Shall I Start My Cycle?

Pharma
21

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Dave1188 wrote:
So essentially my natural test will not be fully recovered by the end of a 8 weeks stasis.Just trying to figure out if it would make a diffrence to come all the way off and stay off for a month or 2 or just keep the party goin. guide me jj (:

The stasis part of the plan is more to do with normalising levels of, and sensitivity to, certain critical hormones/proteins in readiness for the taper.

Things such as cortisol, estrogen, SHBG, etc.

It is only during the taper that you begin to ‘challenge’ your HPTA into producing LH and FSH once again, to stimulate the testes into trickling out test.

Prisoner has stated that once you complete the taper part of the protocol (and not before), you can go on again with relative impunity.

Bushy[/quote]

Remember however, i wasnt using 100mg a week for those 4 weeks, i was doing 50mg a WEEK!

Anyway, its done now!

jj

22

Good luck with this one, JJ. I hope you make some great gains.

I’m goind on holiday for a week, but I’ll be able to check back in via my pda phone, so please keep me/us posted!!!

23

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Dave1188 wrote:
So essentially my natural test will not be fully recovered by the end of a 8 weeks stasis.Just trying to figure out if it would make a diffrence to come all the way off and stay off for a month or 2 or just keep the party goin. guide me jj (:

The stasis part of the plan is more to do with normalising levels of, and sensitivity to, certain critical hormones/proteins in readiness for the taper.

Things such as cortisol, estrogen, SHBG, etc.

It is only during the taper that you begin to ‘challenge’ your HPTA into producing LH and FSH once again, to stimulate the testes into trickling out test.

Prisoner has stated that once you complete the taper part of the protocol (and not before), you can go on again with relative impunity.

Bushy[/quote]

you a saint lol just what i was looking for

24

[quote] JJ wrote:
my god. i am NOT going to repeat myself again.

Please read my posts and re-assess my level of understanding to my decision please.
I am perfectly aware of that. ffs.[/quote]

JJ speaking as your friend I think some people might question your level of understanding. It would seem you know what to do but then you turn around and don’t do it.
In the past week or two you created a whole bunch of threads that quite frankly puzzled me a lot in terms of their theme and content.

You started this thread asking a question. Presently, you have given your own answer by re-starting. I too would have advised you against doing what you are now doing. That’s water under the bridge now.

At the risk of speaking out of school, I would add that yes you have contributed some good and informative posts. [Holy Smokes you’ve made more posts in the past 2 months than I have in 4 years] However, just because you have a high post count that does not grant you some kind of walk on water status. I can remember back when you joined and you had the big black dude doing curls as your pic [I don’t know his name sorry Martinez?] I can remember being very underwhelmed with your questions and answers. Over time you have shown yourself much better and though I don’t visit the BB forum I understand you drop good knowledge in there.

My point with this friendly chastisment [perhaps I should have PM’d this?] is that for all your knowledge and personal experience with cycle history et al, at times you seem to not have all the answers shall we say. I know I’ve said to you before about re-inventing the wheel. Sometimes I truly don’t understand why you ask the questions you do given the knowledge and experience you have. In turn I don’t under what has transpired in this thread with your thinking to re-gear up. Just as I didn’t totally understand and follow your whole next cycle will be tren, no it won’t, yes it will, no it won’t ordeal.

I hope this does not come off as a personal attack but rather some constructive suggestions to get your thoughts together a bit better and a bit less dazed and confused. You know I respect you and your opinion. I just don’t wanna see you going down a road to less than ideal situations

25

JJ’s goin to die ):

26

At this point you have let the esters run down some in your system. You still have above physiological levels of testosterone in your system. You have zero HPTA recovery. Essentially, if you go back on now for another 3 months it will be similar to using AAS for 7 months without a break as far as HPTA suppression is concerned. Likely also that your system will not respond as well to the drugs as it would if you had done a proper taper followed by SERM therapy and a short break. If you go on now you will have a more difficult time recovering when you finally come off. Many in that situation simply chose to “blast and cruise” at that point, which is probably not a place where you want to be unless you plan to become a pro. A number of unfavorable changes will happen to you over an extended period of AAS use.

