Separation of Church and State

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

Stealing… any day.

And… that’s an ethical dilemma, not a moral choice.
[/quote]

stealing can lead to death, eventually people get sick of it.

You would take part of my life to preserve part of another, the argument you are providing is that the person who shows up at the hospital and cannot pay is worth more than the one who can pay. The person on welfare is worth more then the one working. and this goes on through all of your entitlement programs.

Teh person working essentially gives part of their life for the property they attain, whether financial, or other. That can be valued or weighed against a specific portion of their life. And you are saying it is ok to force them to give up part of their life for someone else. You are devaluing their life.

And then you wonder why people, who actually work and are responsible, so vehemently oppose taxation, entitlements and distribution of wealth. It is a form of involuntary servitude or slavery. But no you recognize it as good thing.
[/quote]

Straw man much?

Look, don’t be dense. I didn’t say it was a good thing. I only (in a rather obtuse way) suggested that it was a necessary thing.

I know it sucks, but people don’t like watching other people live while they run the risk of dying. So, if society doesn’t figure out how to provide for the percentage of the population that can’t take care of themselves, these people will take society’s shit without asking. It’s happening right now, in emergency rooms all over the country, and the price of that debacle is almost exactly twice what it would cost us just to provide them with healthcare in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m a work-fare advocate, not a welfare advocate. But, when the discussion is reduced to the myopic realm of solipsistic, individual rights, we can’t even get to such useful topics… witness the last 25 years of public discourse on the topic.
[/quote]

the only reason people can steal from an ER is because the hospitals are legally liable to treat them.

I think people should have to pay for what they use.

If bad debt’s became a criminal offense, it would reduce some abuse. I know not many others would go along with the allowing hospitals to turn away those without means of paying, but there are others ways to ensure people have to be accountable for their actions.

Treat an unpaid bill as it is, stealing. make it a criminal offense.
[/quote]

Sure… debtors’ prisons worked really well in the past. I’m sure this wouldn’t set us up for the kind of massive, top-down class warfare that it has historically.

62

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]AllieD wrote:
I’m all for people practicing their religion freely but I don’t think it has place in politics.[/quote]

Actually, it’s the other way around. Politics has no place in religion. Or education, or health care, or air line security, or defense, or building cars, etc…[/quote]

Stop being reasonable. [/quote]

What should the role of politics be, then?

Note: Honest question, not defending anything.[/quote]

Politics should have no role in the associations of individuals.[/quote]

That doesnt answer my question. What should politics have a role in?[/quote]

The way I see it is that the intent of politics is to coerce us into doing stuff we don’t want to or to prevent us from doing stuff that comes naturally.

The end result of politics is less freedom.
[/quote]

So no politics at all?

I’m not trying to build any strawman arguments against you, I’m seriously wondering what you think the role of politics should idealistically be, if any.

63

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Does Natural Law come from the Bible? And, you’re a bigot.
[/quote]

No rights or morality comes from the bible. Whatever the bible happens to have gotten right (Dont kill or rape or steal) would be true even if the bible never existed, and the stuff the bible got wrong (gays are bad and men rule over women) is wrong irrespective of its inclusion in the bible.

Guy who hears story which is obviously lie and refuses to believe = bigot.

64

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“Perfect moral laws” = laws derived from an ancient magic book filled with impossible tales which have NEVER been duplicated or confirmed EVER, saying that our morals come from a powerful man up in the sky no one has ever been able to prove exists.

Brother Chris, ever wonder why NONE of the ‘miracles’ in the bible happen today? Ever wonder why we never see a video or documentary of someone performing miracles? Did God suddenly stop giving people the ability to speak to animals or fly?

Or maybe, just maybe, none of that shit ever happened and your faith is based on legend and myth rather than historical fact?

Start doing logical backflips to explain why your god was SO heavily involved with humanity in the bible, why god talked directly to so many people and passed stone tablets down and set bushes on fire, but ever since humanity developed a method of testing the validity of statements, no such accounts have ever been confirmed.

