[quote]pat wrote:
I sense the struggle here is that one party, wants to believe in the overall goodness of people who are being tarnished by the actions of a few. The other side sees that while the former may be truemost of the time, it is not the case with islam.
[/quote]
To say I believe in the overall goodness of people is a stretch.
I recognize that there is a problem with people clinging to alien cultures and attempting to institutionalize them in the West. I disagree that the problems are irreconcilable or intractable.
We can restrict immigration, I suppose. But I would like to see real solutions presented that can be used within the context of a liberal regime.
There’s a comment I found on another blog that I think rings true:
[quote]Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
It goes beyond this. A huge percentage of Muslims are already well aware of how Islamic jihad has begun in earnest. Those who watch al-Jazeera and al-Manar-or other Islamic media outlets-cannot but be keenly aware of global jihad’s impact upon the greater world. Still-confronted with Islam’s constant atrocities-they remain silent.
There can no longer be any excuse about “waiting for the strong horse to appear”. The patent evil of global terrorism long ago negated such callow fence-sitting. The deafening silence of Islam’s ummah has even gone beyond any notion that, “silence is consent”. As a Spanish journalist once observed:
“After a point, silence is no longer consent.
To remain silent is to lie.”
Such is the position that Westerners are placed in at this time. There has been more than adequate opportunity for huge numbers of Muslims to make clear their displeasure with fanatical Islam’s barbarity. No such thing has happened and such silence is no longer just a form of tacit consent but an overt lie about whose side these silent Muslims really are on.
The fanatic’s don’t “own them”, they own the fanatics. Silent Muslims have bought the fanatics lock, stock and barrel. Through constant outpourings of zakat, thay have bought the fanatics every last kilogram of semtex, cell phone trigger and warferin-coated ball bearing.
Only the most remote, backwater illiterate and off-grid Muslim has any possible claim of ignorance. Even then, the incidence of aggression and jihadist violence in distant locations such as Aceh and Southern Thailand still serve to indict even Islam’s most rustic practitioners. There is little to no evidence that Muslims are anywhere near universal in their condemnation of terrorist violence.
Even if there were such unanimity regarding jihad, Islam would still be damned straight to eternal Hell by its continued practice of shari’a law. Beheadings, stonings, genital mutilation, spousal abuse, murdering of homosexuals, sexual child abuse and de facto slavery all make Islam unfit for participation upon the world stage.
Even more offensive than the foregoing practices is the spectacle of shari’a law’s adherents entering free societies to criticize and threaten those who protect not just their own free speech but that of Muslims as well. The stupendous hypocrisy of such monumental Islamic gall transcends all boundaries of reasonable forebearance or tolerance. Constant Muslim demands for their Religious Freedom in Western lands-despite the complete and total lack of genuine reciprocity in Islamic nations-is nothing less than a declaration of religious war.
It is time to tear up the pavement of this horrendous one-way street. Barricades to further immigration plus the lightning quick expulsion of Muslim law-breakers and extremists should only be the starting point of an increasing violent pushback against Islamic supremacism. Western politicians who abet continued colonization by these savages must be thrust from office, by force if elections cannot achieve any meaningful result.
Responsible patriots must ring down the curtain on this Multicultural farce and put an end to the most egregious social engineering experiment since Soviet and communist Chinese tyrants cheerfully slaughtered untold millions of their own. Muslims who take such obnoxious delight in jabbing knives into the dragon’s hide must be given a taste of scorching flame as their reward. The charred embers of Islam should stand as stark testimony to their idiotic folly.[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.
Do you believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?
Normally that would come off as an unfair caricature… but you seem to believe that moderate Islam is impossible.
Well if there is such a thing as a moderate islam, then it is being quashed with a vengeance. No I can’t prove it, it is my own observation. No, I don’t hate them, but I don’t understand their hate and I do resent it. [/quote]
Alevis (Turkish: Aleviler Kurdish: Elewî) are a religious, sub-ethnic and cultural community in Turkey, numbering in the millions. (See “Demographics” for various population estimates.)