At testosterone levels above 400 - 500 mg/wk collagen synthesis is reduced, blood lipid ratios fall into an unfavorable range and ratio, liver and renal stress is elevated, cortisol levels are increased. These affects are in addition to severe HPTA shut down. Using an additional compound, depending on which it is, probably exacerbates this condition. Now this all sounds very serious. What I can tell you is that many many bodybuilders that I have known over the years including myself have done 6 month or more cycles and came away from it alive and healthy. That is not to say that there were not problems when it came time to come off of the drugs. I’m well into my 40’s and did something similar about a 15 years ago when PCT was in its infancy. PCT was essentially a test taper. This followed by a period of AAS abstinence of many months. The crash was bad… dramatic drop in size and strength, loss of libido for many months and so on. This is pretty typical. SERMS would have probably made a difference.

If it were me I would not jump back on. I would do similar to what Bushy suggests. Finish the taper the right way and use a SERM for 3-4 weeks. Or skip the taper at this point, wait 2 weeks, then start SERM therapy. You wont lose much at all as long as your HPTA is intact into the protocol. Then if you chose, go back to it. That being said, one of the best rules of thumb is time off = time on + PCT. So in a perfect world you would stay off 12-16 weeks after your PCT to normalize.

27

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
At this point you have let the esters run down some in your system. You still have above physiological levels of testosterone in your system. You have zero HPTA recovery. Essentially, if you go back on now for another 3 months it will be similar to using AAS for 7 months without a break as far as HPTA suppression is concerned. Likely also that your system will not respond as well to the drugs as it would if you had done a proper taper followed by SERM therapy and a short break. If you go on now you will have a more difficult time recovering when you finally come off. Many in that situation simply chose to “blast and cruise” at that point, which is probably not a place where you want to be unless you plan to become a pro. A number of unfavorable changes will happen to you over an extended period of AAS use. At testosterone levels above 400 - 500 mg/wk collagen synthesis is reduced, blood lipid ratios fall into an unfavorable range and ratio, liver and renal stress is elevated, cortisol levels are increased. These affects are in addition to severe HPTA shut down. Using an additional compound, depending on which it is, probably exacerbates this condition. Now this all sounds very serious. What I can tell you is that many many bodybuilders that I have known over the years including myself have done 6 month or more cycles and came away from it alive and healthy. That is not to say that there were not problems when it came time to come off of the drugs. I’m well into my 40’s and did something similar about a 15 years ago when PCT was in its infancy. PCT was essentially a test taper. This followed by a period of AAS abstinence of many months. The crash was bad… dramatic drop in size and strength, loss of libido for many months and so on. This is pretty typical. SERMS would have probably made a difference.

If it were me I would not jump back on. I would do similar to what Bushy suggests. Finish the taper the right way and use a SERM for 3-4 weeks. Or skip the taper at this point, wait 2 weeks, then start SERM therapy. You wont lose much at all as long as your HPTA is intact into the protocol. Then if you chose, go back to it. That being said, one of the best rules of thumb is time off = time on + PCT. So in a perfect world you would stay off 12-16 weeks after your PCT to normalize. [/quote]

Hell of a post pickapeck.

28

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
At this point you have let the esters run down some in your system. You still have above physiological levels of testosterone in your system. You have zero HPTA recovery. Essentially, if you go back on now for another 3 months it will be similar to using AAS for 7 months without a break as far as HPTA suppression is concerned. Likely also that your system will not respond as well to the drugs as it would if you had done a proper taper followed by SERM therapy and a short break. If you go on now you will have a more difficult time recovering when you finally come off. Many in that situation simply chose to “blast and cruise” at that point, which is probably not a place where you want to be unless you plan to become a pro. A number of unfavorable changes will happen to you over an extended period of AAS use. At testosterone levels above 400 - 500 mg/wk collagen synthesis is reduced, blood lipid ratios fall into an unfavorable range and ratio, liver and renal stress is elevated, cortisol levels are increased. These affects are in addition to severe HPTA shut down. Using an additional compound, depending on which it is, probably exacerbates this condition. Now this all sounds very serious. What I can tell you is that many many bodybuilders that I have known over the years including myself have done 6 month or more cycles and came away from it alive and healthy. That is not to say that there were not problems when it came time to come off of the drugs. I’m well into my 40’s and did something similar about a 15 years ago when PCT was in its infancy. PCT was essentially a test taper. This followed by a period of AAS abstinence of many months. The crash was bad… dramatic drop in size and strength, loss of libido for many months and so on. This is pretty typical. SERMS would have probably made a difference.