“Uh, uh, god sent his son and he died so, um, like, god just said whatever after that. He just decided to stop intervening as egregiously, thats why you read about so many big miracles in the bible and none have happened since global communication became possible!”

That, or your bible is full of lies and nonsense.

Guess you’ll have to tell me I’ll be punished when I die or your life is filled with joy and peace, right?[/quote]

I don’t know what will happen to you when you die, but I know God loves you. And, even though I do have joy and peace, you obviously don’t.

Why don’t you tell us what your actual problem with Christianity, because in your straw man arguments about why Catholics shouldn’t follow their moral convictions while in public office, you have yet to get anything correct.[/quote]

Good job avoiding the question. No miracles or supergodpowers have ever been reliably confirmed because they never happened, and every account of them happening is a lie.

Catholics shouldnt try to pass laws reflecting “moral conviction” based on their nonsense book.

Luckily, most can also form moral convictions based on real things.

65

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Not quite true on both sides.

Pope says condom use justifia"ble at times

Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that condoms can be justified for male prostitutes seeking to stop the spread of HIV.

The statement marks a stunning turnaround for a church that has long opposed condoms and a pontiff who has blamed them for making the AIDS crisis worse."

source:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/11/20/pope-condoms.html[/quote]

I don’t care what the CBC says, if you’ve actually read the book. You’d know that isn’t true.

He never said it was justifiable. You can’t justify anything that is inherently wrong.

Straight from the Vatican: http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/new.php?id=2191&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+catholicex+

This is a good explanation of what the Pope said: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=220:pope-benedict-on-condoms-in-qlight-of-the-worldq&catid=53:cwr2010&Itemid=70

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2010/11/ginger-factor-the-pope-approves-of-condoms/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+splendoroftruth/lNZE+(The+Curt+Jester)

66

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Does Natural Law come from the Bible? And, you’re a bigot.
[/quote]

No rights or morality comes from the bible. Whatever the bible happens to have gotten right (Dont kill or rape or steal) would be true even if the bible never existed, and the stuff the bible got wrong (gays are bad and men rule over women) is wrong irrespective of its inclusion in the bible.

Guy who hears story which is obviously lie and refuses to believe = bigot.

[/quote]

Guy who hears obvious truth and refuses to see that truth and believe it = bigot = you.

67

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“Perfect moral laws” = laws derived from an ancient magic book filled with impossible tales which have NEVER been duplicated or confirmed EVER, saying that our morals come from a powerful man up in the sky no one has ever been able to prove exists.

Brother Chris, ever wonder why NONE of the ‘miracles’ in the bible happen today? Ever wonder why we never see a video or documentary of someone performing miracles? Did God suddenly stop giving people the ability to speak to animals or fly?

Or maybe, just maybe, none of that shit ever happened and your faith is based on legend and myth rather than historical fact?

Start doing logical backflips to explain why your god was SO heavily involved with humanity in the bible, why god talked directly to so many people and passed stone tablets down and set bushes on fire, but ever since humanity developed a method of testing the validity of statements, no such accounts have ever been confirmed.

“Uh, uh, god sent his son and he died so, um, like, god just said whatever after that. He just decided to stop intervening as egregiously, thats why you read about so many big miracles in the bible and none have happened since global communication became possible!”

That, or your bible is full of lies and nonsense.

Guess you’ll have to tell me I’ll be punished when I die or your life is filled with joy and peace, right?[/quote]

I don’t know what will happen to you when you die, but I know God loves you. And, even though I do have joy and peace, you obviously don’t.

Why don’t you tell us what your actual problem with Christianity, because in your straw man arguments about why Catholics shouldn’t follow their moral convictions while in public office, you have yet to get anything correct.[/quote]

Good job avoiding the question. No miracles or supergodpowers have ever been reliably confirmed because they never happened, and every account of them happening is a lie.
[/quote]

Your skepticism is horrible. Because they haven’t been confirmed that means they are a lie? That makes sense. If that was the case the obvious conclusion would be that the event is indeterminable in the case if it happened or not. Not, that it is a lie. Not a very get logician you are.

