expenses due to some unforeseen event and spending nothing else than that

$7.50/hour * 40 hours/week * 4.3 weeks/month == $1300/month

As far as I see it minimum wage is too high!!

Heck, my first job was making $4.74 and this was higher than minimum wage. I was rich!! But I still did not foolishly consider getting married, buying a car or a house, or moving out of my mom’s basement, for that matter.

:slight_smile:

203

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

You’re just not getting it. A livable wage is an impossibility, because the second you set that wage, prices and unemployment will rise, and you will have made society worse off overall without making a real increase in the quality of life of those who are now receiving your “livable wage”.

I agree prices will rise, but I don�?�¢??t agree unemployment will raise much. What you are failing to realize that when the CEO of the company gets a big raise then the prices go up also.

I think the people now making a livable wage would get a trickle up effect :slight_smile:

Maybe if we had a decade or two where the working class got the raises then we could cease this discussion on a livable wage

No we wouldn’t because the working class is already better off than ever before in history which is why they even have the time and energy to demand a minimum wage because of half baked economic theories.

Orion you need to do a little research on why we have a minimum wage here…[/quote]

Without even looking it up I can tell you that the root cause is an objective price theory and static economic models.

204

[quote]orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

You’re just not getting it. A livable wage is an impossibility, because the second you set that wage, prices and unemployment will rise, and you will have made society worse off overall without making a real increase in the quality of life of those who are now receiving your “livable wage”.

I agree prices will rise, but I don�??�?�¢??t agree unemployment will raise much. What you are failing to realize that when the CEO of the company gets a big raise then the prices go up also.

I think the people now making a livable wage would get a trickle up effect :slight_smile:

Maybe if we had a decade or two where the working class got the raises then we could cease this discussion on a livable wage

No we wouldn’t because the working class is already better off than ever before in history which is why they even have the time and energy to demand a minimum wage because of half baked economic theories.

Orion you need to do a little research on why we have a minimum wage here…

Without even looking it up I can tell you that the root cause is an objective price theory and static economic models.

[/quote]

So you’re willing to admit that you’re commenting on something you know nothing about?

205

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

You’re just not getting it. A livable wage is an impossibility, because the second you set that wage, prices and unemployment will rise, and you will have made society worse off overall without making a real increase in the quality of life of those who are now receiving your “livable wage”.

I agree prices will rise, but I don�??�??�?�¢??t agree unemployment will raise much. What you are failing to realize that when the CEO of the company gets a big raise then the prices go up also.

I think the people now making a livable wage would get a trickle up effect :slight_smile:

Maybe if we had a decade or two where the working class got the raises then we could cease this discussion on a livable wage

No we wouldn’t because the working class is already better off than ever before in history which is why they even have the time and energy to demand a minimum wage because of half baked economic theories.

Orion you need to do a little research on why we have a minimum wage here…

Without even looking it up I can tell you that the root cause is an objective price theory and static economic models.

So you’re willing to admit that you’re commenting on something you know nothing about?[/quote]

No, he’s quoting Keynesian theory – which is how most statist economist will justify a minimum wage.

But we can pretend for a moment that politicians really do care if it makes you feel better about it.

206

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Producer wrote:
I wonder how someone making 3.00 an hour could survive. Are some of you not sober?

Minimum wage should be $1. Who cares if they gotta live under a bridge, they can take a bath in the restaurant’s sinks and wear the company uniform. Steal booze on the job and get drunk by the end of shift, eating out of the dumpster, getting raped for money, on a blow habbit to help her feel better about her dollar an hour job, getting cummed on all day to support her blow habbit and help pay the bills.

That was probably one of the stupidest things I have read, if this was an actual forum I would ask security to remove you and throw you into the insane asylum to be checked out for such irrationality and logic fallacy.

No one can survive on minimum wage, that is why it is ridiculous to have it, it just makes it so that those who are entering the job market cannot get a job that could benefit from the experience more than the pay, such as teenagers (if they have job experience it would be safe to say they could get a job paying more than minimum livable wages when it comes time when they have to support themselves). If someone were to be on minimum wage, they should not be “getting by” on that income alone, they would need multiple jobs, etc.

Economically speaking when having to pay for the menial jobs at such a high price it makes it so that higher skilled jobs do not get paid higher wages, not as many menial positions are available, or higher skilled workers have to take some of the slack from the lack of menial jobs being taken on by unskilled workers.