If it were me I would not jump back on. I would do similar to what Bushy suggests. Finish the taper the right way and use a SERM for 3-4 weeks. Or skip the taper at this point, wait 2 weeks, then start SERM therapy. You wont lose much at all as long as your HPTA is intact into the protocol. Then if you chose, go back to it. That being said, one of the best rules of thumb is time off = time on + PCT. So in a perfect world you would stay off 12-16 weeks after your PCT to normalize. [/quote]

Fantastic post - thanks alot… ill going to the PM’s with this…

'ppreciate that pickerpeck. Good post and great info. thanks again!

29

I read your post… and i understand what you are saying. I have been rash, and stupid.

I want to tell you the state of my HPTA as it stands, and also let you know what i plan to do on your and pickerpecks advice.

So… i tooka shot of each the other day - i have had no more and intend to, i am going to stasis for 4 at 100mg, then do the regular taper… i will be taking na decent amount of time off too. I AM expecting to have problems you see, and i am expecting to be with my wife again soon, we have been apart for 3-4 months now, and i REALLY dont want to be ‘low’ when i’m with her… not straight away!

The thing is, in 2007 i ran one of my various deca and proviron cycles, and the deca was making it harder and harder to recover each time… i took a good 8 months off. … with zero libido following an extended nolvadex PCT. it was hell, both on me and my then GF who thought i thought was fat! lol!

I decided, fuck it, and went on again, deca and proviron, for the gains but also a rest from the low libido… during this time i was keeping muscle, gaining even, fat was controlled and low - 11-13%, emotions pretty stable… just libido. this leads me to think the progestin had some other effect other than aggrivating existing estrogen to cause an extended shutdown… anyway,

So i did another cycle as i mentioned, and sure enough libido returned and went - as i am fairly used to.

To cut a long 18month story short, i am seriously considering at 28 to go onto TRT and if not prescribed due to my age, then self med. I KNOW this is a life sentance to the shit, but right now i cant see an alternative.
I CANT have zero libido with my wife, after all this time apart (she was in rehab in the states) she (and I) really need to be getting it on, not to mention that for the majority of our time together last year, it was a no go. This was due to many reasons, methadone, heroin too…

But what do you think saps? I am sure you will agree that coming off and tapering properly is the better idea, but what do you think i should do? I mean… blast and cruise or what? it WOULD help with many life issues and with libido which has been a massive burden for so long now. Plus it would be great for competing which i am going to be doing next year…

Joe

(I know my thread was unsuitable for public forum, and i know it seemed i was being flaky - that wasnt the case, i was trying to see all sides of that as well as the different options for which cycle next to make the best decision for me. But you posted about that, and i took that in.)

30

[quote]saps wrote:
JJ wrote:
my god. i am NOT going to repeat myself again.

Please read my posts and re-assess my level of understanding to my decision please.
I am perfectly aware of that. ffs.

JJ speaking as your friend I think some people might question your level of understanding. It would seem you know what to do but then you turn around and don’t do it.
In the past week or two you created a whole bunch of threads that quite frankly puzzled me a lot in terms of their theme and content.

You started this thread asking a question. Presently, you have given your own answer by re-starting. I too would have advised you against doing what you are now doing. That’s water under the bridge now.

At the risk of speaking out of school, I would add that yes you have contributed some good and informative posts. [Holy Smokes you’ve made more posts in the past 2 months than I have in 4 years] However, just because you have a high post count that does not grant you some kind of walk on water status. I can remember back when you joined and you had the big black dude doing curls as your pic [I don’t know his name sorry Martinez?] I can remember being very underwhelmed with your questions and answers. Over time you have shown yourself much better and though I don’t visit the BB forum I understand you drop good knowledge in there.

