SERM Restart

Pharma TRT
61

I feel like I’m in much better health, so I decided to try and restart again for shits and giggles. 60mg Torem ED for a little over 3 weeks.

LH - 8.1 mIU/ml (1.7-8.6)
FSH - 6 mIU/ml (1.5-12.4)
Test - 244 ng/dl (348-1197) - Pretty much where I was when I started TRT.
E2 - 11.4 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)

Torem worked but it doesn’t look like my nuts are going to produce. If T would have been closer to 400, I probably would have given it a few more weeks to see if it would continue to creep up. I’ve been on TRT almost a year and have used HCG the entire time. I would think the HCG would be enough to keep my nuts active and allow a restart, so don’t see much point in waiting a few more weeks. Look like I’m on it for the long haul.

62

Sorry to hear that, D.

63

Updated Blood work.

40mg Test EOD SubQ
250IU HCG EOd
.5mg Adex MWF
25mg DHEA EOD
Progesterone cream at night.

Total Test - 591 ng/dl (348-1197)
Free Test - 27.3 pg/ml (8.7-25.1)
DHT - 44 ng/dl (30-85)
DHEA - 454.6 ug/dl (102-416)
E2 - 20.2 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)
Progesterone - 0.9 ng/ml (.2-1.4)

I still can’t believe how fast I metabolize T. My SHBG has been really low for quite awhile. Wondering if this has other ill effects.

I’m going experiment a bit. I’m pretty sure my E2 is bouncing around. I get symptoms of low and high E2 on occasion. I’m also fighting body acne that I’ve never had before and thinning hair. I think I’m going to dial it back as far as I can and still feel decent. I’d like to get off the AI all together and reduce other compounds to only what’s absolutely necessary. I use that as my base line. The plan for the next round:

30 mg Test EOD. Was 40mg
250IU HCG Mon and Thurs. Was EOD
25mg DHEA Mon and Thurs. Was EOD
Progesterone Cream at night.
9mg Boron ED
200mg Calcium d-Glucarate ED. Maybe a little extra before and after a night of drinking.
Up Zinc to 100mg ED.

We’ll see where this puts me. If E2 is high (probable) I might try 20mg Test EOD. I really wish I wasn’t metabolizing it so fast. Not sure where it’s going. Not to DHT or E2. If nuts are still good, maybe 125IU HCG.

64

My urologist got into some trouble and retired, so I tried a local endo. Certainly not the most progressive, but he’s really nice and seems ok letting my stay the course. No script for an AI or HGC, but that’s not much of an issue.

30mg Test C EOD
250IU HCG on Mon Wed
25mg DHEA on Mon Wed
Progesterone cream at night
10mg Boron ED
500mg Calcium d-Glucarate

Total T - 473 ng/dl
Free T - 22 pg/ml - try and stay in the 20s
TSH - .61 uIU/ml - lowest it’s ever been.
Free T4 - 1 ng/dl - would rather be at least 1.3-1.8
T3 - 92 ng/dl - would rather be 130-180
Cortisol - 14.1 mcg/dl - A little higher would probably be better. This was probably higher than normal. I was stressed to the max that morning. Passed the stim test with flying colors. got up to 35.

Not the most comprehensive testing. I just ordered my own so I can see where E2 and DHEA-S are. Overall I feel better than at higher T levels. I feel more level. I don’t have great energy overall, but I don’t have any really bad days. Libido is hit or miss. Recently separated/divorced, so I guess that’s ok. Not getting it 4-5 times a week anymore. I don’t feel too bad for no AI.

I think it’s time to shift towards optimizing adrenal and thyroid levels now. I’m not terribly low, so I don’t want to do anything too drastic. Need to do a bit more research on some supplements that might help. Might try pregnenolone cream again. Maybe some desicated thyroid?