[quote]
Catholics shouldnt try to pass laws reflecting “moral conviction” based on their nonsense book.

Luckily, most can also form moral convictions based on real things.[/quote]

You still haven’t answered the question where Natural Law came from. I’m not avoiding the question, because Natural Law did not inherently come from the Bible. You don’t want to admit that Catholics have other things at their disposable besides a Bible. We’re not fundamentalist Christians who only use the Bible, ya know. but, you wouldn’t care because you’re a bigot. Willfully ignorant you are, chum. I admire your conviction in your knowledge, lacking as it may, but I don’t admire your unwillingness to look at the facts. They say Catholics are hard headed, won’t be rational. The truth is, I think you are in fact irrational.

68

Sometimes it’s hard to grasp the real vibe of a poster on the internet.
For example, sarcasm can be completely missed on occasion.

So, I’d just like to confirm that you guys are joking around with the name-calling and self-rightousness, right?

69

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]AllieD wrote:

But on a whole other point I just find it somewhat hypocritical that the religious right who tend to argue for more religious influence on policy argue against polices that would help the poor… i mean isn’t that homeboy jesus was all about? slightly confused? I mean if Jesus was alive he would totally be a socialist lol[/quote]

[/quote]

Because Jesus did not order Peter to draw his sword and redistribute money by force?

—> further refrences on how forced virue is not virtue at all see Aristotle.

70

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Does Natural Law come from the Bible? And, you’re a bigot.
[/quote]

No rights or morality comes from the bible. Whatever the bible happens to have gotten right (Dont kill or rape or steal) would be true even if the bible never existed, and the stuff the bible got wrong (gays are bad and men rule over women) is wrong irrespective of its inclusion in the bible.

Guy who hears story which is obviously lie and refuses to believe = bigot.

[/quote]

Guy who hears obvious truth and refuses to see that truth and believe it = bigot = you.[/quote]

What obvious truth is that, Chris?

Obviously, there was a man with superhuman strength who lost that strength when his hair was cut off.

Makes perfect sense. Why would I call that mythology instead of historic fact? I’m so silly.

71

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

Stealing… any day.

And… that’s an ethical dilemma, not a moral choice.
[/quote]

stealing can lead to death, eventually people get sick of it.

You would take part of my life to preserve part of another, the argument you are providing is that the person who shows up at the hospital and cannot pay is worth more than the one who can pay. The person on welfare is worth more then the one working. and this goes on through all of your entitlement programs.

Teh person working essentially gives part of their life for the property they attain, whether financial, or other. That can be valued or weighed against a specific portion of their life. And you are saying it is ok to force them to give up part of their life for someone else. You are devaluing their life.

And then you wonder why people, who actually work and are responsible, so vehemently oppose taxation, entitlements and distribution of wealth. It is a form of involuntary servitude or slavery. But no you recognize it as good thing.
[/quote]

Straw man much?

Look, don’t be dense. I didn’t say it was a good thing. I only (in a rather obtuse way) suggested that it was a necessary thing.

I know it sucks, but people don’t like watching other people live while they run the risk of dying. So, if society doesn’t figure out how to provide for the percentage of the population that can’t take care of themselves, these people will take society’s shit without asking. It’s happening right now, in emergency rooms all over the country, and the price of that debacle is almost exactly twice what it would cost us just to provide them with healthcare in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m a work-fare advocate, not a welfare advocate. But, when the discussion is reduced to the myopic realm of solipsistic, individual rights, we can’t even get to such useful topics… witness the last 25 years of public discourse on the topic.
[/quote]

the only reason people can steal from an ER is because the hospitals are legally liable to treat them.

I think people should have to pay for what they use.

If bad debt’s became a criminal offense, it would reduce some abuse. I know not many others would go along with the allowing hospitals to turn away those without means of paying, but there are others ways to ensure people have to be accountable for their actions.