My point with this friendly chastisment [perhaps I should have PM’d this?] is that for all your knowledge and personal experience with cycle history et al, at times you seem to not have all the answers shall we say. I know I’ve said to you before about re-inventing the wheel. Sometimes I truly don’t understand why you ask the questions you do given the knowledge and experience you have. In turn I don’t under what has transpired in this thread with your thinking to re-gear up. Just as I didn’t totally understand and follow your whole next cycle will be tren, no it won’t, yes it will, no it won’t ordeal.

I hope this does not come off as a personal attack but rather some constructive suggestions to get your thoughts together a bit better and a bit less dazed and confused. You know I respect you and your opinion. I just don’t wanna see you going down a road to less than ideal situations[/quote]

I have sent you a PM… but just to clear some things up on the public forum.

For one, i know who victor martinez is, and i did then, i just didnt recognize him in that picture… he looks much bigger IMO!

Two, i wasnt all “should i… shouldnt i”? that name was given by the mods, after i called it “Shit…” lol!
I was simply trying to gain enough different opinions to make the best decision, in the first thread… no-one answered me and it was hi-jacked. So i made another more specific thread.

As for when i was choosing my cycle, i never said i was going to choose Tren, you mentioned that before and i chose not to correct you, but seeing as you bring it up… I came to the decison that i would be using it at some point, and it would be after i have gotten all traces of 19-NOR from my system. As i remember, that comment was to you - so maybe you forgot the conversation.

I have never assumed or requested some kind of walk on water status on the back of my post count! It means fuck all! I may ask for respect that i deserve from advice or opinion, and if i am wrong or mistaken more often than not i will admit as such.
I expect nothing based on post count. I hold no value to post count, it seems many do as it is constantly noted that i have a high count. So what? I have fuck all else to do?! it doesnt mean anything other than the fact i have more time on my hands than i should!

You may remember a point where i was shyer, quieter and “underwhelming” but TBH, that was just while i felt out the current knowledge and attitude in this forum - the FIRST bodybuilding forum i posted on as a matter of fact.

I have not macically accrued this knowledge over the past 2 months from coping or imitating (as seems to be the suggestion) but simply “came out of my shell” as it were…
I am like that IRL too… i am no different here than IRL, just as crazy, scatty, all over the place and ready to help. i work in the fitness industry, customer service is my bread and butter - i simply enjoy helping others as much as possible. it is my personality.

I am not having a go, i respect you immensely as you know, i have PM’ed you with some more personal stuff by nature, i just wanted to address some of your concerns/claims/whatever that i really think were mistaked judgements…

But anyway, i would like to learn from all this and feel i have, and move on from it. Draw a line under it so to speak.

Joe

31

JJ
This is actually the kind of semi-serious life issue which transcends our normal daily gear-head questions.
You are facing some important choices regarding how you handle/treat your body’s endocrine system. Clearly the multiple Deca cycles have and are effecting you even now. But what you will have to consider is a lot more than just keeping your size and strength.
I don’t know what kind of openness you have in your relationship with your wife regarding your gear use and libido problem etc. This is not the place to discuss that. But if you can talk to her about that that would be preferrable.
On a personal note, I hid everything from my ex-wife. She knew nothing of my gear usage but she did have to deal with the side effects of my gear usage. When I was under-educated about PCT and simultaneously taking Lexapro [an effective anti-depressant; but also a libidio killer when paired with Deca] I was in a horrible situation. Flash forward to present. I am now with a woman who knows everything about my gear usage and is very supportive of me. She has taken the time [Lord knows I was willing to explain everything to her] to understand just exactly what I’m doing and why and how it will effect me. She knows about the change in my sex drive. Presently its up [pun not intended] but should I succumb to some tren-dick or if I end of needing to use a lot of anastrozole and get sides from that or something she is aware of this and we deal with it accordingly.
JJ this is perhaps not the direction you intended this to go but its a healthy one to explore and be aware of. At 28 I would cringe at the thought of lifetime TRT now. So maybe you have to leave the nor19’s alone. Maybe your tren dream will never come true. Look at the big picture in your life. Make the best decision based on what is most important to you. Sure it’d be fun to give tren a go. But if you have [and you do] a documented history of massive shutdown than that must be a factor you weigh. There are so many products out there to aid your sex-drive et al from proviron to tadalafil to caber to test itself.
Ultimately you probably should see a professional. Get some blood work done. Go over the numbers and see where you are and what you need to do. Do not blindly and without proper education make a decision to go on self-medicated TRT at 28. If you can, keep your wife involved in the process. If she truly is your life partner you will need her aid and support.
I think I ended this post in a much different place from where I started it. I do hope this makes sense on some level. Its 0300 where I am now and I am super tired so my thoughts might be sub-optimal. Bottom Line: As I’ve said to you a few times recently. Don’t rush into a poor decision. Don’t get just to hell with it. Get informed. Talk with your wife [if you can]. See the doctor, get the bloodwork. Once you possess all the information to make a proper decision then [hopefully with your wife’s blessing and consent] begin down whatever path is best.