I do not think it is the STUPIDIST thing I have heard here :slight_smile:

I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Two reasons this is idiotic. First, some nameless border-line incompetent bureaucrat in DC should decide what a menial job should pay? You really want that responsibility to rest there rather with the laws of supply & demand. Second, if a bus boy is paid a “living wage” of, say $9/hr, then the cook will have to get a raise to stay above that, because his job requires more expertise, so he makes $12/hr. Then the manager will have to get a raise to stay above that, because his job requires more expertise, so he makes $18/hr, etc all the way up the job descreptions. Congratulations, you’ve just made the restaurant unprofitable so it goes out of business and they are all unemployed. If minimum wage such a great idea, why is unemplyment for high scholl age kids at 50%?

207

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

You’re just not getting it. A livable wage is an impossibility, because the second you set that wage, prices and unemployment will rise, and you will have made society worse off overall without making a real increase in the quality of life of those who are now receiving your “livable wage”.

I agree prices will rise, but I don�??�??�??�?�¢??t agree unemployment will raise much. What you are failing to realize that when the CEO of the company gets a big raise then the prices go up also.

I think the people now making a livable wage would get a trickle up effect :slight_smile:

Maybe if we had a decade or two where the working class got the raises then we could cease this discussion on a livable wage

No we wouldn’t because the working class is already better off than ever before in history which is why they even have the time and energy to demand a minimum wage because of half baked economic theories.

Orion you need to do a little research on why we have a minimum wage here…

Without even looking it up I can tell you that the root cause is an objective price theory and static economic models.

So you’re willing to admit that you’re commenting on something you know nothing about?

No, he’s quoting Keynesian theory – which is how most statist economist will justify a minimum wage.

But we can pretend for a moment that politicians really do care if it makes you feel better about it.[/quote]

That wasn’t what I was asking, has anybody actually read the FLSA?

208

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

You’re just not getting it. A livable wage is an impossibility, because the second you set that wage, prices and unemployment will rise, and you will have made society worse off overall without making a real increase in the quality of life of those who are now receiving your “livable wage”.

I agree prices will rise, but I don�??�??�??�??�?�¢??t agree unemployment will raise much. What you are failing to realize that when the CEO of the company gets a big raise then the prices go up also.

I think the people now making a livable wage would get a trickle up effect :slight_smile:

Maybe if we had a decade or two where the working class got the raises then we could cease this discussion on a livable wage

No we wouldn’t because the working class is already better off than ever before in history which is why they even have the time and energy to demand a minimum wage because of half baked economic theories.

Orion you need to do a little research on why we have a minimum wage here…

Without even looking it up I can tell you that the root cause is an objective price theory and static economic models.

So you’re willing to admit that you’re commenting on something you know nothing about?

No, he’s quoting Keynesian theory – which is how most statist economist will justify a minimum wage.

But we can pretend for a moment that politicians really do care if it makes you feel better about it.

That wasn’t what I was asking, has anybody actually read the FLSA?[/quote]

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.

209

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.[/quote]

Well part of being an educated human is having an understanding of the past so were not doomed to repeat it. So it’s up to you read, don’t read it. I really don’t care anymore.

210

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.

Well part of being an educated human is having an understanding of the past so were not doomed to repeat it. So it’s up to you read, don’t read it. I really don’t care anymore.[/quote]

I am very< pessimistic about learning from the past.

There are some basic human qualities that do not seem to change and when they can no longer be expressed through a certain set of ideas then they find a new one.

Insofar I am more interested in the shape of ideas, that way I know immediately when some particular lily monster raises its head again. by the sheer gestalt of it.

211

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Anyone can live on minimum wage. It is just a matter of what one is willing to give up.

A 50 lb bag of rice is less than $20 in most cities. It can last about 2 months with careful provisioning. Supplement with some beans and an occasional can of tuna fish, potted meat, or Ramen Noodles and we are talking sustainability food. Let’s say food is less than $100/month with some belt tightening and $300 if he should splurge on that can of Dinty Moore beef stew.

One can also find a very cheap room to rent; and if one is willing to share it it becomes even cheaper. Let’s say between $200 and $400.

Transportation can be expensive. Let’s assume one cannot afford a car and relies on public transportation and the charity of actual car owners. Here in the TC rush hour bus fare is $2.25 each direction but one can also buy a pass that is good at any time for $80/month; let’s also consider the occasional taxi when the bus isn’t running or if there is an emergency – an additional $50.

Let us also assume that this person also requires some maintenance money to keep himself up. Haircuts and the occasional bar of soap, etc. – $50/mo for the average and $100 when he has to make a co-pay to his doctor.

So far our total monthly expenses are between:
$430 – when one can be very frugal and not spend any extra
$930 – when one has extra expenses due to some unforeseen event and spending nothing else than that

$7.50/hour * 40 hours/week * 4.3 weeks/month == $1300/month

As far as I see it minimum wage is too high!!

