Sharia Law SHOULD be Used in Britain

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Chewie wrote:
nephorm wrote:
If the point is that one can use a set of standards to govern contracts between consenting individuals, and as long as those standards are not contrary to the law they should be enforceable - I see no problem.

The problem lies when the word law is used. How do you choose what law applies to you?

In areas of England where Sharia law prevails, are non-Muslims going to have to pay taxes for not being Muslims like is exercised under Sharia law? Will your freedom be imposed upon if you happen to commit a crime under Sharia law that is not one of English law? [/quote]

I thought you had brains. Then came your input on HH’s detention for kids who refused to prosternate. Then this.

It was spelled out to you many times, but you persist in your refusal to see the point and call it rationalizition. So, for the last time, the judge didn’t advocate any of the scenarios you refer to. Sharia law is not to be imposed. It is something you enter in voluntarily. And English common law shall always prevail. This is about person A and person B willingly agreeing to have whatever form of Sharia they favor, rule in cases that concern them and them alone (provided the judgement “complied with the rule of the land”).

How fscking hard is that to understand?

I agree that it only encourages sectarianism, but it’s the way the British system was crafted. It’s called mediation and it isn’t going anywhere. Blame raving British colonialism as this law is a remnant of the time they tried to rule the world.

22

[quote]Chewie wrote:
It’s not a hate-fest. [/quote]

Could have fooled me…

Amateur.

I don’t want any law impending on my freedom!

You do realize Lord Phillips was referring to Britain and that this has absolutely nothing to do with the US? Do you?

Hmmm…better invade just to be safe.

23

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chewie wrote:
It’s not a hate-fest.

Could have fooled me…

We don’t want Sharia law impending on our freedom.

Amateur.

I don’t want any law impending on my freedom!
[/quote]

But you think Sharia law is OK? WTF?

I answered that in the following paragraph.

[quote]
Another thing. America was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals, not religion, but ideals. Sharia law challenges the ideals that our country was founded upon and we want to maintain our identity/culture. Why does this happening in England matter to us? Because it is getting closer to our doorstep, that’s why.

Hmmm…better invade just to be safe.[/quote]

Hmmm… Another trite liberal statement. Are you going to pull “you can’t hug with nuclear arms”?

24

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Chewie wrote:
The problem lies when the word law is used. How do you choose what law applies to you?

Jews follow the Torah, Muslims follow Sharia. You choose in the sense that you agree to terms for arbitration.

Judge Judy is no longer a real judge. Her “court” is only arbitration. But two people with a dispute go before her and agree to abide by her decisions. They are not compelled to, but they choose to. Having entered into the contract, they are then bound by the results, except for where those results conflict with the law of the state (such as when she made a custody “ruling” that was clearly outside of the parameters of the arbitration). In this sense, I see no conflict.[/quote]

If that were the case, it would be OK. I, however, see it as being too optimistic. The fact remains that this would be intertwined in the government is what is bad. You can personally follow whatever laws you see fit. If you apply those laws to the masses, you violate freedoms.

Will the UK apply Vatican law as well?

25

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chewie wrote:
It’s not a hate-fest.

Could have fooled me…

We don’t want Sharia law impending on our freedom.

Amateur.

I don’t want any law impending on my freedom!

Another BIG deal is that the US was founded on a major principle of separation of Church and State and this gives a leg up to one religion and intertwines their religion in state.

You do realize Lord Phillips was referring to Britain and that this has absolutely nothing to do with the US? Do you?

Another thing. America was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals, not religion, but ideals. Sharia law challenges the ideals that our country was founded upon and we want to maintain our identity/culture. Why does this happening in England matter to us? Because it is getting closer to our doorstep, that’s why.

Hmmm…better invade just to be safe.[/quote]

Lixy, when the hate-fest entailed in 9:5 and 9:29 are removed from Islam, then come lecture us.

26

[quote]Chewie wrote:
nephorm wrote:
If the point is that one can use a set of standards to govern contracts between consenting individuals, and as long as those standards are not contrary to the law they should be enforceable - I see no problem.

The problem lies when the word law is used. How do you choose what law applies to you?