Treat an unpaid bill as it is, stealing. make it a criminal offense.
[/quote]

Sure… debtors’ prisons worked really well in the past. I’m sure this wouldn’t set us up for the kind of massive, top-down class warfare that it has historically.
[/quote]

Just like the current entitlement programs. Same thing.

I believe the only real way to run a free society is to allow people to be truly free and independent. To succeed or fail. Not to rob them or enslave them to society.

72

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So no politics at all?

I’m not trying to build any strawman arguments against you, I’m seriously wondering what you think the role of politics should idealistically be, if any.[/quote]

You got it. Mind your own business.

73

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Sometimes it’s hard to grasp the real vibe of a poster on the internet.
For example, sarcasm can be completely missed on occasion.

So, I’d just like to confirm that you guys are joking around with the name-calling and self-rightousness, right?

[/quote]

Not been around PWI very long have ya bud?

74

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Sometimes it’s hard to grasp the real vibe of a poster on the internet.
For example, sarcasm can be completely missed on occasion.

So, I’d just like to confirm that you guys are joking around with the name-calling and self-rightousness, right?

[/quote]

75

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

Stealing… any day.

And… that’s an ethical dilemma, not a moral choice.
[/quote]

stealing can lead to death, eventually people get sick of it.

You would take part of my life to preserve part of another, the argument you are providing is that the person who shows up at the hospital and cannot pay is worth more than the one who can pay. The person on welfare is worth more then the one working. and this goes on through all of your entitlement programs.

Teh person working essentially gives part of their life for the property they attain, whether financial, or other. That can be valued or weighed against a specific portion of their life. And you are saying it is ok to force them to give up part of their life for someone else. You are devaluing their life.

And then you wonder why people, who actually work and are responsible, so vehemently oppose taxation, entitlements and distribution of wealth. It is a form of involuntary servitude or slavery. But no you recognize it as good thing.
[/quote]

Straw man much?

Look, don’t be dense. I didn’t say it was a good thing. I only (in a rather obtuse way) suggested that it was a necessary thing.

I know it sucks, but people don’t like watching other people live while they run the risk of dying. So, if society doesn’t figure out how to provide for the percentage of the population that can’t take care of themselves, these people will take society’s shit without asking. It’s happening right now, in emergency rooms all over the country, and the price of that debacle is almost exactly twice what it would cost us just to provide them with healthcare in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m a work-fare advocate, not a welfare advocate. But, when the discussion is reduced to the myopic realm of solipsistic, individual rights, we can’t even get to such useful topics… witness the last 25 years of public discourse on the topic.
[/quote]

the only reason people can steal from an ER is because the hospitals are legally liable to treat them.

I think people should have to pay for what they use.

If bad debt’s became a criminal offense, it would reduce some abuse. I know not many others would go along with the allowing hospitals to turn away those without means of paying, but there are others ways to ensure people have to be accountable for their actions.

Treat an unpaid bill as it is, stealing. make it a criminal offense.
[/quote]

Sure… debtors’ prisons worked really well in the past. I’m sure this wouldn’t set us up for the kind of massive, top-down class warfare that it has historically.
[/quote]

Just like the current entitlement programs. Same thing.

I believe the only real way to run a free society is to allow people to be truly free and independent. To succeed or fail. Not to rob them or enslave them to society.
[/quote]

When you figure out how to make that happen, let me know.

76

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Bullmoose33 wrote:
Kennedy had the right idea.[/quote]

You mean the magic book about men making large bodies of water suddenly defy all known laws of physics SHOULDNT be what our entire legal system is based on?

How dare you. You’ll be set on fire for all eternity when you die - lets hope preying on your fear of the unknown will terrorize you to my way of thinking![/quote]You just may get it one day, but not today.
[/quote]

You are the worst condescending asshole on T-Nation. Never ask me what problem I have with christians, ever.[/quote]

Sooooooooo, what’s you problems with Christians? Is it just Christians you hate?

I am 1000000% for separation of church and state, btw. It has never worked for the greater good.

77

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

Stealing… any day.