Heck, my first job was making $4.74 and this was higher than minimum wage. I was rich!! But I still did not foolishly consider getting married, buying a car or a house, or moving out of my mom’s basement, for that matter.

:)[/quote]

I think you just described my college living experience there!

212

[quote]orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.

Well part of being an educated human is having an understanding of the past so were not doomed to repeat it. So it’s up to you read, don’t read it. I really don’t care anymore.

I am very< pessimistic about learning from the past.

There are some basic human qualities that do not seem to change and when they can no longer be expressed through a certain set of ideas then they find a new one.

Insofar I am more interested in the shape of ideas, that way I know immediately when some particular lily monster raises its head again. by the sheer gestalt of it.

[/quote]

That is fine I was just trying to see if anybody else has bothered to review the act or not. I did due to part of my pay for my profession falling under it.

213

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.

Well part of being an educated human is having an understanding of the past so were not doomed to repeat it. So it’s up to you read, don’t read it. I really don’t care anymore.

I am very< pessimistic about learning from the past.

There are some basic human qualities that do not seem to change and when they can no longer be expressed through a certain set of ideas then they find a new one.

Insofar I am more interested in the shape of ideas, that way I know immediately when some particular lily monster raises its head again. by the sheer gestalt of it.

That is fine I was just trying to see if anybody else has bothered to review the act or not. I did due to part of my pay for my profession falling under it.[/quote]

Fantastic, make a thread and enlighten us.

214

[quote]orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.

Well part of being an educated human is having an understanding of the past so were not doomed to repeat it. So it’s up to you read, don’t read it. I really don’t care anymore.

I am very< pessimistic about learning from the past.

There are some basic human qualities that do not seem to change and when they can no longer be expressed through a certain set of ideas then they find a new one.

Insofar I am more interested in the shape of ideas, that way I know immediately when some particular lily monster raises its head again. by the sheer gestalt of it.

That is fine I was just trying to see if anybody else has bothered to review the act or not. I did due to part of my pay for my profession falling under it.

Fantastic, make a thread and enlighten us.

[/quote]

LOL I’ve been a member here too long to take the bait that easily. But thanks anyway for the invitation.

215

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
orion wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do I care about the propaganda contained in there?

Wouldn’t I be more concerned about what real, learned economists think about it?

Going to the source of the problem to find out about the problem would be like me reading Mein Kampf to find out why Nazism is a good idea.

Well part of being an educated human is having an understanding of the past so were not doomed to repeat it. So it’s up to you read, don’t read it. I really don’t care anymore.

I am very< pessimistic about learning from the past.

There are some basic human qualities that do not seem to change and when they can no longer be expressed through a certain set of ideas then they find a new one.

Insofar I am more interested in the shape of ideas, that way I know immediately when some particular lily monster raises its head again. by the sheer gestalt of it.

That is fine I was just trying to see if anybody else has bothered to review the act or not. I did due to part of my pay for my profession falling under it.

Fantastic, make a thread and enlighten us.

LOL I’ve been a member here too long to take the bait that easily. But thanks anyway for the invitation.[/quote]

Oh no!

I tried to sucker you into making a tread by telling you to make a thread!

Guess that clever ruse did not work?

216

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Producer wrote:
I wonder how someone making 3.00 an hour could survive. Are some of you not sober?

Minimum wage should be $1. Who cares if they gotta live under a bridge, they can take a bath in the restaurant’s sinks and wear the company uniform. Steal booze on the job and get drunk by the end of shift, eating out of the dumpster, getting raped for money, on a blow habbit to help her feel better about her dollar an hour job, getting cummed on all day to support her blow habbit and help pay the bills.

That was probably one of the stupidest things I have read, if this was an actual forum I would ask security to remove you and throw you into the insane asylum to be checked out for such irrationality and logic fallacy.

No one can survive on minimum wage, that is why it is ridiculous to have it, it just makes it so that those who are entering the job market cannot get a job that could benefit from the experience more than the pay, such as teenagers (if they have job experience it would be safe to say they could get a job paying more than minimum livable wages when it comes time when they have to support themselves). If someone were to be on minimum wage, they should not be “getting by” on that income alone, they would need multiple jobs, etc.

Economically speaking when having to pay for the menial jobs at such a high price it makes it so that higher skilled jobs do not get paid higher wages, not as many menial positions are available, or higher skilled workers have to take some of the slack from the lack of menial jobs being taken on by unskilled workers.