65

This is really good info

66

I don’t think I’m able to control E2 with a lower dose and supplements. I haven’t tested yet, but I’m having sides. I take .3mg Adex when they get noticeable and it goes away the next day. I have a test order, just need to go in. Might try low dose aromasin.

Tried to get my hands on Prop, but no luck yet. With low SHBG, would like to give that a shot and see if there’s any difference.

Still have cortisol and thyroid issues. I’ll reassess these after I’m done sorting my insomnia.

67

[quote]dhickey wrote:
I don’t think I’m able to control E2 with a lower dose and supplements. I haven’t tested yet, but I’m having sides. I take .3mg Adex when they get noticeable and it goes away the next day. I have a test order, just need to go in. Might try low dose aromasin.

Tried to get my hands on Prop, but no luck yet. With low SHBG, would like to give that a shot and see if there’s any difference.

Still have cortisol and thyroid issues. I’ll reassess these after I’m done sorting my insomnia.[/quote]

Are you using tab form or Liquid … I have zero experience with either but am curious if that is a tab , how you get .2 or .3 outta it ? What size do they come ?

68

[quote]dhickey wrote:
My urologist got into some trouble and retired, so I tried a local endo. Certainly not the most progressive, but he’s really nice and seems ok letting my stay the course. No script for an AI or HGC, but that’s not much of an issue.

30mg Test C EOD
250IU HCG on Mon Wed
25mg DHEA on Mon Wed
Progesterone cream at night
10mg Boron ED
500mg Calcium d-Glucarate

Total T - 473 ng/dl
Free T - 22 pg/ml - try and stay in the 20s
TSH - .61 uIU/ml - lowest it’s ever been.
Free T4 - 1 ng/dl - would rather be at least 1.3-1.8
T3 - 92 ng/dl - would rather be 130-180
Cortisol - 14.1 mcg/dl - A little higher would probably be better. This was probably higher than normal. I was stressed to the max that morning. Passed the stim test with flying colors. got up to 35.

Not the most comprehensive testing. I just ordered my own so I can see where E2 and DHEA-S are. Overall I feel better than at higher T levels. I feel more level. I don’t have great energy overall, but I don’t have any really bad days. Libido is hit or miss. Recently separated/divorced, so I guess that’s ok. Not getting it 4-5 times a week anymore. I don’t feel too bad for no AI.

I think it’s time to shift towards optimizing adrenal and thyroid levels now. I’m not terribly low, so I don’t want to do anything too drastic. Need to do a bit more research on some supplements that might help. Might try pregnenolone cream again. Maybe some desicated thyroid?[/quote]

How do you do without the DHEA and the progesterone? DHEA makes me feel bad and gives me ED - it tends to mostly get converted into estrogens in men, and DHEA itself should be considered an estrogen (it hits estrogen receptors as strongly as estradiol). And progesterone is a strong DHT inhibitor, which could also reduce libido.

69

What about DHT cream?

This guy from immortalhair fixed all his problems taking proviron (I talk to him sometimes and now he is not on any TRT and doesn’t take proviron anymore, he is totally fixed.)

70

[quote]Macmathews wrote:

[quote]dhickey wrote:
I don’t think I’m able to control E2 with a lower dose and supplements. I haven’t tested yet, but I’m having sides. I take .3mg Adex when they get noticeable and it goes away the next day. I have a test order, just need to go in. Might try low dose aromasin.

Tried to get my hands on Prop, but no luck yet. With low SHBG, would like to give that a shot and see if there’s any difference.

Still have cortisol and thyroid issues. I’ll reassess these after I’m done sorting my insomnia.[/quote]

Are you using tab form or Liquid … I have zero experience with either but am curious if that is a tab , how you get .2 or .3 outta it ? What size do they come ?[/quote]

I’ve been dissolving pills in vodka and using a graduated dropper to dose. I usually do .5mg per ml. So .6ml = .3mg. It’s kind of pain but it works. Doesn’t dissolve perfectly, so you have to shake often. Dropper can get clogged occasionally. I don’t have a script anymore, so when the pills run out, I’ll go back to liquid form of something.