Alevi worship takes place in assembly houses (cemevi), not in mosques. The ceremony (âyîn-i cem, or simply cem) features music and dance (semah), which symbolize the putting off of one�??s self and uniting with God. In Alevism, men and women are regarded as equals, and pray side by side.
Key Alevi principles include:
* Love and respect for all people (�??The important thing is not religion, but being a human being�??)
* Tolerance towards other religions and ethnic groups (�??If you hurt another person, the ritual prayers you have done are counted as worthless�??)
* Respect for working people ("The greatest act of worship is to work�??)
Some consider Alevism a type of Shi’a Islam (and specifically, of Twelvers (Ithna-'Ashariyya), since Alevis accept Shi�??i beliefs about Imam Ali and the Twelve Imams. Many Alevis, however, are uncomfortable describing themselves as Shi�??i, since there are major differences in philosophy, customs, and rituals from the prevailing form of Shi�??ism in modern Iran.
Alevism is also closely related to the Bektashi Sufi lineage, in the sense that both venerate Hajji Bektash Wali (Hacibekta�? Veli), a saint of the 13th century. Many Alevis refer to an “Alevi-Bektashi” tradition, but this identity is not universally accepted, nor is the combined name used by non-Turkish Bektashis (e.g., in the Balkans).
In addition to its religious aspect, Alevism is also closely associated with Anatolian folk culture. The Kurdish and Turkish languages (not Arabic) are generally used in Alevi rituals.
Modern Alevi theology has been profoundly influenced by humanism and universalism. During the 1960s, many younger Alevis came to conceive of Alevism in non-religious terms, with some even relating it to Marxism. The 1990s brought a new emphasis on Alevism as an ethnic or cultural identity. Alevi communities today generally support secularism after the Kemalist model, partly out of mistrust of majoritarian religiosity.
Alevis in Khorasan, Armenia and Azerbaijan speak dialects of Kurmanji or Zazaki. Various groups with similar beliefs exist in Northwestern Iran and Northern Iraq, including the Ibrahimi, Sarliyya, Kakai, Shabaks and Ahl-e Haqq.
What is this supposed to prove, Orion? There’s a handful of Anatolians who practice this religion, so what? Did it prevent the rest of the Turks and the Kurds from going on a jihad against the millions of Greeks and Armenians who were the original Anatolians? These guys even got massacred themselves:
[quote]nephorm wrote:
pat wrote:
I sense the struggle here is that one party, wants to believe in the overall goodness of people who are being tarnished by the actions of a few. The other side sees that while the former may be truemost of the time, it is not the case with islam.
To say I believe in the overall goodness of people is a stretch.
I recognize that there is a problem with people clinging to alien cultures and attempting to institutionalize them in the West. I disagree that the problems are irreconcilable or intractable.
We can restrict immigration, I suppose. But I would like to see real solutions presented that can be used within the context of a liberal regime.
[/quote]
The solution for us is to stop doing business with them. We essentially fund their means to do us harm. I see doing business with your enemies as a bad policy every time. Wanna see the Saudi’s sweat, let’s drill our own oil.
By no means take my word for it. Open the canonical texts of Islam and examine them for yourself. Figure out how it’s understood by Muslims themselves.
The thing I’ve just suggested is what Westerners refuse to do - the due diligence. [/quote]
No way! I don’t get much time to read in the first place, when I do it’s not going to be that shit. I got better things to read.
I am sure you are right in that their texts are the muse they draw on for their bad behavior…If not it comes from somewhere. I just don’t really wanna read that crap. I wanna learn about motor unit theory and physiological adaptation.
This is what is striking to me about global islam in general…They become very upset about the stupidest things and express outrage and do violence when they are offended. When somebody truly perverts their religion, by murder, terror, property destruction, etc. The community is dead silent in protest and even celebrate these abominations to their religion and God. It’s a crying shame but how much is the world going to take? The rest of the world is called on to be tolerant, but that same word is unfamiliar to them.[/quote]
good post.
