Separation of Church and State

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Chris - tried talking to Tirib about this, he seems to have dropped the line of conversation, so I’ll ask you.

If you and someone else both believe in mutually exclusive things, how do you come to an understanding or solution other than each of you saying “No, I’M right.” over and over again?

The reason us silly atheists on here keep harping about reason is that reason is the way people can communicate between each other. Your subjective beliefs and experiences mean nothing to me, and mine mean nothing to you. But if we’re going to be affecting each other, we need to find a way to communicate that means something to the both of us.[/quote]Thus saith Chris: “The Roman Catholic Church, as Christ’s singularly instituted authority on Earth, tells me what I believe.” Thus saith Trib: “The living Word of God in my heart bears witness to the written word of God in my hands.” Thus saith CnP: “That tells me absolutely nothing.”. Chris responds with endless RCC “stuff” proceeding from the assumption that you and he share a common foundational method for discovering truth. A thing I must regretfully agree with him on.

Trib responds with endless quotations from the bible and commensurate declarations of the pointlessness of wrangling with unbelievers proceeding from the assumption that holy writ is correct in it’s assertion of the true deadness of fallen man. CnP responds with “I told ya so!!!”

302

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Chris - tried talking to Tirib about this, he seems to have dropped the line of conversation, so I’ll ask you.

If you and someone else both believe in mutually exclusive things, how do you come to an understanding or solution other than each of you saying “No, I’M right.” over and over again?

The reason us silly atheists on here keep harping about reason is that reason is the way people can communicate between each other. Your subjective beliefs and experiences mean nothing to me, and mine mean nothing to you. But if we’re going to be affecting each other, we need to find a way to communicate that means something to the both of us.[/quote]

Reason, I like reason. One of the reasons (there is 10,000 reasons, but this is one) why I am a Catholic is that a motto of the Catholic Church is “faith & reason.” We come to our belief through faith and reason. Just like, almost, everyone who comes to their understanding is through faith and reason, even atheist. You have to have faith in reason, faith in your reasoning faculties, faith in that the stated facts are truly a positive and not a false positive.

However, Tirib holds some beliefs that I don’t necessarily hold. I believe we have free will, of course we have some habits, ticks, twitches, and patterns. However, we still have free will. Tirib seems to not believe in free will. He also seems to take the stance that it’s all faith or all reason when it comes to God. I take the stance that it is faith and reason.

I think this has to stem with the fact that he seems to hold there is not a physical church which wrote his book, just a group of guys that wrote it and somehow the right books got put together.

I don’t, I can reason and see that historically there was a Church which was established around the time of Jesus. This church stands 2000 years later, this Church has converted entire pagan nations, and the men that wrote the NT were part of this Church. That they didn’t write everything down in the Bible, that Jesus taught to them, because their Church held the knowledge orally and in other written documents.

So, I am able to reason and use my faith.

However, in a purely academic environment I am considered a highly analytical and rational person by my professors. I received a 99% (I forgot my last name) on a pre-test (same as the final) for a 400 level honors economics course without taking the class.

303

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Chris - tried talking to Tirib about this, he seems to have dropped the line of conversation, so I’ll ask you.

If you and someone else both believe in mutually exclusive things, how do you come to an understanding or solution other than each of you saying “No, I’M right.” over and over again?

The reason us silly atheists on here keep harping about reason is that reason is the way people can communicate between each other. Your subjective beliefs and experiences mean nothing to me, and mine mean nothing to you. But if we’re going to be affecting each other, we need to find a way to communicate that means something to the both of us.[/quote]Thus saith Chris: “The Roman Catholic Church, as Christ’s singularly instituted authority on Earth, tells me what I believe.” Thus saith Trib: “The living Word of God in my heart bears witness to the written word of God in my hands.” Thus saith CnP: “That tells me absolutely nothing.”. Chris responds with endless RCC “stuff” proceeding from the assumption that you and he share a common foundational method for discovering truth. A thing I must regretfully agree with him on.

Trib responds with endless quotations from the bible and commensurate declarations of the pointlessness of wrangling with unbelievers proceeding from the assumption that holy writ is correct in it’s assertion of the true deadness of fallen man. CnP responds with “I told ya so!!!”

