Sent Home for Wearing the Flag

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Wearing the flag in and of itself is not offensive in any way. But it certainly can be worn in a manner that is intended to disparage the cultural heritage of someone else. If we were in Germany for instance, wearing the German flag is not incendiary at all. But wearing it to school on Yom Kippur of all days at a school that is predominantly Jewish, when you are known to some as an anti-Semite, is not patriotism and neither was this incident. It’s simply juvenile, possibly racist behavior cloaked in “patriotism”.

As for the illegal immigrant thing, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the demographics of the area before you begin to base your argument on false presumptions. While Morgan Hill has a large Hispanic population, most of the Hispanics in the city come from families who came there generations ago. Further down in Salinas is where there is a large community of immigrants, both legal and illegal, whose parents are not from here.

Again, the real issue here is the misuse of our flag to spread an anti-Mexican message. This is not patriotism and while it is a shame that the kids’ first amendment rights were violated, it is a MUCH larger shame that this is the manner in which those students chose to exercise their rights. The flag does not carry an innately negative message whatsoever, but like virtually anything in this world, it can be misused and in my humble opinion this was a blatant misuse of it.

Trying to drag the illegal immigration issue into this discussion only serves to distract from what really happened in Morgan Hill.[/quote]

First of all, I doubt wearing the German flag would offend Jews, holiday or not. The Nazi flag-definitely, but not the German flag. Germany as a nation is not particularly anti-Semitic, and Germans go to great lengths to distance themselves from the practices and beliefs of the Nazi party. Of course, your analogy is flawed from the start since, at no point in history, has the United States committed an atrocity against those of Mexican descent living within its own borders as citizens. There is nothing about the American flag that should offend any person, whether they be of Mexican descent or not, if they really are an American citizen.

Whether the Hispanics in the area are first-generation or not is irrelevant as the media and amnesty lobby have re-drawn the lines from anti-illegal immigrant to anti-Hispanic. The fact that you are arguing that the AMERICAN FLAG is offensive to AMERICANS because it is somehow disparaging of their Mexican lineage illustrates this perfectly.

Explain to me exactly WHY the American flag would be offensive to American citizens. You’re building a house of cards on a pile of quicksand here.

102

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Wearing the flag in and of itself is not offensive in any way. But it certainly can be worn in a manner that is intended to disparage the cultural heritage of someone else. If we were in Germany for instance, wearing the German flag is not incendiary at all. But wearing it to school on Yom Kippur of all days at a school that is predominantly Jewish, when you are known to some as an anti-Semite, is not patriotism and neither was this incident. It’s simply juvenile, possibly racist behavior cloaked in “patriotism”.

As for the illegal immigrant thing, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the demographics of the area before you begin to base your argument on false presumptions. While Morgan Hill has a large Hispanic population, most of the Hispanics in the city come from families who came there generations ago. Further down in Salinas is where there is a large community of immigrants, both legal and illegal, whose parents are not from here.

Again, the real issue here is the misuse of our flag to spread an anti-Mexican message. This is not patriotism and while it is a shame that the kids’ first amendment rights were violated, it is a MUCH larger shame that this is the manner in which those students chose to exercise their rights. The flag does not carry an innately negative message whatsoever, but like virtually anything in this world, it can be misused and in my humble opinion this was a blatant misuse of it.

Trying to drag the illegal immigration issue into this discussion only serves to distract from what really happened in Morgan Hill.[/quote]

First of all, I doubt wearing the German flag would offend Jews, holiday or not. The Nazi flag-definitely, but not the German flag. Germany as a nation is not particularly anti-Semitic, and Germans go to great lengths to distance themselves from the practices and beliefs of the Nazi party. Of course, your analogy is flawed from the start since, at no point in history, has the United States committed an atrocity against those of Mexican descent living within its own borders as citizens. There is nothing about the American flag that should offend any person, whether they be of Mexican descent or not, if they really are an American citizen.

Whether the Hispanics in the area are first-generation or not is irrelevant as the media and amnesty lobby have re-drawn the lines from anti-illegal immigrant to anti-Hispanic. The fact that you are arguing that the AMERICAN FLAG is offensive to AMERICANS because it is somehow disparaging of their Mexican lineage illustrates this perfectly.