The question this paragraph leads to then, if one is intellectually honest with himself, is “is this really a barbaric perversion of the religion or is it the true religion being practiced?”. At some point, the frequency, intensity, and long history incidences of barbarism must force the question as to whether the barbaric customs are a perversion or the true version of Islam. One might wish to say the same thing about Christianity, but there is no analogy. The worst periods in Christian history are still short lived and/or due to superstition and ignorance when compared to a solid 1400+ year “mean streak”.
There’s no easy answer for this question. I certainly don’t have one. And while I have long traditionally believed as neph and other moderates, I have been forced to reconsider. Quite frankly, I’m not liking what I see.
I’m not really decided at all, it’s just that the things I’m confronting have me seriously questioning. I certainly don’t hate them, but as you said, I don’t understand their hatred, and I really resent it.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
The worst periods in Christian history are still short lived and/or due to superstition and ignorance when compared to a solid 1400+ year “mean streak”.
Think a little bit, guys, about this statement by Lord Phillips:
“…In his speech at an East London mosque, Lord Phillips signalled approval of Sharia principles as long as punishments and divorce rulings… complied with the law of the land…”
I think that’s the rub…
I don’t think that business agreements, land issues, etc…or agreements concerning “things” and contracts are going to be an issue.
However, things are most likely going to come to a head if there are disagreements involving 1) women 2) men vs. women 4) sect differences 5) definitely punishments (public floggings and stonings?) and 6) issues that involve things like equal protections, church/State separations, and individual freedoms.
I think that if there was ever a proverbial “Pandora’s Box” being opened for Great Britain…this is it.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
What do you know of Islamic jurisprudence? Anything? What is this opinion based on?[/quote]
Some. I am not going to get into it with you.
I do know people who are Muslim and moderate, and who dislike the behavior of the radical Islamists. If you feel they are not vocal enough - I do not know what to tell you. They are as vocal as any other regular person.
I realize there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind on this issue.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
What is this supposed to prove, Orion? There’s a handful of Anatolians who practice this religion, so what? Did it prevent the rest of the Turks and the Kurds from going on a jihad against the millions of Greeks and Armenians who were the original Anatolians? These guys even got massacred themselves:
[/quote]
Well, if there is such a thing as moderate Islam, yadayadayada…
[quote]orion wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
What is this supposed to prove, Orion? There’s a handful of Anatolians who practice this religion, so what? Did it prevent the rest of the Turks and the Kurds from going on a jihad against the millions of Greeks and Armenians who were the original Anatolians? These guys even got massacred themselves:
Well, if there is such a thing as moderate Islam, yadayadayada…
There are millions…
[/quote]
Really? Present evidence, because there is gobs and gobs of it to the contrary…I think this is actually more wishful thinking on your part as you continent is getting over run…You just hope they are nice.
You know really, what the hell, you guys get off on bragging about how many languages you speak, why not add Arabic to the library.
[quote]pat wrote:
orion wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
What is this supposed to prove, Orion? There’s a handful of Anatolians who practice this religion, so what? Did it prevent the rest of the Turks and the Kurds from going on a jihad against the millions of Greeks and Armenians who were the original Anatolians? These guys even got massacred themselves:
Well, if there is such a thing as moderate Islam, yadayadayada…
There are millions…
Really? Present evidence, because there is gobs and gobs of it to the contrary…I think this is actually more wishful thinking on your part as you continent is getting over run…You just hope they are nice.
You know really, what the hell, you guys get off on bragging about how many languages you speak, why not add Arabic to the library.[/quote]
My last girlfriend was an Alevite…
And she was very nice to me :-)…
I really cannot help it that there is an Islamic sect that is more liberal than most religions…
And yes there are between 10 and 20 million of them in Turky alone…