32

JJ
I see we were typing at the same time literally. I totally get where you are coming from I hope my post above reflects more accurately my genuine concern for you and your situation [having some moderate experience in that type of situation myself].
I certainly don’t intend to come off as heavy handed. I’m inclined to think I’m one of the least judgemental “vets” here. Certainly I was not seeking to disrepute you in any way shape or form.
You know I want to see you succeed at this venture. If my words don’t always reflect that that’s my fault.

Lately there has been so much of the teen scene making such poor snap decisions that it seemed to me for whatever reason you were getting caught up in it. By your own admission maybe you did a little fall into the rush for results.
Anyway, whatever help I can be with anything you know I will do my best. Again, I’ve kinda been down this road you are standing before now. Just wanna see you come out with a positive result.

33

Thanks man.

I’l PM.

34

[quote]saps wrote:
JJ
This is actually the kind of semi-serious life issue which transcends our normal daily gear-head questions.
You are facing some important choices regarding how you handle/treat your body’s endocrine system. Clearly the multiple Deca cycles have and are effecting you even now. But what you will have to consider is a lot more than just keeping your size and strength.
I don’t know what kind of openness you have in your relationship with your wife regarding your gear use and libido problem etc. This is not the place to discuss that. But if you can talk to her about that that would be preferrable.
On a personal note, I hid everything from my ex-wife. She knew nothing of my gear usage but she did have to deal with the side effects of my gear usage. When I was under-educated about PCT and simultaneously taking Lexapro [an effective anti-depressant; but also a libidio killer when paired with Deca] I was in a horrible situation. Flash forward to present. I am now with a woman who knows everything about my gear usage and is very supportive of me. She has taken the time [Lord knows I was willing to explain everything to her] to understand just exactly what I’m doing and why and how it will effect me. She knows about the change in my sex drive. Presently its up [pun not intended] but should I succumb to some tren-dick or if I end of needing to use a lot of anastrozole and get sides from that or something she is aware of this and we deal with it accordingly.
JJ this is perhaps not the direction you intended this to go but its a healthy one to explore and be aware of. At 28 I would cringe at the thought of lifetime TRT now. So maybe you have to leave the nor19’s alone. Maybe your tren dream will never come true. Look at the big picture in your life. Make the best decision based on what is most important to you. Sure it’d be fun to give tren a go. But if you have [and you do] a documented history of massive shutdown than that must be a factor you weigh. There are so many products out there to aid your sex-drive et al from proviron to tadalafil to caber to test itself.
Ultimately you probably should see a professional. Get some blood work done. Go over the numbers and see where you are and what you need to do. Do not blindly and without proper education make a decision to go on self-medicated TRT at 28. If you can, keep your wife involved in the process. If she truly is your life partner you will need her aid and support.
I think I ended this post in a much different place from where I started it. I do hope this makes sense on some level. Its 0300 where I am now and I am super tired so my thoughts might be sub-optimal. Bottom Line: As I’ve said to you a few times recently. Don’t rush into a poor decision. Don’t get just to hell with it. Get informed. Talk with your wife [if you can]. See the doctor, get the bloodwork. Once you possess all the information to make a proper decision then [hopefully with your wife’s blessing and consent] begin down whatever path is best.[/quote]

Great post.