Explain to me exactly WHY the American flag would be offensive to American citizens. You’re building a house of cards on a pile of quicksand here.
[/quote]

Your reading comprehension is lacking, as is your ability to comprehend my analogy. Of course Jews don’t see the German flag as offensive. But Jews may be offended by someone, who has already made clear his anti-Semitism, wearing a German flag on a major holiday celebrating Jewish heritage. The implication is clear.

The same example holds true in Morgan Hill. Here we have a group of students who have made others aware of their disdain for Mexican-Americans and their origins and choose Cinco de Mayo of all days to wear American flags. The flag itself is not offensive; it is the use of it as an inconspicuous means of voicing anti-Hispanic sentiment under the auspices of “patriotism” and “free speech” that is offensive to Americans of Hispanic descent. The flag, like anything else, can be used to spread this sentiment. I am sorry you cannot make the distinction between the flag itself and those who use it inappropriately.

As for this connection you are trying to make between illegal immigration and Cinco de Mayo, there simply isn’t much of one at all. Cinco de Mayo is celebrated primarily in the U.S. and is largely ignored in Mexico. It has been celebrated in California since 1863, the year after the French were defeated by Mexico at Puebla. It is a holiday whose observance originates in California, and other border states to a lesser degree. The proliferation of it in America is not the result of illegal immigration since it is, for all intents and purposes, an American holiday that most in Mexico do not celebrate.

103

There is no issue with my comprehension, rather with your critical thinking skills.

By your logic, it is also possible to claim that the students were attempting to disparage Hispanic students by wearing white t-shirts.

You are taking an issue with implications that you yourself are making.

The KKK totes around American flags all of the time, but I’ve never seen anyone pitch a fit about the flag even though the Klan uses it as a symbol.

Of course, none of this is entirely relevant since the students have every right to express their views, whether those views are politically acceptable or not. You will have a hard time convincing any court that an act as simple and innocent as wearing the flag represents a clear case of intimidation or harassment and therefore is subject to punishment. If the school’s administration was concerned for the safety of the students, then they would be better served by working to foster an environment at the school in which students aren’t faced with physical violence for expressing unpopular views.

104

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
There is no issue with my comprehension, rather with your critical thinking skills.

By your logic, it is also possible to claim that the students were attempting to disparage Hispanic students by wearing white t-shirts.

You are taking an issue with implications that you yourself are making.

The KKK totes around American flags all of the time, but I’ve never seen anyone pitch a fit about the flag even though the Klan uses it as a symbol.

Of course, none of this is entirely relevant since the students have every right to express their views, whether those views are politically acceptable or not. You will have a hard time convincing any court that an act as simple and innocent as wearing the flag represents a clear case of intimidation or harassment and therefore is subject to punishment. If the school’s administration was concerned for the safety of the students, then they would be better served by working to foster an environment at the school in which students aren’t faced with physical violence for expressing unpopular views.[/quote]

By my logic and my understanding of what happened, if the kids had planned on wearing white shirts as a form of harassment (or to imply some sort of white pride/anti-Mexican sentiment), had voiced their plan to do so, and then acted upon this, yes, the wearing of white shirts by students who had made clear that the shirts represented something would be offensive. I would not find the shirts themselves offensive but the way they are used would be.

These particular students were found to be offensive not by the mere presence of the flag. It was the students themselves who were being offensive. If I see a hammer on the table, I am not offended by it in any way. But if you pick it up and hit me with it, I am offended by your actions, not the hammer.

As for the KKK, I hear people decry their use of the flag all the time. Carrying the flag around with the clear implication that America is for whites only (or whatever the hell they are trying to imply) is an overtly offensive use of the flag to me and hopefully to you as well. But the flag itself is not offensive.

All I’m saying is that while the students should not have been suspended for exercising their 1st Amendment rights, the outcry I hear on this forum seems to be misguided. I have never said that the Hispanic students find the flag offensive; they find its use as an instrument of prejudice offensive, as do I. I hardly find the flag itself offensive or else I wouldn’t have two of them outside of my house and two more hanging up inside of it. Where most seem to see this as an outrage due to the students’ infringement upon their rights (which is indeed what it was in my opinion), I see poor use of those rights. Just because we have rights does not mean that every exercise of them is “patriotic” and I refuse to accept that this particular case was simply a bunch of kids expressing patriotism and love of America. It was an attempt to hide behind that banner while really voicing anti-Hispanic sentiment