71

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]dhickey wrote:
My urologist got into some trouble and retired, so I tried a local endo. Certainly not the most progressive, but he’s really nice and seems ok letting my stay the course. No script for an AI or HGC, but that’s not much of an issue.

30mg Test C EOD
250IU HCG on Mon Wed
25mg DHEA on Mon Wed
Progesterone cream at night
10mg Boron ED
500mg Calcium d-Glucarate

Total T - 473 ng/dl
Free T - 22 pg/ml - try and stay in the 20s
TSH - .61 uIU/ml - lowest it’s ever been.
Free T4 - 1 ng/dl - would rather be at least 1.3-1.8
T3 - 92 ng/dl - would rather be 130-180
Cortisol - 14.1 mcg/dl - A little higher would probably be better. This was probably higher than normal. I was stressed to the max that morning. Passed the stim test with flying colors. got up to 35.

Not the most comprehensive testing. I just ordered my own so I can see where E2 and DHEA-S are. Overall I feel better than at higher T levels. I feel more level. I don’t have great energy overall, but I don’t have any really bad days. Libido is hit or miss. Recently separated/divorced, so I guess that’s ok. Not getting it 4-5 times a week anymore. I don’t feel too bad for no AI.

I think it’s time to shift towards optimizing adrenal and thyroid levels now. I’m not terribly low, so I don’t want to do anything too drastic. Need to do a bit more research on some supplements that might help. Might try pregnenolone cream again. Maybe some desicated thyroid?[/quote]

How do you do without the DHEA and the progesterone? DHEA makes me feel bad and gives me ED - it tends to mostly get converted into estrogens in men, and DHEA itself should be considered an estrogen (it hits estrogen receptors as strongly as estradiol). And progesterone is a strong DHT inhibitor, which could also reduce libido.
[/quote]

It’s really tough to say what’s working and what’s not. I don’t feel that great in general and am still trying to sort that. Working on insomnia, then I’ll see where I’m at.

Progesterone - I’m not religious about using this and don’t really notice a difference when I don’ use it, other than sleep. I’ve been logging my sleep and what I take that night. It’s early days, but it looks like I do sleep a bit longer when use the progesterone and mag gel.
DHT - 44 ng/dl (30-85) - this is when I was taking it every night.

DHEA - Not taking any at the moment. I don’t feel like this has made any difference in E2 control. If it does, it’s slight. With the Mag oil, I’m towards the top of the range without direct supplementation. If I take 25mg of lef DHEA I’m over the top of the range.

72

[quote]brazilianguy wrote:
What about DHT cream?

This guy from immortalhair fixed all his problems taking proviron (I talk to him sometimes and now he is not on any TRT and doesn’t take proviron anymore, he is totally fixed.)[/quote]

I’m not keen on creams or gels. I’d be really nervous about transfer with young children. After going through what I’ve gone through, I’m not taking any chances with my children’s endocrine systems. If I wasn’t apposed to transdermal hormones, I could get a script for t gel and get DHT up a bit.

I could probably play around with prohormones that increase DHT, but that’s not on the top of the list at the moment. Insomnia first, then I’ll circle back on adrenal and thyroid. Then I can start tweaking other things if I need.

73

I applied a small portion of compounded T cream to my scrotum and it shot by DHT up over the top of the range. Compounding pharmacies put it in a deodorant style dispenser so you don’t have to touch it with your hands. Pretty much eliminates any transfer issues.

74

Cirerecrem: What do you think about this compound that increase your DHT, do it increase your libido?

Dhickey: Do you think your DHT levels are low enough to cause you problems? I’m searching more about DHT some say it’s critical for libido so what would be a good level?

My DHT level is 27 in a range that goes from 25 until 100 ng/mL. I see guys taking proviron and fixing their libido issue and then they don’t take anything else not even TRT.