[/quote]

Boy, that was horribly wrong.

304

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You have to have faith in reason, faith in your reasoning faculties, >>>[/quote]Boy is that horribly wrong and does indeed explain everything. Faith, which is the gift of God, resurrects, frees and empowers reason. Not the other way around. Reason is a major component of the image of God in man which like everything else, is IMPOSSIBLE to use to God,s glory UNTIL it is born again into new life. This is where Aquinas, who was indeed a frightening genius, went horribly wrong as well. Don’t worry though. The pagans will be essentially on your side here. With a ringing endorsement like that you must be on the right track.

305

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You have to have faith in reason, faith in your reasoning faculties, >>>[/quote]Boy is that horribly wrong and does indeed explain everything. Faith, which is the gift of God, resurrects, frees and empowers reason. Not the other way around. Reason is a major component of the image of God in man which like everything else, is IMPOSSIBLE to use to God,s glory UNTIL it is born again into new life. This is where Aquinas, who was indeed a frightening genius, went horribly wrong as well. Don’t worry though. The pagans will be essentially on your side here. With a ringing endorsement like that you must be on the right track.
[/quote]

Trib, all you ever say is “I’m right and you’ll be wrong until you agree with me.”

Starting with faith is a really really fucking bad way to start. Really, you have to see this.

If its acceptable to start from a position of faith, whats to stop me from starting from the position that I have the right to kill you? If I believe you intend me harm and the only way to stop you is to take your life, should that be acceptable? Should it be self defense because I believe or have faith that it is, or would I need reason for your death to be considered self defense?

Which brings a subject for you, Sloth, Brother Chris, etc - should any individual’s or group’s belief that their actions are based on orders from God have any affect on the legality or punishment of illegal actions?

306

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Really, you have to see this. >>>[/quote]No I really, REALLY don,t, More later.

307

Wow. I really fell behind here.

308

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Really, you have to see this. >>>[/quote]No I really, REALLY don,t, More later.
[/quote]

No, you really do.

Cause, see, I’ve had a ton of personal experiences that lead me to conclusions opposite of yours and my faith is just as strong. If we both start from “faith” we’ll both simply end up at the same conclusions we started from.

Which, yeah, is fine for an internet forum, and good fun. But sometimes people make laws and vote and stuff. At those times its not ok to just agree to disagree.

309

Your faith is in death. It cannot be otherwise until you are raised together with Christ Jesus in heavenly places. How well I know, I spent 20 years living on your side of the spiritual grave. So this can be our “NO, I’m right” exchange except that I am unshakably persuaded that it is the most high God who is right. Were it not for His free and undeserving mercy I would still be just as dead and just as wrong as you still are. Chained and tattooed to my own warped and self obsessed mind. I am talking about myself and being quite serious. I know who you are. I’m from your hood. I would still be there if the indeed amazing grace of the spotless lamb of God had not rescued. All I had to do was ask and even that was His gift.

310

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You have to have faith in reason, faith in your reasoning faculties, >>>[/quote]Boy is that horribly wrong and does indeed explain everything. Faith, which is the gift of God, resurrects, frees and empowers reason. Not the other way around. Reason is a major component of the image of God in man which like everything else, is IMPOSSIBLE to use to God,s glory UNTIL it is born again into new life. This is where Aquinas, who was indeed a frightening genius, went horribly wrong as well. Don’t worry though. The pagans will be essentially on your side here. With a ringing endorsement like that you must be on the right track.
[/quote]

Um, faith IN God is a gift. Just like reasoning faculties, obviously. And, exactly how did Aquinas go horrible wrong?

The only people that are on my side are Christians. What? Just because I think reason is a good way to communicate between atheist and theist, I’m a pagan now?

311

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Wow. I really fell behind here.[/quote]

Didn’t miss much. Just a lot of people telling me I’m wrong. Even though they may or may not know what they are talking about.

312

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You have to have faith in reason, faith in your reasoning faculties, >>>[/quote]Boy is that horribly wrong and does indeed explain everything. Faith, which is the gift of God, resurrects, frees and empowers reason. Not the other way around. Reason is a major component of the image of God in man which like everything else, is IMPOSSIBLE to use to God,s glory UNTIL it is born again into new life. This is where Aquinas, who was indeed a frightening genius, went horribly wrong as well. Don’t worry though. The pagans will be essentially on your side here. With a ringing endorsement like that you must be on the right track.
[/quote]

Um, faith IN God is a gift. Just like reasoning faculties, obviously. And, exactly how did Aquinas go horrible wrong?