106

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Nationalism/jingoism. Potentially right-wing. I grew up associating that whole mindset with fascism and violence. My split-second reaction is “Those people will beat me up.” Of course, thinking rationally from experience, that’s not always the case… it’s just the first instinct.[/quote]
Well I’m certainly thrilled to hear that people who display the symbol of our country are not “always” violent fascists lol. It does sadden me though that this was your “first instinct”. This country has labored under all the human foibles that have plagued man since the beginning, but we have freed, fed and advanced more people than every other nation in history combined. That is my first grateful instinct upon viewing the stars n stripes.[/quote]

I know we have a lot to be grateful for in this country. And a lot to be proud of. That’s more important than the little cultural differences, and I do have my priorities straight. Just thought folks around here might be interested to know that not everybody has the same associations with prominently displayed American flags.

I’ve never liked the practice of sending kids home for “offensive” clothing in general. It’s all so arbitrary. If they were worried the kids would start a fight, give that as the reason for sending them home… or wait to see if they actually do anything aggressive. I went to a school where teachers were very eager to forbid “offensive” language or clothing, particularly culturally offensive stuff. The result was that the “bad” kids acted out by using racist slurs. Making a big deal of it is bad psychology.

107

[quote]AlisaV wrote:I know we have a lot to be grateful for in this country. And a lot to be proud of. That’s more important than the little cultural differences, and I do have my priorities straight. Just thought folks around here might be interested to know that not everybody has the same associations with prominently displayed American flags.[/quote]And I asked so fair enough. I have had no such experiences with those who prominently display American flags despite having lived in 5 states and traveled in quite a few others, but that doesn’t mean I’m doubting that you have. I’m not faulting you for an honest answer I asked for myself. I guess what saddens me then is that your experience has been what it is. Our flag, or the statue of liberty or the bald eagle do not stand for “beating people up” and shame on those who would misrepresent it as such.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:I’ve never liked the practice of sending kids home for “offensive” clothing in general. It’s all so arbitrary. If they were worried the kids would start a fight, give that as the reason for sending them home… or wait to see if they actually do anything aggressive. I went to a school where teachers were very eager to forbid “offensive” language or clothing, particularly culturally offensive stuff. The result was that the “bad” kids acted out by using racist slurs. Making a big deal of it is bad psychology.[/quote]When I attended large suburban not particularly conservative public schools not all that terribly long ago I wasn’t even aware of any specific dress code. I’m sure there was something somewhere, but it never came up that I can recall. No need I guess.

108

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I have a friend whose sister is a teacher at the school in question and according to her there is more to the story than meets the eye. Apparently, these students have a long history of incendiary behavior toward ethnic minorities. They’ve never been suspended before or received any other major form of punishment for this behavior in the past (to her knowledge; she’s only been there 2 years), but it is well-known throughout the school that these kids are fairly vocal for their dislike of the Mexican students, specifically those whose parents are immigrants (illegal or otherwise).

This teacher has also heard (admittedly a rumor) that the students had planned ahead of time to wear this clothing in an attempt to spark some sort of confrontation with the Mexican students. Whether this meant a fight or something more mundane is unknown. The fact that one of them is apparently of partially Hispanic descent is somewhat paradoxical.

I don’t like the fact that kids were sent home for wearing the American flag at all. But if what I have heard from a reliable source is true, then the kids were sent home more for their own protection and those of other students than as a form of anti-American totalitarianism. If the kids had worn any other type of shirt that was purposefully provocative in nature, the same thing would have happened. It’s a shame that they chose to wear the old Stars and Stripes in an attempt to spark controversy, but that’s apparently exactly what they’ve done. Given their history and the day that they all wore this clothing, the students may have been expressing their right to freedom of speech, but this particular avenue was not really about being “American”. It’s not for me to say what our freedoms should and should not be used for, but it seems to me that to use the freedom of speech to inconspicuously spread hate or racism or to denounce another citizens’ cultural heritage is a misuse of such freedom.

This isn’t an immigration issue whatsoever, nor is it a “what’s wrong with America because of liberalism” issue. This is simply an example of a couple allegedly racist kids trying to spark controversy and then calling it patriotism. I think it was the great Thomas Jefferson who said that patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels. Sinclair Lewis once said that when fascism arrives in America, it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
[/quote]

Sorry, not going to take the word of your friend’s sister as a good source. If what you had said was true the school would have made a statement or any of those Mexican kids would have said that to the media.