Can you help me about searching about DHT levels and libido?

75

I have no idea what optimal levels of DHT would be. I’m guessing mine could be a little higher, but I have other issues I need to sort before messing with hormones any more. I’d just be chasing my tail. I might go back to my previous protocol. I felt a little better on that. Insomnia is next on the list. Then I’ll reevaluate cortisol and thyroid. If I can get those things squared away, I’ll try another restart, this time with a more aggressive protocol.

76

[quote]dhickey wrote:

Libido is great after being nonexistent for years, but performance has gone south a bit. [/quote]

Yeah what’s up with that? It happens all the time that guys without ED get on TRT, have an increase in libido, but lose the ability to get it up. Aromatase inhibitors seldom seems to fix that.

77

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]dhickey wrote:

Libido is great after being nonexistent for years, but performance has gone south a bit. [/quote]

Yeah what’s up with that? It happens all the time that guys without ED get on TRT, have an increase in libido, but lose the ability to get it up. Aromatase inhibitors seldom seems to fix that. [/quote]

Not sure. All you can do is take a systematic approach to balancing things out. The AI might be even be the issue. I supposed you could try another one.

I have so many things going on, it’s really hard to say what the culprit is. What I’ve been attempting to do is address a particular level conservatively and move on. I’ve resisted the urge to keep upping T. I’ve gotten it just high enough that I know it’s not an issue. Same with DHEA-S. who knows with E2. Low 20s seems to be best for me.

I take low dose cialis every day, so that part of performance is not an issue. I probably don’t need the cialis anymore, but I like it and feel it’s beneficial for general health. My issue now is finishing. Adrenals, thyroid, neurotransmitters, insomnis, depression? There’s quite a few targets for me.

78

Guys need some URGENT help.

I was on a cycle for 12 weeks of deca tren and whinny, unfortuantly I was involved in a car accident and was hospitalised for 3 months, therefore I was unable to take PCT, now my libido is ZERO I have no desire what so ever. I’ve taken nolvadex 20mgEDand clomid 50mg ED for 4 weeks now alongside with hcg 500iu ED Still NOTHING.
My blood results:

Estradiol : 97 Pmol/L 28- 156
Testosterone: 3.89 Pmol/L 6-30
LH: 0.12. Pmol/L 2- 12
FSH: 0.46. Pmol/L 1-12

quote]KSman wrote:
E2=71, TAKE ACTION!

Lower E2 and fT will increase and that will also make you feel better.

No need to ever test LH/FSH again, might be a cheaper panel.

Increase iodine and see if body temps improve, if they do, that can make a big change in how you feel.

[/quote]

79

Probably get more input if you create your own thread. MIght also be better served in the Steriod forum.

No point in testing LH and FSH while on HCG. At this point I would personally drop all but the HCG and try to get T to a reasonable level, proving your nuts are capable. Are you sure your HCG is good? If so, might try 1000IU ED for a week or two.

Also need to get E2 down. I would swap the SERMS for a good AI. Might as well use Aromasin if you’re eventually going to end up back on clomid.

80

[quote]Sair Cameron wrote:
Guys need some URGENT help.

I was on a cycle for 12 weeks of deca tren and whinny, unfortuantly I was involved in a car accident and was hospitalised for 3 months, therefore I was unable to take PCT, now my libido is ZERO I have no desire what so ever. I’ve taken nolvadex 20mgEDand clomid 50mg ED for 4 weeks now alongside with hcg 500iu ED Still NOTHING.
[/quote]

Nolvadex (and sometimes Clomid) in those amounts will kill libido in many men while on them, and sometimes for a few weeks after stopping them (they take a long time to be eliminated from the body).

(In fact it is a known problem that men who are given Nolvadex for breast cancer don’t tend to adhere to the drug, because they lose libido from it - in other words, they would rather have cancer than be asexual.)