I do not think it is the STUPIDIST thing I have heard here :slight_smile:

I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

Two reasons this is idiotic. First, some nameless border-line incompetent bureaucrat in DC should decide what a menial job should pay? You really want that responsibility to rest there rather with the laws of supply & demand. Second, if a bus boy is paid a “living wage” of, say $9/hr, then the cook will have to get a raise to stay above that, because his job requires more expertise, so he makes $12/hr. Then the manager will have to get a raise to stay above that, because his job requires more expertise, so he makes $18/hr, etc all the way up the job descreptions. Congratulations, you’ve just made the restaurant unprofitable so it goes out of business and they are all unemployed. If minimum wage such a great idea, why is unemplyment for high scholl age kids at 50%? [/quote]

All the Gov. would say is that employers will not pay some one below a wage that would be livable. I would say each community would stipulate what it costs to live a standard life in their community. If the restaurant wants to pay all employees the same fine, that is the restaurants problem of finding a manager

Right now the wages are dictated by a collaborative effort by those employing people. If we had a free market in labor, we would have to start with the lettuce picker. We would have to pay more than slave wages and it would trickle up.

Unemployment is so high for High School kids because there are not enough jobs to go around. America needs to start making things again.

217

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Producer wrote:
I wonder how someone making 3.00 an hour could survive. Are some of you not sober?

Minimum wage should be $1. Who cares if they gotta live under a bridge, they can take a bath in the restaurant’s sinks and wear the company uniform. Steal booze on the job and get drunk by the end of shift, eating out of the dumpster, getting raped for money, on a blow habbit to help her feel better about her dollar an hour job, getting cummed on all day to support her blow habbit and help pay the bills.

That was probably one of the stupidest things I have read, if this was an actual forum I would ask security to remove you and throw you into the insane asylum to be checked out for such irrationality and logic fallacy.

No one can survive on minimum wage, that is why it is ridiculous to have it, it just makes it so that those who are entering the job market cannot get a job that could benefit from the experience more than the pay, such as teenagers (if they have job experience it would be safe to say they could get a job paying more than minimum livable wages when it comes time when they have to support themselves). If someone were to be on minimum wage, they should not be “getting by” on that income alone, they would need multiple jobs, etc.

Economically speaking when having to pay for the menial jobs at such a high price it makes it so that higher skilled jobs do not get paid higher wages, not as many menial positions are available, or higher skilled workers have to take some of the slack from the lack of menial jobs being taken on by unskilled workers.

I do not think it is the STUPIDIST thing I have heard here :slight_smile:

I agree no one can live on minimum wage. That is why we need a livable wage

I am not sure if I understand the rest of your post but I think wages would trickle up :slight_smile:

Well let’s establish a livable wage, I am one of the most frugal people I know and I still live very comfortably (weigh around 260-270 lbs, fit to do the things I want, I read books, watch movies, have plenty of friends, and I go to church and tithe.

Personally if it wasn’t for my drinking habit, my trucks, my women, and hunting. I could live off of, about a dollar a day. And as it is now, I live below the $5 a day that some World Organisation says means I’m in poverty.

So, there we go, dollar a day, a hard working person plus 10 hour days. 10 cents an hour, there is your livable wage. Now, if you want to go off my friend who is a hermit, you might know him John Michael Talbot, the man has no money, does not spend any money, does not make any money unless it goes to the Church. Yet he lives a very full life with no wants.[/quote]

I must say I am impressed, but you situation is highly unusual

218

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree prices will rise, but I don�¢??t agree unemployment will raise much. What you are failing to realize that when the CEO of the company gets a big raise then the prices go up also.

…the CEO’s pay is usually proportional to how much he makes for a company. So basically, you’re wrong.

I think the people now making a livable wage would get a trickle up effect :slight_smile:

How so? They haven’t gained any purchasing power due to price increases. So how exactly would there be a trickle up?

Maybe if we had a decade or two where the working class got the raises then we could cease this discussion on a livable wage

What? Why would the working class get a raise? [/quote]

Then those CEOs of those banks that ran America into the ditch did not make any maoney last year ?

220

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

A livable wage would be the sum of everything it costs to live a standardized life. I know it varies from Cleveland to N.Y.C.

OK, so tell what YOU think a busboy at Denny’s in Tucson should be making. That’s right, I want you to tell us what the manager of the Denny’s on E. Speedway Blvd. in Tucson, Arizona should be required by law to pay high school dropout Horace W. Jones for bussing tables. Doesn’t have to be an exact amount but give me a range in U.S. dollars.

[/quote]

I would guess a livable wage in Tucson is $9 to $10 per hour. I think rents start at $500 - $600 a month