The school district admits that the Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez was wrong in his actions. This school district would happily have some mud to sling at the kids if it were true.

The school was wrong. The kids had every right and I think next Cinco de Mayo will be interesting.

The 4th of July is coming up. I bet the Mexican kids tote out all their Mexican flags and there will be no repercussions and Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez will back them completely.

109

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Nationalism/jingoism. Potentially right-wing. I grew up associating that whole mindset with fascism and violence. My split-second reaction is “Those people will beat me up.” Of course, thinking rationally from experience, that’s not always the case… it’s just the first instinct.[/quote]
Well I’m certainly thrilled to hear that people who display the symbol of our country are not “always” violent fascists lol. It does sadden me though that this was your “first instinct”. This country has labored under all the human foibles that have plagued man since the beginning, but we have freed, fed and advanced more people than every other nation in history combined. That is my first grateful instinct upon viewing the stars n stripes.[/quote]

I know we have a lot to be grateful for in this country. And a lot to be proud of. That’s more important than the little cultural differences, and I do have my priorities straight. Just thought folks around here might be interested to know that not everybody has the same associations with prominently displayed American flags.

I’ve never liked the practice of sending kids home for “offensive” clothing in general. It’s all so arbitrary. If they were worried the kids would start a fight, give that as the reason for sending them home… or wait to see if they actually do anything aggressive. I went to a school where teachers were very eager to forbid “offensive” language or clothing, particularly culturally offensive stuff. The result was that the “bad” kids acted out by using racist slurs. Making a big deal of it is bad psychology.[/quote]

I completely disagree with you about the clothing. I have no idea where you live, but no kid should wear a beer endorsement, porn clothing, or profanity and it is good policy of the schools to ban gang colors.

For you to have negative associations with the flag, crying shame.

For any military reading this forum, thank you for your sacrifice.

110

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

…If we were in Germany for instance, wearing the German flag is not incendiary at all. But wearing it to school on Yom Kippur of all days at a school that is predominantly Jewish, when you are known to some as an anti-Semite, is not patriotism and neither was this incident. It’s simply juvenile, possibly racist behavior cloaked in “patriotism”…[/quote]

Ahhhhh…comparing American kids wearing an American flag in an American school on Cinco de Mayo to German kids flouting their Nazi heritage to Jews in Germany? Is this because America gassed, shot and starved six million Mexican-Americans as recently as 65 years ago? Is that it?

What a totally fuckin worthless failed analogy if I ever saw one.[/quote]

I’m not trying to equate one example with the other. The analogy is simply another example how the use of a flag can be seen as offensive to some without the flag itself being viewed as offensive. Stronghold had a hard time making the distinction between the two and I guess you did as well. While I am not one of them, there are some who would erroneously compare the atrocities committed by Nazis to the treatment of Mexicans by America. That would be absurd. But it does not negate the fact that an otherwise harmless symbol, whether it be a flag, a logo, the Bat Signal, etc etc can be used in a way that is offensive without the symbol being offensive in and of itself. What a totally fucking worthless failed evaluation of an argument on your part if I ever saw one.

To October Girl: my “source” is not unimpeachable by any stretch. However, since the students have sued the school, there is a very real likelihood that both sides have kept quiet about the students’ alleged motives because of legal advice to do so. Even if this was not the case and they remained silent, this does not indicate at all that the students did not have more sinister motives. A lack of evidence is not evidence whatsoever. And I can guarantee you that there won’t be any Mexicans in Morgan Hill or anywhere in the area marching down the streets with Mexican flags everywhere on the 4th of July.

111

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

To October Girl: my “source” is not unimpeachable by any stretch. However, since the students have sued the school, there is a very real likelihood that both sides have kept quiet about the students’ alleged motives because of legal advice to do so. Even if this was not the case and they remained silent, this does not indicate at all that the students did not have more sinister motives. A lack of evidence is not evidence whatsoever. And I can guarantee you that there won’t be any Mexicans in Morgan Hill or anywhere in the area marching down the streets with Mexican flags everywhere on the 4th of July. [/quote]

DB, if you read my post, I also mentioned that none of the students interviewed by the media said that the students had previously exhibited any racist behavior. They said on that day they felt disrespected. The students are not encumbered at all from speaking due to any foreseeable lawsuit. Yet they could not cite another incident for any of the students.

A lack of evidence most of the time means… there is no evidence. ESPECIALLY when one side is trying to prove that point.