In areas of England where Sharia law prevails, are non-Muslims going to have to pay taxes for not being Muslims like is exercised under Sharia law? Will your freedom be imposed upon if you happen to commit a crime under Sharia law that is not one of English law? [/quote]

Whose law will prevail? I think we know the answer to that. Those who are more zealous for their law will prevail.

27

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Whose law will prevail? I think we know the answer to that. Those who are more zealous for their law will prevail. [/quote]

Overreacting to media-manufactured non-stories does not increase conservative credibility.

I understand that you are trying to make a point, and as such you will take any springboard that presents itself; but perhaps if you limited yourself to real issues that accurately represent a cultural threat you would convince more people.

28

[quote]nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Whose law will prevail? I think we know the answer to that. Those who are more zealous for their law will prevail.

Overreacting to media-manufactured non-stories does not increase conservative credibility.

I understand that you are trying to make a point, and as such you will take any springboard that presents itself; but perhaps if you limited yourself to real issues that accurately represent a cultural threat you would convince more people.[/quote]

This is an important story because the muslims in Britain live apart from the rest of society. When there are members of the establishment endorsing them setting up a seperate legal system it is a story.

If you think it isn’t I suggest you go over there sometime and go walking around a no go zone on your own.

29

[quote]Sifu wrote:
This is an important story because the muslims in Britain live apart from the rest of society. When there are members of the establishment endorsing them setting up a seperate legal system it is a story.

If you think it isn’t I suggest you go over there sometime and go walking around a no go zone on your own. [/quote]

Here’s the thing: I am sympathetic to your point, and PRCalDude’s point, that so-called multi-culturalism discourages assimilation in immigrant communities by encouraging diversity.

I also feel that individual religious or cultural preferences are innocuous insofar as they do not conflict with the core (classical) liberal values upon which constitutional republics are founded, and insofar as they do not represent an obstacle to a certain minimum cultural homogeneity that is necessary to bind a people together as citizens.

And perhaps specifically advertising and catering to a minority by going out of one’s way to show how they can more thoroughly apply their culture is a poor way to encourage immigrants to become Britons rather than Arabs (or Africans, or Spaniards, etc) who merely take residence in Great Britain.

But such an assessment would be attacking the argument on its own terms, which the article does not seem to do; rather, the sensationalism manufactures a new, overt danger (“Sharia Law to be Used in Britain! News of the Invasion at 10!”) which has the effect of masking the more subtle cultural difficulties that underly immigration and modern forms of liberal tolerance.

Further, the sensationalism limits further discussion, because once the initial shock has worn off and people recognize that the strongest version of the claim is untrue, those cultural issues will only seem petty - if they are even noticed. And conservatives end up looking like hate-mongers because they have to trump-up the charges to make the case.

30

[quote]Sifu wrote:
nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Whose law will prevail? I think we know the answer to that. Those who are more zealous for their law will prevail.

Overreacting to media-manufactured non-stories does not increase conservative credibility.

I understand that you are trying to make a point, and as such you will take any springboard that presents itself; but perhaps if you limited yourself to real issues that accurately represent a cultural threat you would convince more people.

This is an important story because the muslims in Britain live apart from the rest of society. When there are members of the establishment endorsing them setting up a seperate legal system it is a story.

If you think it isn’t I suggest you go over there sometime and go walking around a no go zone on your own. [/quote]

http://www.uncitral.org/uncitral/en/index.html

This is the link to UNCITRAL, the organization that brought us UN trade law.

It is often used, it uses private judges and the verdicts are binding for both parties if they agreed that that their trade disputes are to be dealt with that way.

So, all of this is really nothing new and free individuals can choose to use any set of rules they want, within the limits of the law.

So where´s the problem?

31

I actually wasn’t making a point about multi-culturalism. The Hindus and other non-Muslims that come to Britain may not be “indigenous,” but they will assimilate over time. They’re not there to be superior. Islam is.

32

The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.

33

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them. [/quote]

Do you believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?

Normally that would come off as an unfair caricature… but you seem to believe that moderate Islam is impossible.