And… that’s an ethical dilemma, not a moral choice.
[/quote]

stealing can lead to death, eventually people get sick of it.

You would take part of my life to preserve part of another, the argument you are providing is that the person who shows up at the hospital and cannot pay is worth more than the one who can pay. The person on welfare is worth more then the one working. and this goes on through all of your entitlement programs.

Teh person working essentially gives part of their life for the property they attain, whether financial, or other. That can be valued or weighed against a specific portion of their life. And you are saying it is ok to force them to give up part of their life for someone else. You are devaluing their life.

And then you wonder why people, who actually work and are responsible, so vehemently oppose taxation, entitlements and distribution of wealth. It is a form of involuntary servitude or slavery. But no you recognize it as good thing.
[/quote]

Straw man much?

Look, don’t be dense. I didn’t say it was a good thing. I only (in a rather obtuse way) suggested that it was a necessary thing.

I know it sucks, but people don’t like watching other people live while they run the risk of dying. So, if society doesn’t figure out how to provide for the percentage of the population that can’t take care of themselves, these people will take society’s shit without asking. It’s happening right now, in emergency rooms all over the country, and the price of that debacle is almost exactly twice what it would cost us just to provide them with healthcare in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m a work-fare advocate, not a welfare advocate. But, when the discussion is reduced to the myopic realm of solipsistic, individual rights, we can’t even get to such useful topics… witness the last 25 years of public discourse on the topic.
[/quote]

the only reason people can steal from an ER is because the hospitals are legally liable to treat them.

I think people should have to pay for what they use.

If bad debt’s became a criminal offense, it would reduce some abuse. I know not many others would go along with the allowing hospitals to turn away those without means of paying, but there are others ways to ensure people have to be accountable for their actions.

Treat an unpaid bill as it is, stealing. make it a criminal offense.
[/quote]

Sure… debtors’ prisons worked really well in the past. I’m sure this wouldn’t set us up for the kind of massive, top-down class warfare that it has historically.
[/quote]

Just like the current entitlement programs. Same thing.

I believe the only real way to run a free society is to allow people to be truly free and independent. To succeed or fail. Not to rob them or enslave them to society.
[/quote]

When you figure out how to make that happen, let me know. [/quote]

Make me King of America, and I’ll make it happen :slight_smile:

78

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So no politics at all?

I’m not trying to build any strawman arguments against you, I’m seriously wondering what you think the role of politics should idealistically be, if any.[/quote]

You got it. Mind your own business.[/quote]

Then who decides on laws?

79

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Bullmoose33 wrote:
Kennedy had the right idea.[/quote]

You mean the magic book about men making large bodies of water suddenly defy all known laws of physics SHOULDNT be what our entire legal system is based on?

How dare you. You’ll be set on fire for all eternity when you die - lets hope preying on your fear of the unknown will terrorize you to my way of thinking![/quote]You just may get it one day, but not today.
[/quote]

You are the worst condescending asshole on T-Nation. Never ask me what problem I have with christians, ever.[/quote]

Sooooooooo, what’s you problems with Christians? Is it just Christians you hate?

I am 1000000% for separation of church and state, btw. It has never worked for the greater good.[/quote]

They’re so right and I’m so wrong, it makes me scared and angry.

Clearly.

80

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Bullmoose33 wrote:
Kennedy had the right idea.[/quote]

You mean the magic book about men making large bodies of water suddenly defy all known laws of physics SHOULDNT be what our entire legal system is based on?

How dare you. You’ll be set on fire for all eternity when you die - lets hope preying on your fear of the unknown will terrorize you to my way of thinking![/quote]You just may get it one day, but not today.
[/quote]

You are the worst condescending asshole on T-Nation. Never ask me what problem I have with christians, ever.[/quote]

Sooooooooo, what’s you problems with Christians? Is it just Christians you hate?

I am 1000000% for separation of church and state, btw. It has never worked for the greater good.[/quote]

They’re so right and I’m so wrong, it makes me scared and angry.

Clearly.[/quote]

Self righteousness then? I can understand that…