You cannot guarantee anything about what will happen on the 4th of July. I am of the opinion there will be Mexican flags waving and being worn. We will just have to wait and see.

113

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

…I’m not trying to equate one example with the other. The analogy is simply another example how the use of a flag can be seen as offensive to some without the flag itself being viewed as offensive. Stronghold had a hard time making the distinction between the two and I guess you did as well. While I am not one of them, there are some who would erroneously compare the atrocities committed by Nazis to the treatment of Mexicans by America. That would be absurd. But it does not negate the fact that an otherwise harmless symbol, whether it be a flag, a logo, the Bat Signal, etc etc can be used in a way that is offensive without the symbol being offensive in and of itself. What a totally fucking worthless failed evaluation of an argument on your part if I ever saw one… [/quote]

No matter how you slice and dice it you cannot make any kind of a case that the US flag can be used…within the USA…“in a way that is offensive without the symbol being offensive in and of itself.” Don’t get me wrong…you’re trying real hard to make your case…but you’re full of fermented amber waves of grain.[/quote]

I have a feeling it has more to do with what Alisa was referring to earlier. The notion that certain parts of our popular culture instill in young people that displaying the flag indicates that you are a violent, bigoted neanderthal. I guess American is the new white guilt.

DB, I had no problem understanding what you were saying. I had a problem agreeing with what you were saying because it was stupid.

115

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

…I’m not trying to equate one example with the other. The analogy is simply another example how the use of a flag can be seen as offensive to some without the flag itself being viewed as offensive. Stronghold had a hard time making the distinction between the two and I guess you did as well. While I am not one of them, there are some who would erroneously compare the atrocities committed by Nazis to the treatment of Mexicans by America. That would be absurd. But it does not negate the fact that an otherwise harmless symbol, whether it be a flag, a logo, the Bat Signal, etc etc can be used in a way that is offensive without the symbol being offensive in and of itself. What a totally fucking worthless failed evaluation of an argument on your part if I ever saw one… [/quote]

No matter how you slice and dice it you cannot make any kind of a case that the US flag can be used…within the USA…“in a way that is offensive without the symbol being offensive in and of itself.” Don’t get me wrong…you’re trying real hard to make your case…but you’re full of fermented amber waves of grain.[/quote]

Do you mean to tell me that it’s impossible to use the flag in a way that is offensive without also being offended by the flag itself? If so, that’s asinine. I in no way at all am offended by the flag in any way, but if someone were to burn the flag in front of me for any reason whatsoever, I would be offended by that action. Wouldn’t you be offended by this in some way?

As for Chushin’s comparison, talk about comparing apples to screwdrivers…

117

FWIW I remember as a kid when wearing the flag in certain ways was considered to be disrespectful. Patches on the seat of you pants, certain items of clothing etc. Take this for what’s it worth in context of 30-40 years ago.

118

[quote]tom63 wrote:
FWIW I remember as a kid when wearing the flag in certain ways was considered to be disrespectful. Patches on the seat of you pants, certain items of clothing etc. Take this for what’s it worth in context of 30-40 years ago.[/quote]

But that was being different, it was considered disrespectful to the flag and to America, The majority of people participating in the cinco de mayo celebration have no respect for this country,

119

[quote]tom63 wrote:
FWIW I remember as a kid when wearing the flag in certain ways was considered to be disrespectful. Patches on the seat of you pants, certain items of clothing etc. Take this for what’s it worth in context of 30-40 years ago.[/quote]

They were sent home because wearing the flag of the U.S. at a publicly funded by U.S. tax payers school because they were disrespecting a mexican holiday being celebrated for some unknown reason at a U.S. school.

When do we get to start celebrating Bastille Day?

keep on point.

120

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
FWIW I remember as a kid when wearing the flag in certain ways was considered to be disrespectful. Patches on the seat of you pants, certain items of clothing etc. Take this for what’s it worth in context of 30-40 years ago.[/quote]

They were sent home because wearing the flag of the U.S. at a publicly funded by U.S. tax payers school because they were disrespecting a mexican holiday being celebrated for some unknown reason at a U.S. school.

When do we get to start celebrating Bastille Day?

keep on point.

[/quote]

II understand this and it is on point, but there are specific rules for the display of the flag and what many people consider positive now might be technically against those rules.

That being said, this is pretty heinous. and very offensive to me.