34

[quote]nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.

Do you believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?

Normally that would come off as an unfair caricature… but you seem to believe that moderate Islam is impossible.[/quote]

There is no moderate Islam. It’s not an unfair caricature - it’s the truth.

The only good Muslim is a Muslim living in his own country, where the problems he creates are his own, not everyone else’s.

35

[quote]nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.

EDIT.

So you believe moderate Islam is impossible. What would you have done about it?

And still, making things up is not the way to impress one’s audience over the long-term.[/quote]

I’m not making anything up.

36

[quote]nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.

Do you believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?

Normally that would come off as an unfair caricature… but you seem to believe that moderate Islam is impossible.[/quote]

Well if there is such a thing as a moderate islam, then it is being quashed with a vengeance. No I can’t prove it, it is my own observation. No, I don’t hate them, but I don’t understand their hate and I do resent it.

37

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.

Do you believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?

Normally that would come off as an unfair caricature… but you seem to believe that moderate Islam is impossible.

There is no moderate Islam. It’s not an unfair caricature - it’s the truth.

The only good Muslim is a Muslim living in his own country, where the problems he creates are his own, not everyone else’s. [/quote]

I sense the struggle here is that one party, wants to believe in the overall goodness of people who are being tarnished by the actions of a few. The other side sees that while the former may be truemost of the time, it is not the case with islam.

I want nephorm to be right, but my observation tells me that PRCal may have the more accurate view of the situation…

A moderate is seemingly the muslim who really doesn’t follow to tenets of his religion, and the extremist the one who does.

This is what is striking to me about global islam in general…They become very upset about the stupidest things and express outrage and do violence when they are offended. When somebody truly perverts their religion, by murder, terror, property destruction, etc. The community is dead silent in protest and even celebrate these abominations to their religion and God. It’s a crying shame but how much is the world going to take? The rest of the world is called on to be tolerant, but that same word is unfamiliar to them.

38

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I’m not making anything up. [/quote]

I didn’t say you were, it was in the context of this article.

39

[quote]pat wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
nephorm wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The cultural difficulties are encased in Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 and are intractable. This is something many conservatives don’t seem to get, either due to willful blindness or benighted optimism. Either way, the record of history is against them.

Do you believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?

Normally that would come off as an unfair caricature… but you seem to believe that moderate Islam is impossible.

There is no moderate Islam. It’s not an unfair caricature - it’s the truth.

The only good Muslim is a Muslim living in his own country, where the problems he creates are his own, not everyone else’s.

I sense the struggle here is that one party, wants to believe in the overall goodness of people who are being tarnished by the actions of a few. The other side sees that while the former may be truemost of the time, it is not the case with islam.

I want nephorm to be right, but my observation tells me that PRCal may have the more accurate view of the situation…

A moderate is seemingly the muslim who really doesn’t follow to tenets of his religion, and the extremist the one who does.

This is what is striking to me about global islam in general…They become very upset about the stupidest things and express outrage and do violence when they are offended. When somebody truly perverts their religion, by murder, terror, property destruction, etc. The community is dead silent in protest and even celebrate these abominations to their religion and God. It’s a crying shame but how much is the world going to take? The rest of the world is called on to be tolerant, but that same word is unfamiliar to them.[/quote]

By no means take my word for it. Open the canonical texts of Islam and examine them for yourself. Figure out how it’s understood by Muslims themselves.

The thing I’ve just suggested is what Westerners refuse to do - the due diligence.

40

[quote]pat wrote:
…

I want nephorm to be right, but my observation tells me that PRCal may have the more accurate view of the situation…

A moderate is seemingly the muslim who really doesn’t follow to tenets of his religion, and the extremist the one who does.

This is what is striking to me about global islam in general…They become very upset about the stupidest things and express outrage and do violence when they are offended. When somebody truly perverts their religion, by murder, terror, property destruction, etc. The community is dead silent in protest and even celebrate these abominations to their religion and God. It’s a crying shame but how much is the world going to take? The rest of the world is called on to be tolerant, but that same word is unfamiliar to them.[/quote]

Good post.