The only people that are on my side are Christians. What? Just because I think reason is a good way to communicate between atheist and theist, I’m a pagan now?[/quote]Forget it. We are not communicating. I shouldn’t have said anything and I didn’t mean to to sound so hostile. Long day and I’m wondering if about a week away from here altogether wouldn’t be a great idea.

313

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You have to have faith in reason, faith in your reasoning faculties, >>>[/quote]Boy is that horribly wrong and does indeed explain everything. Faith, which is the gift of God, resurrects, frees and empowers reason. Not the other way around. Reason is a major component of the image of God in man which like everything else, is IMPOSSIBLE to use to God,s glory UNTIL it is born again into new life. This is where Aquinas, who was indeed a frightening genius, went horribly wrong as well. Don’t worry though. The pagans will be essentially on your side here. With a ringing endorsement like that you must be on the right track.
[/quote]

Um, faith IN God is a gift. Just like reasoning faculties, obviously. And, exactly how did Aquinas go horrible wrong?

The only people that are on my side are Christians. What? Just because I think reason is a good way to communicate between atheist and theist, I’m a pagan now?[/quote]Forget it. We are not communicating. I shouldn’t have said anything and I didn’t mean to to sound so hostile. Long day and I’m wondering if about a week away from here altogether wouldn’t be a great idea.
[/quote]

I’m trying to, but you’re letting this “other person” dictate how you talk to me.

314

Chris do you have an imaginary playmate I haven’t been introduced to or sumthin? I don’t know what you mean.

315

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Chris do you have an imaginary playmate I haven’t been introduced to or sumthin? I don’t know what you mean.[/quote]

You said that someone told you that I was a waste to talk to.

316

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Your faith is in death. It cannot be otherwise until you are raised together with Christ Jesus in heavenly places. How well I know, I spent 20 years living on your side of the spiritual grave. So this can be our “NO, I’m right” exchange except that I am unshakably persuaded that it is the most high God who is right. Were it not for His free and undeserving mercy I would still be just as dead and just as wrong as you still are. Chained and tattooed to my own warped and self obsessed mind. I am talking about myself and being quite serious. I know who you are. I’m from your hood. I would still be there if the indeed amazing grace of the spotless lamb of God had not rescued. All I had to do was ask and even that was His gift.[/quote]

Your faith is in a nonsensical man up in the sky with wizard powers.

Your entire “experience” was nothing but you convincing yourself of nonsense. Yes, yes, you “really really really believe it”, but, seriously? Its still nonsense. No matter how much you’ve deluded yourself to believe it.

Unless you can show some objective evidence of your claims? That something actually changed other than your personal decision to start believing, to consider yourself ‘saved’? Any evidence or reason to believe that its not just something you made up in your head?

See, the fact that you had a christian tell you all about this stuff before it ‘happened’ leads me to believe its all a figment of your imagination. ‘God’ doesnt seem to go around saving people who have never heard of him. Strange, that. Very strange.

317

Religion just freaks me out, might as well be talking about Santa

318

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Chris do you have an imaginary playmate I haven’t been introduced to or sumthin? I don’t know what you mean.[/quote]You said that someone told you that I was a waste to talk to.[/quote]Not like that man =[ I would never consider you a “waste” of any kind Chris. Never. The idea of it being a waste of time to continue arm wrestling over RC’ism does not in any way translate into YOU being a waste to talk to. If I have ever given you the horrible impression that I consider you a “waste” I do hereby ask both yours and God’s forgiveness. That makes me feel terrible that you would think that.

319

[quote]blok wrote:
Religion just freaks me out, might as well be talking about Santa[/quote]

So by your logic, Santa freaks you out?

320

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]blok wrote:
Religion just freaks me out, might as well be talking about Santa[/quote]

So by your logic, Santa freaks you out?[/quote]

An old white man who monitors childen, keeps a list who is “naughty or nice” and climbs down other peoples chimneys while they are sleeping?