Another thing JJ, and this may seem simple and incomplete, get yourself some Clomid. If it were me I would get off the test and get on Clomid for at least 5 weeks. Then take a break from it for a few weeks, get some blood work and if test indicators are still down get back on the clomid for another 4-5 week course. I have seem case study reports of similar situation where a similar course was followed. This would probably get you back on course with the lease crash and least interruption toward your goals.

In my case, and I have had the 19 nor problem too years ago. It’s not a death sentence. You get through it. Clomid is great. It does make one moody for the first couple of weeks but mostly that is dose related.

35

Blood work every 6 months while on.

36

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
saps wrote:
JJ
This is actually the kind of semi-serious life issue which transcends our normal daily gear-head questions.
You are facing some important choices regarding how you handle/treat your body’s endocrine system. Clearly the multiple Deca cycles have and are effecting you even now. But what you will have to consider is a lot more than just keeping your size and strength.
I don’t know what kind of openness you have in your relationship with your wife regarding your gear use and libido problem etc. This is not the place to discuss that. But if you can talk to her about that that would be preferrable.
On a personal note, I hid everything from my ex-wife. She knew nothing of my gear usage but she did have to deal with the side effects of my gear usage. When I was under-educated about PCT and simultaneously taking Lexapro [an effective anti-depressant; but also a libidio killer when paired with Deca] I was in a horrible situation. Flash forward to present. I am now with a woman who knows everything about my gear usage and is very supportive of me. She has taken the time [Lord knows I was willing to explain everything to her] to understand just exactly what I’m doing and why and how it will effect me. She knows about the change in my sex drive. Presently its up [pun not intended] but should I succumb to some tren-dick or if I end of needing to use a lot of anastrozole and get sides from that or something she is aware of this and we deal with it accordingly.
JJ this is perhaps not the direction you intended this to go but its a healthy one to explore and be aware of. At 28 I would cringe at the thought of lifetime TRT now. So maybe you have to leave the nor19’s alone. Maybe your tren dream will never come true. Look at the big picture in your life. Make the best decision based on what is most important to you. Sure it’d be fun to give tren a go. But if you have [and you do] a documented history of massive shutdown than that must be a factor you weigh. There are so many products out there to aid your sex-drive et al from proviron to tadalafil to caber to test itself.
Ultimately you probably should see a professional. Get some blood work done. Go over the numbers and see where you are and what you need to do. Do not blindly and without proper education make a decision to go on self-medicated TRT at 28. If you can, keep your wife involved in the process. If she truly is your life partner you will need her aid and support.
I think I ended this post in a much different place from where I started it. I do hope this makes sense on some level. Its 0300 where I am now and I am super tired so my thoughts might be sub-optimal. Bottom Line: As I’ve said to you a few times recently. Don’t rush into a poor decision. Don’t get just to hell with it. Get informed. Talk with your wife [if you can]. See the doctor, get the bloodwork. Once you possess all the information to make a proper decision then [hopefully with your wife’s blessing and consent] begin down whatever path is best.

Great post.

Another thing JJ, and this may seem simple and incomplete, get yourself some Clomid. If it were me I would get off the test and get on Clomid for at least 5 weeks. Then take a break from it for a few weeks, get some blood work and if test indicators are still down get back on the clomid for another 4-5 week course. I have seem case study reports of similar situation where a similar course was followed. This would probably get you back on course with the lease crash and least interruption toward your goals.

In my case, and I have had the 19 nor problem too years ago. It’s not a death sentence. You get through it. Clomid is great. It does make one moody for the first couple of weeks but mostly that is dose related.[/quote]

Thanks mate, great advice. I am working with mr. saps on this - and i will be doing something along those lines… I was going to use nolvadex, but would you say clomid may be better in this case…? I know that there is very little between them!

JJ